Detailed Speaker Setup and Optimization
- Thread starter sbnx
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I would beg to differ on this one. I can absolutely tell when a speaker is off by that much. You gotta remember that 1/16" over the course of 10-20 feet adds up to quite a bit off. I laser align my speakers and whenever I am listening and something seems "off" with the imaging?
I'll check the measurements again. It has always boiled down to the speaker somehow moving....and not by much.
This is obviously speaker dependent though. Your ML's are not as sensitive toward directivity as my Tyler's. It usually takes me about 3 hours of meticulous measuring to get the speakers dialed in just the way I want them whenever they get moved. I measure just about every parameter possible and it does make quite the difference.
Tom
Yes. I meant 1 millimeter. Depending on the surface the speakers are sitting on and they type of foot it can be challenging to move the speaker in increments less than 1mm. But at some pont the process is simply bumping or tapping the speaker. But the speakers have to be close to ideal position before those super small adjustments are made. If the speakers are just roughtly put into a space and even have a central image bumping a speaker will not produce the sonic result expected.
Well stated Todd. I also don't understand that everytime I have or someone else has discussed the importance ofa proper setup that it turns into a shit show. I really believe that you are right and that most do not have the reference point and the arguement always turns into " we all hear differently" IMO that is not true as I have stated many times we are all blessed with the ability to hear ( almost all of us I mean no offense to those with hearing issues) but listening is a learned process and a skill that can be learned and improved. I really do not get why those spending really significant amounts of money for a high performance system refuse to do the tuning to get to the high performance area.This topic has been bounced around in several threads. More recently I have been documenting some of the setup steps I have been going through with the Avangarde Trios G3's. But since overall setup optimization is more general I thought I would post some information for the interested reader.
Over on his GY8 website Roy Gregory recently wrote a few pages about the setup of a pair of WIlson AlexxV along with the partnering CH Precision electronics. I have pasted the link below. The discussion starts at the bottom of page 5 and goes through page 8. I think Roy's discussion shines a light on two things.
First is the huge amount of effort some manufactures are putting into getting good sound at a show. It takes a lot of effort for all exhibitors to box the gear, ship it, get it to the room, unbox it, assemble the system to get sound and then put in some effort for a stereo presentation. But some really are going the extra mile in an attempt to illustrate what is possible with stereo reproduction. IMO this should be the norm and we should have fewer shows so all the manufacturers and dealers aren't completely exhausted from this effort. It pains me to listent to a pair of $100K+ speakers and a system the is approaching or well exceeding $500k that really doesn't sound all that great. Then you have the youtubers or reviewers writing about how good some of these systems sound. I am not sure exactly what they are listening to.
The second point he makes is the minute detail that is put into fully optimizing a pair of Wilson AlexxV speakers. For example, very few people and maybe only one person would loosen the gantry to make perfectly align it and retorque to spec. Then using a laser level to ensure that each module is perfectly level and aligned within the gantry. I believe most would simply "assemble" the speaker by putting the modules in place and connecting the terminals. This kind of attention to micro detail is what can really push the performance envelope of a system.
Hits (And Misses…) Munich High End – 2023 - Page 5 of 28 - Gy8
Updated 7th of June - TLA, Rockport and Clarysisgy8.eu
The article also discusses some of the very fine adjustments made to the speakers to get them perfectly aligned to the listener. By this I don't just mean the spike/ladder adjustments for the modules mentioned in the Wilson manual , but rather very, very small adjustemens in the attitude (Toe-in, Rake & Azimuth) of the oveall speaker. A few years ago I posted a survey on what people would consider a small movement to the speaker. Only a handfull of people responded to that and some of the posts following were fairly contensious. I am not sure why this is other than a lack of having the experience of witnessing the result. The answer I would give in the survey is that if you can see the speaker move it has likely moved too far. It still completely baffles me how going over to the speaker and giving it the smallest tap can alter the sound. And not just alter it, but change the sound in a very significant way. Of course this only happens when it gets to the pointly end of the stick in the setup process. At the start of the process movements do occur in increments of 1/2" to 1" but very quickly that drops to 1/4 to 1/16" and then to less than 1mm and then down to the point where one can not physically observe that the speaker moved. The way I relate to this is the higher up in frequency you go the shorter and shorter the wavelength gets. To adjust the time arrival at higher frequencies involves an ever decreasing size of adjustment. Roy is trying to convey this sense of "preciseness" in his article. However, it is very hard to understand unless someone has seen this being done and heard the sonic response.
But one doesn't have to go the Nth degree to get improved results in their setup. Roy wrote two articles about 10 years ago that help in providing a guide for those that want to improve their sound for free. I don't know if anyone has seen these so I am posting the links below. The first is a how-to guide that walks the reader through what the various adjustments are and what the expected sonic response is to that adjustment. The second is a write-up of of a demo he did at one of the audio shows (RMAF). In this article he writes about using a group of people as observers and judges for the sound. He then uses a few music selections and goes through the setup process showing the impact of each move. This process was pretty rough (meaning there were no super fine adjustments) and good results were still obtained.
