Ron’s New System

[bonzo75]

Through my desktop computer speakers, the bass sounds over emphasized, the top end emphasized and middle is under-emphasized.

Yes there is a bass bump which I think Ron has alluded to earlier he has in the room.

 

[morricab]

Through my desktop computer speakers, the bass sounds over emphasized, the top end emphasized and middle is under-emphasized. It does not seem like a single frequency issue, but one of overall balance. I don't know what others are hearing, but the effect here is not subtle.

Fwiw, I heard a similar result (poor balance) from a recording I made with a particular inexpensive phone. The video and the in-room experience were quite different. Re-recording with a different, more expensive phone yielded a better representation of what I hear in-room. It appears not all phones are equal for recording.

If you obect to less than enthusiastic critique I won't comment further.

And by coincidence...your desktop computer speakers have a midbass bump, a mid suck out and a "sparkly" treble...

With my bass an treble shy work headphones (they are more for speech and thus mid-centric) it doesn't sound as unbalanced as you are saying with your speakers.

 

[Argonaut]

And by coincidence...your desktop computer speakers have a midbass bump, a mid suck out and a "sparkly" treble...

With my bass a treble shy work headphones (they are more for speech and thus mid-centric) it doesn't sound as unbalanced as you are saying with your speakers.

I concur, imho the use of good cans or IE’s simulates the recorded event more accurately and to some extent the room in which it was recorded.

 

[tima]

Yes there is a bass bump which I think Ron has alluded to earlier he has in the room.

I'm describing what I hear. You said it sounds very good. Brad uses headphones to compensate. What do you listen with?

 

[bonzo75]

I'm describing what I hear. You said it sounds very good. Brad uses headphones to compensate. What do you listen with?

I still think it sounds very good. It is dynamic, has immediacy, and good tone. The bass bump has been recognized before. It is not a reference track for me, so I can’t say what is different in other systems.

To what I listen on, I answered that here

Videos of Acoustically-Coupled Audio Recordings

I noticed today what I consider to be a new high in absurdity regarding cellphone videos of audio systems: Thinking that one can compare accurately or meaningfully in a completely unfamiliar system in a completely unfamiliar room the sound of analog tape playback of an original analog recording...

www.whatsbestforum.com

 

[bonzo75]

this is much better

 

[tima]

To what I listen on, I answered that here

I have always been streaming to a naim boombox since 2019

Is that a Naim Mu-so v2 ?

 

[bonzo75]

Is that a Naim Mu-so v2 ?

yes

 

[bonzo75]

this is much better

 

[PeterA]

Yes there is a bass bump which I think Ron has alluded to earlier he has in the room.

Yes, and Ron also describes a brightness to the sound in room on vinyl not tape. I hear it on his tape videos. What I do not understand is the difference I hear from the videos on three different devices and the measurements he has posted, particularly the high frequencies.

I give Ron a lot of credit for posting these videos. Ron is one of the guys here who has been very open sharing his opinion about their uselessness.

 

[PeterA]

To address the serious problem of the 60Hz room boom bump (you can hear it in probably every one of the videos I have posted) I have special-ordered from Acoustic Sciences Corp. two TubeTraps with built-in Helmholtz resonators which will be tuned to 60Hz.

These are not efficient, large, freestanding Helmholtz resonators. But they have the effect of significantly increasing the Q of the bass absorption function above that of a regular Isothermal TubeTrap.

Separately, I am still awaiting a demo of the PSI AVAA devices.

View attachment 106823

Ron, If you have not experimented yet with moving your listening seat fore and aft and measuring below 300 Hz the way Jim Smith does for smoothest bass response, how do you know you can’t solve your LF balance issue without getting more acoustic treatments? You could start there. It is easy and should take less than an hour.

 

[bonzo75]

Yes, and Ron also describes a brightness to the sound in room on vinyl not tape. I hear it on his tape videos. What I do not understand is the difference I hear from the videos on three different devices and the measurements he has posted, particularly the high frequencies.

I give Ron a lot of credit for posting these videos. Ron is one of the guys here who has been very open sharing his opinion about their uselessness.

I did not hear brightness on the take 5 video.

Yes Ron gets credit for posting his videos. Especially given that he is/was is a non-believer, he has forum spirit

 

[Ron Resnick]

Through my desktop computer speakers, the bass sounds over emphasized, the top end emphasized and middle is under-emphasized. It does not seem like a single frequency issue, but one of overall balance. I don't know what others are hearing, but the effect here is not subtle.

Fwiw, I heard a similar result (poor balance) from a recording I made with a particular inexpensive phone. The video and the in-room experience were quite different. Re-recording with a different, more expensive phone yielded a better representation of what I hear in-room. It appears not all phones are equal for recording.

If you obect to less than enthusiastic critique I won't comment further.

Enthusiastic critique always is welcome! (Although I find enthusiastic in-the-room critique of vastly greater probative value than remote video critique.)

I am hearing largely the same thing as you and as Peter in direction, but not in amplitude, so to speak.

In other words I hear clearly in the room the bass bump around 60Hz. It's an audible boom which masks texture and detail somewhat above and somewhat below that frequency. (In fact the reason I started with the real time analyzer measurements is because I subjectively heard early on the 60Hz room boom myself.) This is definitely a mechanical problem to be solved with a mechanical solution.

