More Consensus That Streaming Is An Inferior Format & Not High End?

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IMO with the right Transport, red book still sounds better than most streaming. Not by much, but still better.

Stay tuned in the coming months for our streaming shootout between Taiko Audio Extreme, Aurender NA30SA, and Grimm MU1. I’m excited about the outcome!
Hi Joe = That’s my kind of shootout! As far as the Taiko Extreme goes I hope you are able to use their UI (XDMS) which provides a great improvement SQ-wise over Roon. Also, their just released switch and router will provide generous boosts in SQ, as well.
 
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I may yet… but my lack of focus and my endless need to edit my pass fail read/write function does make posting about the conceptual heavy stuff like classical music appreciation here in Audiophileland (the dry version of Waterworld) fairly exhausting o_O Lol

I was simply responding to your writing this ...

I’ve been going through performances of the Brahms piano concertos and in the process have learnt so much about Brahms, about a whole range of pianists and conductors, about why and what it is I love about the piano and orchestra and why certain composers and certain music resonates through me… having a system that makes accessing dozens of performances viable is simply what has made fantastic moments of growth and understanding possible for me. I absolutely love gear and have spent 5 decades obsessively learning about it but in the end it’s all about the quality of the music library for me.

I thought you might go beyond the process to the substance. I do understand.
 
I was simply responding to your writing this ...



I thought you might go beyond the process to the substance. I do understand.
Yes, I understood what you had asked Tim. It’s just when I get time and feel into writing more about it maybe. For me it would require more of an essay if I wanted to detail it up and that seems an awful lot of work atm when I can spend the energy and that time listening to Brahms instead of writing about it… I know you have said often we should discuss more about the music but other than Marty few have spent much energy on it… I occasionally mention preferences in performances but rarely go to deeply into it because the clear focus is audiophile rather than musicophile here.
 
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Yes, I understood what you had asked Tim. It’s just when I get time and feel into writing more about it maybe. For me it would require more of an essay if I wanted to detail it up and that seems an awful lot of work atm when I can spend the energy and that time listening to Brahms instead of writing about it… I know you have said often we should discuss more about the music but other than Marty few have spent much energy on it… I occasionally mention preferences in performances but rarely go to deeply into it because the clear focus is audiophile rather than musicophile here.

Graham, I see @tima also suggesting that we describe what we hear when listening and critiquing. How does a component or a change to system set up affect the sound of the cello or clarinet or chorus? Are we more aware of the balance between a tone’s fundamental and harmonics, the string texture or hollowness of the wooden body, the air blowing over the reed, or the number of individual voices on stage and the weight of the baritone?

We often simply write that the background is blacker or distortion is lower or the system’s dynamics have improved, or we hear more detail. Are these ways of describing things very useful to the reader?

I think Tim is asking us to describe more clearly what we hear in terms of sound and how that effects the way the music is presented to us in the room.
 
Yes, I understood what you had asked Tim. It’s just when I get time and feel into writing more about it maybe. For me it would require more of an essay if I wanted to detail it up and that seems an awful lot of work atm when I can spend the energy and that time listening to Brahms instead of writing about it… I know you have said often we should discuss more about the music but other than Marty few have spent much energy on it… I occasionally mention preferences in performances but rarely go to deeply into it because the clear focus is audiophile rather than musicophile here.
It's kind of homework now Graham, get cracking ! ;)
 
I think Tim is asking us to describe more clearly what we hear in terms of sound and how that effects the way the music is presented to us in the room.

It's kind of homework now Graham, get cracking ! ;)


It's alright, I don't think he's into it at the moment and we should not concern further. I honestly don't want this to be a big deal for anyone. The comfort level between talking about music and talking about sonics is too large at FWB.


 
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It's alright, I don't think he's into it at the moment and we should not concern further. I honestly don't want this to be a big deal for anyone. The comfort level between talking about music and talking about sonics is too large at FWB.