I can't imagine spending $130K on a pair of speakers and not wanting them to perform at the absolute top end of what they are capable of with the given electronics and room. A lot of audiophiles are stopping far short of achieveing the full potential of their system. Perhaps this is becasue they have not heard a solid reference point. For example, I visited a dealer this past weekend and listened to the MBL extreme system. One of the things I listened to was that same piano section from Beethoven's first piano concerto that I recorded in the youtube video. The piano runs sounded completely smeared. Now, this is at a dealer and not a show. Why are they demo'ing a system that costs a gazillion dollars that has such poor sound quality? Again, I think it is becasue the industry as a whole has a poor reference point and we all have just been accepting subpar sound.
Throwing Open the Window on System Performance: Achieving Proper Speaker Placement - The Audio Beat - www.TheAudioBeat.com
read audio reviews, ratings, and user opinions on audio equipment before you buy an audio systemwww.theaudiobeat.com
As a note, I have no affiliation with these individuals other than I know who they are and I know their work. No one asked me to write this and I get no compensation in any form. The only intent of the post is for those interested in exploring the posibilites of increased performance through the very detailed process of speaker placement. Although, I will admit I did rant a little about dealers and poor setup of high end system.
I think the way the business works precludes this from happening for the vast majority of dealers and clients. THis is becasue most dealers simply carry to many products and do not have the expertice and the time to get the task done. This is not their fault in total just fact.
With the Wilson example everytime someone says they didnt like a Wilson demo the same line always comes out "well they weren't set up right"
Maybe that should be explored , lol but not by me.
Set up takes a lot of time, requires going form the rough to the fine, and it helps if you have a defined goal /reference point that one is trying to achieve.
Some poeple like doing this others wont and sadly many just cant. Investing in a guide for many is a great choice to at least show the path and get them close or very close. Just my opinion. Enjoy your system you obviously seem to enjoy the trip and I hope someday to hear those speakers as they were meant to be heard.
Elliot
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The Wilson demo issue is real. The full set up is customized for your ear height. Some dealers are really good… and some aren’t. If the dealer has good sales volume, they seem to leave them alone. But a bad dealer with poor sales volume will lose the franchise.
My most local dealer is not careful or committed to good demos. So for years I thought Wilson were just overhyped status symbols. The demos did not justify the price. I suspect they sold them to audio snobs rather than serious music lovers.
Then one day they finally had the Chronosonics dialed in, and I was both surprised and impressed. I ordered a pair of Sabrinas to experiment with at home. I spent time getting them right and was surprised again in my own system. So then I ordered a pair of Sasha DAWs. My local dealer is no set up wizard, so I did the necessary tweaking over the next two weeks. And again, I was surprised and impressed.
I “get” Wilson now … but I sure didn’t get them because of my local dealer.
I can recommend Paragon Sight and Sound in Ann Arbor. Their Wilson demos are always pretty good.
Thanks Elliot, I like your comment on defined goal/reference point. So many are focused on "different". Gear is bought and swapped becasue it is different. I used to do this as well so I am guilty as charged. Some like this and think it is fun. I don't have a problem with that at all. It is a hobby and we should all be having fun and enjoying it. But if the overall goal is to achieve musical engagement (within ones budget) then I think direction is way more important than different. Unless someone knows what is possible and what they want then often times a change in component can move one thing in the right direction but 10 things in the wrong direction. (Maybe 10 is an exaggeration)
Todd, I was very very lucky. I grew up in the NY city area and I was fortunate to have some great teachers. Audio then involved begin shown how to do something. I was taught/trained by many manufacturers and designers. There was far less product and every company wanted to train and teach. I was good friends with Jon Dahlquist who came over my house all the time. Lyric was the center of the high end universe back then and there was no shortage of opportunities to learn. HP showed me what set up was truly all about and how to listen. I would go to Sea Cliff and then come back and work on the systems at Lyric and in my home. The reference point really helped.
Once you listen to the differences you can move on. Today watch a guy like Stirling do his job is really interesting. He is meticulous and far more detail oriented than any dealer could ever be. This isnt their fault they dont have the time, many the skill and training and with the pressure on prices most lack the interest after they sell the "box"
As you know and have done this is a long term process. I have set up my system and reset up my system many times , because of shows etc and each time I learn more. I have developed some "tricks" for me in my room to do this faster but they still only get me in the area not to the final goal which is to be honest tedious and those miniscule movements and taps just take time there is no way to rush this. I think if you really want to get done you need to learn and then not be afraid to work on it yourself. No one wants someone to live in thier home and no one wants to live in someone else's home either. I know with my clients every time I visit I try to work and make it better ( if they allow me ) as I always have learned since the last visit.
