Toward a Better WBF…

[Ron Resnick]

Ron, some guys are just, to quote Nat King Cole, unforgettable.

Evan Nat didn't have a second fake name you had to remember!

 

[Joe Whip]

Neither do I.

 

[Ron Resnick]

44k to 135k for essential the same product. What do you call it Ron?

Now I'm confused based on what you posted originally. Which Wilson Audio speaker model went from 44k to 135k?

 

[Lee]

Now I'm confused based on what you posted originally. Which Wilson Audio speaker model went from 44k to 135k?

He’s assuming the Alexx V is the same product as the Maxx2 which is ludicrous as the Maxx 2 came out two decades ago in 2005 and there have literally been dozens of parts and cabinet improvements since then. Two different speaker designers as well. David > Daryl.

 

[Lee]

PS. $44K in 2005 is $68,739 in today’s money. You also have to factor in the time value of money.

 

[PYP]

Speaking of costs -- I'm curious about the costs associated with audio shows. Just how expensive is it for a manufacturer who chooses a large room and/or several locations?

 

[Elliot G.]

Speaking of costs -- I'm curious about the costs associated with audio shows. Just how expensive is it for a manufacturer who chooses a large room and/or several locations?

Different shows are different prices. THe larger the market area the more the show usually costs. I don't know the costs for HK or Munich but I know they are extremely high and that rooms and large rooms are very difficult to get.
In the US. I show at Axpona, did PAF, Capfest, and in the past RMAF. I havent done a few of the others so far but the most expensive by far is Axpona. My room last year was over 16000. That does not include shipping and delivery of the gear to the show, renting things like internet service ( around 1000) curtains ( 1800). plants , hotel rooms to sleep in, staff, food, transportation etc. My cost for that show last year was approx 30k! A more regional show like Capt fest will probablywill be 10K plus.
Axpona this year is higher by 10 percent and I am sure all the other costs will go up , since they never go down, as well.
My room at Axpona is one of the more expensive but I doubt its the most expensive for sure.

 

[Elliot G.]

PS. $44K in 2005 is $68,739 in today’s money. You also have to factor in the time value of money.

I dont think using Wilson truly is a good example as thier price increases seem to be realistic with product changes an the parts cost increases as well as inflation.There are however some brands that the pricing over the last ten years is truly rediculous.
I see some companies that have tripled or more over the decade yet the products are really pretty much the same. That I wonder about.

 

[Lee]

Speaking of costs -- I'm curious about the costs associated with audio shows. Just how expensive is it for a manufacturer who chooses a large room and/or several locations?

We studied this at TAS for our strategy. We heard examples of $10K to $60K. Most I believe are over $20K all in with travel and personnel costs but varies widely by show.

 

[Lee]

I dont think using Wilson truly is a good example as thier price increases seem to be realistic with product changes an the parts cost increases as well as inflation.There are however some brands that the pricing over the last ten years is truly rediculous.
I see some companies that have tripled or more over the decade yet the products are really pretty much the same. That I wonder about. per

Yep, Daryl has told me of numerous part that have recently seen 4-5X increases. They can't pass all of them to the customer. They also try greatly improve the product for the new version that comes out every five years. I can tell you the Alexia V was a big improvement over the Alexia 2.

 

[exupgh12]

I know from talking to Wilson that everything has gotten much more expensive to produce from cabinet materials to machined parts to the pearl paints to capacitor. I am sure there have been some economies of scale but every loudspeaker manufacturer has seen price increases commensurate with Wilson.

Unless we have details about the bill of materials, shipping, and distribution costs that face Wilson, it’s folly to make a judgement on the fairness of pricing here. We don’t know the number of speakers Wilson makes on a historical basis so how can we reliably judge economies of scale.

Lee,

in 2005, Max2 price was 44k, Porsche 911 start at 69k (U.S. prices)
in 2023, Alex V price is around 130k, porsche 911 start at 107k (U.S. prices)

we can honestly say audio prices of some companies are rising faster then 0-60 miles of sport cars.

when it comes to cost of R&D, materials and production, my humb guess would be that the car was much, much more expensive.