Yes. My comment was not directed at Graham specifically but at all of us in general, including many reviewers. In other words, I agree with the point you are making about writing.
 
i feel the exact opposite. i never had any music education, don't possess the knowledge or vocabulary to understand or describe the nuances of music structure. but i feel that does not get in my way whatsoever to enjoy classical music, it's 70% of my listening. 30 years ago it was zero. i like some recordings more than others, because the experience is better. i know what i like, but not why entirely. and i'm fine with it.

streaming has increased my classical percentage and exposure to all types of classical and expanded my musical horizons and increased my times of exploring something new.

i do appreciate those who can describe things, and it's helpful when aspects of the performance are pointed out that are significant.

and i do compare versions of classical pieces, and have an interest in which are the best to me. part of it is sonics, part of it is the flow and emotive content. where it takes me. so the dog always ate my homework. i'll not feel any guilt of lacking in my circumstances, even while i do appreciate those with greater knowledge. i would prefer knowing more, but don't feel less musically satisfied in my own personal way. and it's nice no one expects more of me. really. maybe Graham seems like he would be one to know more, so more is expected. i could see that.
 
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i feel the exact opposite. i never had any music education, don't possess the knowledge or vocabulary to understand or describe the nuances of music structure. but i feel that does not get in my way whatsoever to enjoy classical music, it's 70% of my listening. 30 years ago it was zero. i like some recordings more than others, because the experience is better. i know what i like, but not why entirely. and i'm fine with it.

i do appreciate those who can describe things, and it's helpful when aspects of the performance are pointed out that are significant.

and i do compare versions of classical pieces, and have an interest in which are the best to me. part of it is sonics, part of it is the flow and emotive content. where it takes me. so the dog always ate my homework. i'll not feel any guilt of lacking in my circumstances, even while i do appreciate those with greater knowledge. i would prefer knowing more, but don't feel less musically satisfied in my own personal way. and it's nice no one expects more of me. really. maybe Graham seems like he would be one to know more, so more is expected. i could see that.

perfectly put. we should not pretend we are musical scholars on this forum. There are enough classical music forums to discuss that. It is very easy to hear better sonics on record. And while we might not have the capacity to distinguish between two very good performances, a good one can be distinguished from a poor one very easily. Apart from that, we can only keep listening and learning
 
All I am suggesting gentlemen is that when we attempt to share our listening impressions with others after something we have changed in our system like a component or a cable or speaker placement or something, I personally find it more helpful to me to understand the change someone is trying to describe if they talk about what they actually hear in terms of sonics with the instruments whatever they may be. I can relate to someone describing the sound of a piano or a voice or a guitar. I want to know more than it simply sounds more dynamic or the noise floor has been lowered or I am more emotionally engaged. That does not tell me how the new footer or isolation platform changes the sound of the instrument that the owner hears from his system change.

it is simply a request. People can ignore it of course. I simply prefer more descriptive language when trying to convey meaning and experience. It’s no big deal and it’s not a request to go out and learn about music structure or more about classical music. It was not my intention to imply that.
 
All I am suggesting gentlemen is that when we attempt to share our listening impressions with others after something we have changed in our system like a component or a cable or speaker placement or something, I personally find it more helpful to me to understand the change someone is trying to describe if they talk about what they actually hear in terms of sonics with the instruments whatever they may be. I can relate to someone describing the sound of a piano or a voice or a guitar. I want to know more than it simply sounds more dynamic or the noise floor has been lowered or I am more emotionally engaged. That does not tell me how the new footer or isolation platform changes the sound of the instrument that the owner hears from his system change.

it is simply a request. People can ignore it of course. I simply prefer more descriptive language when trying to convey meaning and experience. It’s no big deal and it’s not a request to go out and learn about music structure or more about classical music. It was not my intention to imply that.
i try to do my best. when i do that, i'm staying in my lane. i can't be Marty, or Tima, or Joel Durand. not that i don't completely appreciate what they might contribute. and glad when they do. maybe i'll learn something, whether about the specific music, or about the way to view it.

but i'm not ignoring those who might want more from me.
 
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i'm not ignoring those who might want more from me.