IMO most don't do this and becasue of this they try to fix what they don't like by changing and changing and changing some more. THis is trying to fix a problem that they themselves may have created.
There is a huge difference in whats possible in a dedicated listening room and a family room and these really need to be addressed seperately and what realistic expectations can be achieved.
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I can absolutely and unequivocally attest to what Todd (@sbnx ) has written. It seemed to make no logical sense to me at all until I experienced it first hand in my own system. There was no financial exchange of any kind, so any sunk cost fallacy or cognitive bias are not in play here. I was simply open and curious, and ended up blown away by what I experienced.
My early exposure to the importance of precise setup to achieve speaker room coupling came from 2018 when I visited the Dali room at RMAF. It was a modestly priced system set up along the long wall of a very small hotel room with no room treatment. By all conventional wisdom it should not sound as good as it did, but I was really surprised to find it was one of the better sounding rooms I came across. Amazing bass from relatively small speakers and proper sound stage despite not having the room to pull the speaker out 6-10ft and listening position right in front of the back wall. When I asked the room owner how they achieved this, they told me they use a setup method that carefully finds the spot where the speaker couples to the room the most on bass, avoiding peaks and nulls at the listening position, then adjusting the speaker to accommodate any asymmetry caused by the room shape or furniture placement. The resulting speaker placement might not be perfectly symmetrical, but it provides the best timing and frequency results for the listener. Much later on, I was less surprised to find that is the foundation of many of the setup experts.
Fast forward to 2022, Todd came over to listen to my system, and suggested that the sound quality could be much improved just by speaker placement. I thought I had taken the effort to set it up correctly based on what I learned at a high level all those years ago. What I didn't know is the level of precision and nuance that goes into setting it up properly. At one point I mentioned to Todd that I still hear a sliver of brightness, then I watched with skepticism as he tapped on the right speaker which moved it an imperceptible amount, and the edge was taken off.
For those who are intellectually exploring this concept, it is all about speaker coupling to the room. Every room is of a different dimension, shape, and materials. The speaker on the bottom end needs to couple into the room at a spot that provides the most optimal bass behavior, while the rake and azimuth of the speaker needs to be precisely tuned to work with the reflection characteristics of the room as well. The most minute adjustment could mean the difference between the tweeter reflecting off the wall or bookshelf at an angle that creates time delayed ringing or that ringing completely missing the listener's ears.
Most dealers demo systems and show rooms are not properly setup, and the cause could be either lack of knowledge or simply uncondusive circumstances. To be fair, dealers' systems typically experience a lot of changes, people borrowing gear, customers wanting to hear different combinations, brands requesting their stuff be a part of the demo, so it can't be 100% optimal all the time. With that said, many dealers simply don't have the setup knowledge and experience to get the most out of their systems.
Lastly, it's also only fair to point out although every single system will benefit from proper setup, the higher level the system, the more pronounced the effects can be revealed. It's the same as cables and every other tweak. At the knife's edge, audio can be a surprising, unintuitive, and sometimes downright contradicting endeavor. Just as all those "engineers" ( I studied electrical engineering too) who swear up and down cables can't possibly make a difference, hearing is always believing.
My early exposure to the importance of precise setup to achieve speaker room coupling came from 2018 when I visited the Dali room at RMAF. It was a modestly priced system set up along the long wall of a very small hotel room with no room treatment. By all conventional wisdom it should not sound as good as it did, but I was really surprised to find it was one of the better sounding rooms I came across. Amazing bass from relatively small speakers and proper sound stage despite not having the room to pull the speaker out 6-10ft and listening position right in front of the back wall. When I asked the room owner how they achieved this, they told me they use a setup method that carefully finds the spot where the speaker couples to the room the most on bass, avoiding peaks and nulls at the listening position, then adjusting the speaker to accommodate any asymmetry caused by the room shape or furniture placement. The resulting speaker placement might not be perfectly symmetrical, but it provides the best timing and frequency results for the listener. Much later on, I was less surprised to find that is the foundation of many of the setup experts.
Fast forward to 2022, Todd came over to listen to my system, and suggested that the sound quality could be much improved just by speaker placement. I thought I had taken the effort to set it up correctly based on what I learned at a high level all those years ago. What I didn't know is the level of precision and nuance that goes into setting it up properly. At one point I mentioned to Todd that I still hear a sliver of brightness, then I watched with skepticism as he tapped on the right speaker which moved it an imperceptible amount, and the edge was taken off.