Subjectively, the bass frequencies should not be drawing attention to themselves, but I am not personally looking for a subjectively perceived flat bass response.

The ribbon drivers put out a lot of energy, more energy than the Magnepan 1.6s. Some visitors are perceiving this as a little bit bright in the upper midrange, other visitors are not. I am perceiving it as a little bit bright in the upper midrange, especially on LP. I hear it as a touch shrill on certain piano key licks.

Ideally, for my ears, I will be able to dampen some of this upper midrange energy. I would like to nudge lower the perceived sonic center of gravity of the system. This is where loudspeaker toe-in experimentation (although such experimentation so far has suggested that the sound doesn't change very much) and some acoustic treatment experimentation, and maybe some amplifier tube swapping, will come in.

No loudspeaker is perfect, in my opinion. These speakers are never going to have the upper bass/lower midrange sonic center of gravity we hear and like from David's Bionors. There are specific reasons I prefer panels in general and these speakers in particular to Bionors and to other vintage loudspeakers which have a similar (and very natural to my ears) upper bass/lower midrange sonic center of gravity. And yet as natural as those loudspeakers sound, I sometimes can't avoid the nagging sense that "something is missing."

In summary, the bass emphasis is an objective problem needing fixing. Specifically, I would like to shave off that 5dB bump circled in red. The upper midrange energy is more subjective and more complicated. I and others hear it more on LP than on tape. Ideally, I will be able to tamp it down a little bit.

 

[Ron Resnick]

I'm posting these videos only because y'all seem to find it fun!

 

[morricab]

Enthusiastic critique always is welcome! (Although I find enthusiastic in-the-room critique of vastly greater probative value than remote video critique.)

I am hearing largely the same thing as you and as Peter in direction, but not in amplitude, so to speak.

In other words I hear clearly in the room the bass bump around 60Hz. It's an audible boom which masks texture and detail somewhat above and somewhat below that frequency. (In fact the reason I started with the real time analyzer measurements is because I subjectively heard early on the 60Hz room boom myself.) This is definitely a mechanical problem to be solved with a mechanical solution.

Subjectively, the bass frequencies should not be drawing attention to themselves, but I am not personally looking for a subjectively perceived flat bass response.

The ribbon drivers put out a lot of energy, more energy than the Magnepan 1.6s. Some visitors are perceiving this as a little bit bright in the upper midrange, other visitors are not. I am perceiving it as a little bit bright in the upper midrange, especially on LP. I hear it as a touch shrill on certain piano key licks.

Ideally, for my ears, I will be able to dampen some of this upper midrange energy. I would like to nudge lower the perceived sonic center of gravity of the system. This is where loudspeaker toe-in experimentation (although such experimentation so far has suggested that the sound doesn't change very much) and some acoustic treatment experimentation, and maybe some amplifier tube swapping, will come in.

No loudspeaker is perfect, in my opinion. These speakers are never going to have the upper bass/lower midrange sonic center of gravity we hear and like from David's Bionors. There are specific reasons I prefer panels in general and these speakers in particular to Bionors and to other vintage loudspeakers which have a similar (and very natural to my ears) upper bass/lower midrange sonic center of gravity. And yet as natural as those loudspeakers sound, I sometimes can't avoid the nagging sense that "something is missing."

In summary, the bass emphasis is an objective problem needing fixing. Specifically, I would like to shave off that 5dB bump circled in red. The upper midrange energy is more subjective and more complicated. I and others hear it more on LP than on tape. Ideally, I will be able to tamp it down a little bit.

Can you play with the crossover frequency of the sub towers? maybe moving it up a bit in frequency would help if you can do that? I crossed my BGs at 300 Hz because I found that preferrable to 200hz from a fullness perspective. I also tried 500 Hz but then I lost a significant amount of clarity and went back to 300.

 

[christoph]

I am still awaiting a demo of the PSI AVAA devices.

I'm really curious about your findings on these

 

[morricab]

I'm really curious about your findings on these

I was not totally convinced by the demos I heard of this tech at Klangschlosss, you?

 

[Final]

Hi Ron, first of all congrats with getting your top class setup, up and running. I have read your whole thread over the past three days. Very enjoyable and interesting to read. Thanks so much for sharing. I have played your Take five video on my living room set up which in short consists of full range conventional loudspeakers and quite transparent SS amplification.

FWIW I hear a wide soundstage with great instrument separation. I can hear no brightness whatsoever. I can hear your 60 Hz peak, and tried to correct it with digital EQ at 60 HZ. That did not unmask any detail and I got subjectively better results with reducing the overall bass level below 200 Hz with 3 to 4 db. However trying to translate your sound to my living room comes with numerous sources of error. It`s still fun. From what I hear and see on your posted graph I suspect your system sounds slightly warmer than neutral.

Best regards
Christian

 

[PeterA]

Ron, have you made measurements by playing pink noise from an LP or just through your DAC/streamer?

 

[christoph]

I was not totally convinced by the demos I heard of this tech at Klangschlosss, you?

I never heard them, that's why I ask.
Would be nice to place little (active) boxes around instead of gigantic (passive) corner absorbers