Avid Invictus, Acoustical Systems Astellar to start with - good to compare next to Esoteric while learning how to write about music
 
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Avid Invictus, Acoustical Systems Astellar to start with - good to compare next to Esoteric while learning how to write about music

Bonzo, you do not need to describe how other people’s systems sound. You post videos of them so others can hear for themselves. You can stay in your lane with jokes and food reviews. (Smiley, wink)
 
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i try to do my best. when i do that, i'm staying in my lane. i can't be Marty, or Tima, or Joel Durand. not that i don't completely appreciate what they might contribute. and glad when they do. maybe i'll learn something, whether about the specific music, or about the way to view it.

but i'm not ignoring those who might want more from me.

I give you credit Mike for being open and saying that. No expectations were set when I asked Graham "what did you learn" after he waxed on and off about hearing Brahms concertos; Bonzo the contrarian runs to the extreme talking about scholarship. It was a simple question. Nobody asked about 'musical structure' or required an education in music. If people are unable or unwilling to describe what they hear when listening to music from their stereos, so be it. It's not a test. From my perspective describing what one hears listening to music brings a more personal, more realistic touch to the conversation that the vague sonic generalizations of 'more of this, more of that' do not. At least it is not analog v digital, streaming v CDs, whining about videos, dac of the week, etc.
 
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Hp is in the reviewer's hall of fame for describing what he could hear. No easy task to be sure.
 
I think lots of guys including Roy Gregory try to often use music in it. Does not mean I trust what they write. At the end of the day, if I trust someone, the first thing I looked for is if he has liked it or not. The why can be interesting to read, but at the end of the day if he is an experienced gear listener who uses classical for audition, he would like something because one is more appealing to his auditory template while the other is not. If both are very good, then writing one did this and the other did that is a bit pointless except for entertainment. If two things are very good, listen for yourself, and if you too find them both excellent, pick the best value if budget is a constraint or both if it isn't.

I did a search on my reports since 2016 and found quickly, over the mobile, a few things I am extracting, where I use the music on the record for expressing sonics. But at the end of the day, while these were meant as a guide to how I listen, once that is clear, those who do look for pointers in my suggestion should just take it on the basis of if I like it or not.

Some excerpts from yamamura in 2018 -
"I have never heard bass trombone and tuba like with the Yamamuras. The midbass and bass is just amazing, in this seamless, crossoverless speaker. The other thing this system is the best at, is the swell of the music, the bloom, of even the smallest details. As music rises and falls, you can hear the system breathing. One of my favourites for this breathing effect is Bydlo, from Pictures at an Exhibition.

I have recently been hearing many comparisons on performances on some great violinists and pianists. However, I am not qualified to decide who is better – the way I judge is I put on the LP, and if it is a mix of a good recording, where the orchestra and the soloist sound are presented more like real life, and if I enjoy the performance musically, I take it. However, when Pietro put on a Heifetz Patigorsky concert on a simple RCA Red Seal SB, I realized why Heifetz was the greatest – every weight shift of the hand, the control, all that adds to musicality, was audible so clearly, unlike on any system I have heard. We could not take off my Rostropovich Richter Beethoven Sonatas on Philips ED2. On all piano that we heard, the pedals, the left, right hand, every shift was the most audible. Sure, pianists can always analyze this – I cannot. But here, you hear the musical lines these pedals and hands are making, and they take you away. Brass, Piano, Cello, due to the brilliant lack of crossover integration, are by far the best I have heard on any system."

from Mike's first report in 2016:

"On the Cello in the above recording the difference between the GFS and the Anna increased. Counterintuitive to Anna sounding better on the violin and the piano, the GFS was now the one sounding more nuanced. What the GFS was also doing, was that due to a lower noise floor, I was hearing a much wider band – try visualizing cello notes climbing up steps, and climbing down steps. The staircase with the GFS was sounding more extended at both ends, with more steps. Mike’s system was making this so visual."

From some valve compares:

"There was a sparkle around the Oboe, the chorals were projecting out more and decaying better, and the sound was embracing us.

However, the amps that distinctly stood out were the 14w Cube EL84 monos. They just added so much vigour, speed, and grip to the midrange – the violinist (Oistrakh) was playing with more fervor – and music had a life. The performance did not match the big Cantabille in the midbass and large dynamics

The 6L6g for me were too soft – and the piano notes on Winterreise and Emperor sounded the same, while with the EL34, each note had a distinct character, due to the entire timbre and top coming through."