 

[XV-1]

Lee,

in 2005, Max2 price was 44k, Porsche 911 start at 69k (U.S. prices)
in 2023 Alex V 109k, porsche 911 start at 107k (U.S. prices)

we can honestly say audio prices of some companies are rising faster then 0-60 miles of sport cars.

when it comes to cost of R&D, materials and production, my humb guess would be that the car was much, much more expensive.

The Wilson Audio Specialties Alexx V ($135,000–$151,000/pair) and that was in 2021.

No justification to outpace Porche in rising prices.

 

[XV-1]

He’s assuming the Alexx V is the same product as the Maxx2 which is ludicrous as the Maxx 2 came out two decades ago in 2005 and there have literally been dozens of parts and cabinet improvements since then. Two different speaker designers as well. David > Daryl.

Ludicrous? It is essentially the same design in form and function and almost exactly the same size.
Yes it has newer drivers, but the drivers are small cost vs the speaker cost

All your parts and cabinet improvements you mention are trickle down and should have been amortised to a degree against the flagship speakers - that is why manufacturers call it trickle down - much lower costs.

 

[facten]

All your parts and cabinet improvements you mention are trickle down and should have been amortised to a degree against the flagship speakers

I have no skin in the "Wilson game" , but I think the trickle down is largely the design and r&d elements. The cost of the parts and other materials I'd expect is based upon their inventory carrying protocol and quantity of overlap from model to model

 

[Lee]

Lee,

in 2005, Max2 price was 44k, Porsche 911 start at 69k (U.S. prices)
in 2023, Alex V price is around 130k, porsche 911 start at 107k (U.S. prices)

we can honestly say audio prices of some companies are rising faster then 0-60 miles of sport cars.

when it comes to cost of R&D, materials and production, my humb guess would be that the car was much, much more expensive.

That’s not a good analysis as we don’t know what the materials costs are in each example nor do we have equalized economies of scale. Porsche builds hundreds of thousands of cars and Wilson builds thousands of units. Wilson has less inventory to spread the costs over.

 

[Salectric]

Wilson builds thousands of units.

I can’t believe that’s correct.

 

[Lee]

I can’t believe that’s correct.

I know it to be correct.

By the way, Wilson has significant revenue and is one of the largest manufacturers in high end audio outside of the big conglomerates like Harman.

 

[PYP]

I often think the upper end of the prices in our hobby is ridiculous, but doesn't the market correct for this?

"In economics, a free market is an economic system in which the prices of goods and services are determined by supply and demand expressed by sellers and buyers. Such markets, as modeled, operate without the intervention of government or any other external authority" [wikipedia]

"A good's Price elasticity of demand (

, PED) is a measure of how sensitive the quantity demanded is to its price. ... At an elasticity of 0 consumption would not change at all, in spite of any price increases."

 

[Lee]

Ludicrous? It is essentially the same design in form and function and almost exactly the same size.
Yes it has newer drivers, but the drivers are small cost vs the speaker cost

All your parts and cabinet improvements you mention are trickle down and should have been amortised to a degree against the flagship speakers - that is why manufacturers call it trickle down - much lower costs.

With respect, I don’t think you understand the amount of R&D involved in these new version developments. Wilson has a large full-time engineering team. It’s nearly a full hallway of room at their factory.

They also bought Reliable for the new capacitors. That purchase price has to be included s well.

 

[bonzo75]

I often think the upper end of the prices in our hobby is ridiculous, but doesn't the market correct for this?

"In economics, a free market is an economic system in which the prices of goods and services are determined by supply and demand expressed by sellers and buyers. Such markets, as modeled, operate without the intervention of government or any other external authority" [wikipedia]

"A good's Price elasticity of demand (

, PED) is a measure of how sensitive the quantity demanded is to its price. ... At an elasticity of 0 consumption would not change at all, in spite of any price increases."

this assumes hifi is an efficient market with knowledgable customers, and a large enough number to create that demand supply curve