For those who are intellectually exploring this concept, it is all about speaker coupling to the room. Every room is of a different dimension, shape, and materials. The speaker on the bottom end needs to couple into the room at a spot that provides the most optimal bass behavior, while the rake and azimuth of the speaker needs to be precisely tuned to work with the reflection characteristics of the room as well. The most minute adjustment could mean the difference between the tweeter reflecting off the wall or bookshelf at an angle that creates time delayed ringing or that ringing completely missing the listener's ears.
Most dealers demo systems and show rooms are not properly setup, and the cause could be either lack of knowledge or simply uncondusive circumstances. To be fair, dealers' systems typically experience a lot of changes, people borrowing gear, customers wanting to hear different combinations, brands requesting their stuff be a part of the demo, so it can't be 100% optimal all the time. With that said, many dealers simply don't have the setup knowledge and experience to get the most out of their systems.
Lastly, it's also only fair to point out although every single system will benefit from proper setup, the higher level the system, the more pronounced the effects can be revealed. It's the same as cables and every other tweak. At the knife's edge, audio can be a surprising, unintuitive, and sometimes downright contradicting endeavor. Just as all those "engineers" ( I studied electrical engineering too) who swear up and down cables can't possibly make a difference, hearing is always believing.
Hugh and I went to visit Larry Marcus at Paragon a while back. Their XVX demo was excellent and Larry did such a great job. Paragon is perhaps one of the best dealers in the U.S.
Wilson Audio speakers (I've had three pair) do lock in with very fine adjustments, down to 1/8" in my experience in working with Jim Smith. It's really remarkable.
Set matters a much as anything. We should not let proper system setup become a lost art.
You were cetainly fortunate to be surrounded by people who would help you understand and grow in your appreciation of reproduced music.
It is hard. You have to go seek out this stuff with intent. No one today cares much for developing audiophiles. Even dealers will barely give young people that come into their store the time of day. (I hope you don't fall into this category) It seems that most auidophile are not even that curious and rather oblivious to what is missing. Very early on in my journey there was one person who tried to help me understand a few things. But most of what he told me went over my head. Now, I wish I had paid more attention ot him. I can remember him telling me things like "The speakers sound different if you put the spikes on dimes instead of pennies." I thought this guy was off his rocker. Back then I had just graduated and had way too much science in my head to believe this kind of thing. Or believe that power cords mattered or that power conditioners did anything except protect the gear from power surges. And, get this, I believed that bits are bits and that a transport didn't really matter much and neither did a digital cable. Wow! I was ignorant. (And still am about something that someone has yet to show me). What was really lacking was my ability to listen (As you pointed out) and hear things in an objective way. I learned things along the way that were key moments along the path. I mentioned earlier my experience with what articulate bass was supposted to sound like. At one point I experienced real soundstage and imaging with a pair of Avalon speakers. No dealer I had visited prior to that point had apparently taken the care to setup a pair of speakers even to the point of getting soundstage. Buying my first pair of Wilson speakers and having a "trained" dealer set them up taught me what attention to speaker placement could do. But it has been the time I spent with Stirling that has really taught me to listen and to trust my own ears. He also taught me the importance of micro detail in speaker setup. (Which is taking what the Wilson guy did and pushing it up several orders of magnitude).
My hope is that providing some of this informaton in this thread and talking about my experience setting up the Trios can at least provide some information for those curious and wanting a way to improve their music without spending a ton of money.
Always set up set up ,........excuses excuses
If a speaker doesn t sound good / acceptable form the get go , iow it takes days/ weeks of fiddling with placement to get some sort of an acceptable balance then there is something wrong with the design.
The Wilson / CH room as compared to the CH / Rockport Lyra room last year at munich was a prime example.
Wilson Alexx just lacks bass , they did place the speakers more to the side / back wall as far as i could see but still .
Same set up guys R gregory / stirling trayle afaik , same source same amplification same room
You can only get as good a sound as the hardware lets you
If a speaker doesn t sound good / acceptable form the get go , iow it takes days/ weeks of fiddling with placement to get some sort of an acceptable balance then there is something wrong with the design.
The Wilson / CH room as compared to the CH / Rockport Lyra room last year at munich was a prime example.
Wilson Alexx just lacks bass , they did place the speakers more to the side / back wall as far as i could see but still .
Same set up guys R gregory / stirling trayle afaik , same source same amplification same room
You can only get as good a sound as the hardware lets you
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Lol, the Alexx V has superb bass. If the bass wasn't there, then the setup definitely was off. Let's be honest here, the room acoustics in Munich are difficult at best.
I think he makes some great points, the most important of which is that you should put the speakers where you can enjoy the program on your own level. The most important measure is how you relate best to your program. Your ears are your best guide.
I am not making excuses. I just have heard the Alexx V produce wonderful bass in people's homes and the recent Axpona. It's a terrific speaker. If there was little bass with the CH Precision setup then I am not sure what happened as Kevin Wolff knows what he is doing.
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