Comparing Decca engineers:

"One had breath, concert hall ambience around the instruments, better sustain and decay. The other was hard, flat, no concert hall ambience, too piercing"

A recording label:

"This is a label that did use delimitters, so having a good dynamic range, one where the cello makes you soar, is extremely crucial."


I remember this listening clearly:

"Yesterday, I could have collapsed due to emotion on a few recordings. I heard Nathan Milstein and Erica Morini play Bach’s double violin concerto yesterday. I had heard this before on the BD4, where it had been good, but on the BD5, it was a few levels above. In the evening I heard Ann Sophie mutter and Maxim Vengerov play it live and was disappointed by the live (luckily this was followed up by Martha Argerich playing Schumann Piano Concerto and the Beethoven Eroica which were excellent). The same happened with Arpeggione, I have heard three performances here at the General’s that are so much superior to the one I heard live."

Here is Winterreise, a very average pressing on Melodiya but a great performance from the recently departed Peter Schreier with Richter, I prefer this to Dietrich Fischer Dieskau and Gerald Moore, as the latter is too closely miked while the Melodiya presssing on the Schreier is more real.

This was from Mike's visit 6 months ago:

"playing Joan Field’s Bruch Violin Concerto on Telefunken original, the extent to which the violin soars and the feel of the intensity of her play, with inner inflections of the violin, was clearly more audible on the Dava. The space on Sigiswald Kujiken’s harmonia mundi Chaconne was substantially higher with the Saskia Dava, while was missing with the Etsuro. For Scheherazade 4th movement on Classic records 45, it was a different ball game given the depth, drama, slams, bass, and contrasting textures for various instruments with the DaVa. The DaVa added a couple of layers of depth behind, more space, contrasts and textures in the various instruments, that ended up much more homogenized and flatter with the Etsuro presentations, also observed when we moved the Etsuro to the Saskia. Mike’s entire system raises up a couple of ante as you move to the 4th movement of this classic records 45 rpm, and the DaVa can showcase many more subtleties to the music that the Etsuro glosses over.
T
he nuance of the violin was relatively greater with the DaVa on the Bruch Scottish Fantasia Speaker’s Corner, as was the size of the stage. The micro and macro dynamic contrast on piano, especially the direct to disk Ikuyo Kumiya Beethoven Apassionata, was in DaVa’s favor, and was also played very well by the NVS Etsuro. I could go on with the Haitink direct to disc Bruckner 7th (third movement), and many others, where the resonance of the instruments, especially trombone and trumpets was more audible with the DaVa. The textures of the vocals and the feel of the hall on Melodiya Winterreise, the strike of the piano, the full rendering of the midbass and bass on the Magda Tagliaferro Electric Recording Company, the growl of the cellos. The DaVa is tonally dense and textured.
On jazz and blues, with the Count Basie (88 Basie Street) and Sonny Boy Williamson, I noticed more contrasts with the DaVa. Hendrix brings an intensity and complexity to the guitaring not very different from the violin on the Chaconne.
With DaVa, the jump on the same music is quite higher than with the Etsuro. The pppp to ffff jump makes you go whoa.

With the CS, one could listen for hours without fatigue. It seemed to be particularly good at string quartets by gliding through the instruments, and the stage between the speakers was filled in a nice way like it does with mono records. When such a presentation happens, you stop calculating left or right and your mind just relaxes with the coherence. "

From my Vyger report:

"A pivoted arm combo with the vdh strad is very nuanced and has fast transients as well, and as such appeals to those who look for such sound. The Vyger red sparrow was brilliant at the leading edge and playing down to the middle of the note highlighting the contrast and inflections of the notes. The differing textures across notes were more clear.

Now, when the Vyger is well set up, other points it separates from the rest – and one of the main reasons LT fans like LTs – is the lack of distortion in the highs. As violin escalates, it just goes up so cleanly, without distortion. Also, the music is effervescent – it just is there, with immediacy. This is the point that tips the scale for me.
The highs are more grainless, more nuanced, and continuity and flow is excellent. The space between the speakers is more coherent in sound like a mono.
The speed, cleanliness of transients, the pitch, the highs, the stretch of each note, the splitting of the strings, the nuance, this is what drives me to this beast. "

Finally, Tang’s report from 2018 was layered throughout with compares of records

https://zero-distortion.org/cessaro...merican-sound-sme-3012r-many-carts-much-more/
 
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I think lots of guys including Roy Gregory try to often use music in it. Does not mean I trust what they write. At the end of the day, if I trust someone, the first thing I looked for is if he has liked it or not. The why can be interesting to read, but at the end of the day if he is an experienced gear listener who uses classical for audition, he would like something because one is more appealing to his auditory template while the other is not. If both are very good, then writing one did this and the other did that is a bit pointless except for entertainment. If two things are very good, listen for yourself, and if you too find them both excellent, pick the best value if budget is a constraint or both if it isn't.

I did a search on my reports since 2016 and found quickly, over the mobile, a few things I am extracting, where I use the music on the record for expressing sonics. But at the end of the day, while these were meant as a guide to how I listen, once that is clear, those who do look for pointers in my suggestion should just take it on the basis of if I like it or not.

Some excerpts from yamamura in 2018 -
"I have never heard bass trombone and tuba like with the Yamamuras. The midbass and bass is just amazing, in this seamless, crossoverless speaker. The other thing this system is the best at, is the swell of the music, the bloom, of even the smallest details. As music rises and falls, you can hear the system breathing. One of my favourites for this breathing effect is Bydlo, from Pictures at an Exhibition.

I have recently been hearing many comparisons on performances on some great violinists and pianists. However, I am not qualified to decide who is better – the way I judge is I put on the LP, and if it is a mix of a good recording, where the orchestra and the soloist sound are presented more like real life, and if I enjoy the performance musically, I take it. However, when Pietro put on a Heifetz Patigorsky concert on a simple RCA Red Seal SB, I realized why Heifetz was the greatest – every weight shift of the hand, the control, all that adds to musicality, was audible so clearly, unlike on any system I have heard. We could not take off my Rostropovich Richter Beethoven Sonatas on Philips ED2. On all piano that we heard, the pedals, the left, right hand, every shift was the most audible. Sure, pianists can always analyze this – I cannot. But here, you hear the musical lines these pedals and hands are making, and they take you away. Brass, Piano, Cello, due to the brilliant lack of crossover integration, are by far the best I have heard on any system."

from Mike's first report in 2016:

"On the Cello in the above recording the difference between the GFS and the Anna increased. Counterintuitive to Anna sounding better on the violin and the piano, the GFS was now the one sounding more nuanced. What the GFS was also doing, was that due to a lower noise floor, I was hearing a much wider band – try visualizing cello notes climbing up steps, and climbing down steps. The staircase with the GFS was sounding more extended at both ends, with more steps. Mike’s system was making this so visual."

From some valve compares:

"There was a sparkle around the Oboe, the chorals were projecting out more and decaying better, and the sound was embracing us.

However, the amps that distinctly stood out were the 14w Cube EL84 monos. They just added so much vigour, speed, and grip to the midrange – the violinist (Oistrakh) was playing with more fervor – and music had a life. The performance did not match the big Cantabille in the midbass and large dynamics

The 6L6g for me were too soft – and the piano notes on Winterreise and Emperor sounded the same, while with the EL34, each note had a distinct character, due to the entire timbre and top coming through."

Comparing Decca engineers:

"One had breath, concert hall ambience around the instruments, better sustain and decay. The other was hard, flat, no concert hall ambience, too piercing"

A recording label:

"This is a label that did use delimitters, so having a good dynamic range, one where the cello makes you soar, is extremely crucial."


I remember this listening clearly:

"Yesterday, I could have collapsed due to emotion on a few recordings. I heard Nathan Milstein and Erica Morini play Bach’s double violin concerto yesterday. I had heard this before on the BD4, where it had been good, but on the BD5, it was a few levels above. In the evening I heard Ann Sophie mutter and Maxim Vengerov play it live and was disappointed by the live (luckily this was followed up by Martha Argerich playing Schumann Piano Concerto and the Beethoven Eroica which were excellent). The same happened with Arpeggione, I have heard three performances here at the General’s that are so much superior to the one I heard live."

Here is Winterreise, a very average pressing on Melodiya but a great performance from the recently departed Peter Schreier with Richter, I prefer this to Dietrich Fischer Dieskau and Gerald Moore, as the latter is too closely miked while the Melodiya presssing on the Schreier is more real.

This was from Mike's visit 6 months ago:

"playing Joan Field’s Bruch Violin Concerto on Telefunken original, the extent to which the violin soars and the feel of the intensity of her play, with inner inflections of the violin, was clearly more audible on the Dava. The space on Sigiswald Kujiken’s harmonia mundi Chaconne was substantially higher with the Saskia Dava, while was missing with the Etsuro. For Scheherazade 4th movement on Classic records 45, it was a different ball game given the depth, drama, slams, bass, and contrasting textures for various instruments with the DaVa. The DaVa added a couple of layers of depth behind, more space, contrasts and textures in the various instruments, that ended up much more homogenized and flatter with the Etsuro presentations, also observed when we moved the Etsuro to the Saskia. Mike’s entire system raises up a couple of ante as you move to the 4th movement of this classic records 45 rpm, and the DaVa can showcase many more subtleties to the music that the Etsuro glosses over.
T
he nuance of the violin was relatively greater with the DaVa on the Bruch Scottish Fantasia Speaker’s Corner, as was the size of the stage. The micro and macro dynamic contrast on piano, especially the direct to disk Ikuyo Kumiya Beethoven Apassionata, was in DaVa’s favor, and was also played very well by the NVS Etsuro. I could go on with the Haitink direct to disc Bruckner 7th (third movement), and many others, where the resonance of the instruments, especially trombone and trumpets was more audible with the DaVa. The textures of the vocals and the feel of the hall on Melodiya Winterreise, the strike of the piano, the full rendering of the midbass and bass on the Magda Tagliaferro Electric Recording Company, the growl of the cellos. The DaVa is tonally dense and textured.
On jazz and blues, with the Count Basie (88 Basie Street) and Sonny Boy Williamson, I noticed more contrasts with the DaVa. Hendrix brings an intensity and complexity to the guitaring not very different from the violin on the Chaconne.
With DaVa, the jump on the same music is quite higher than with the Etsuro. The pppp to ffff jump makes you go whoa.

With the CS, one could listen for hours without fatigue. It seemed to be particularly good at string quartets by gliding through the instruments, and the stage between the speakers was filled in a nice way like it does with mono records. When such a presentation happens, you stop calculating left or right and your mind just relaxes with the coherence. "

From my Vyger report:

"A pivoted arm combo with the vdh strad is very nuanced and has fast transients as well, and as such appeals to those who look for such sound. The Vyger red sparrow was brilliant at the leading edge and playing down to the middle of the note highlighting the contrast and inflections of the notes. The differing textures across notes were more clear.

Now, when the Vyger is well set up, other points it separates from the rest – and one of the main reasons LT fans like LTs – is the lack of distortion in the highs. As violin escalates, it just goes up so cleanly, without distortion. Also, the music is effervescent – it just is there, with immediacy. This is the point that tips the scale for me.
The highs are more grainless, more nuanced, and continuity and flow is excellent. The space between the speakers is more coherent in sound like a mono.
The speed, cleanliness of transients, the pitch, the highs, the stretch of each note, the splitting of the strings, the nuance, this is what drives me to this beast. "

Finally, Tang’s report from 2018 was layered throughout with compares of records

https://zero-distortion.org/cessaro...merican-sound-sme-3012r-many-carts-much-more/

Whadya mean ?
 
I did a search on my reports since 2016 and found quickly, over the mobile, a few things I am extracting, where I use the music on the record for expressing sonics.

There you go. Much better to attach sonic descriptions to actual recordings than not. It makes yr comments more specific and in your own words. No scholarship or musicological knowledge required -- you just need to identify the instruments.
 
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