Journaling my system upgrades

[Rumpole]

I'm close to retiring and making a significant effort to upgrade my audio system, so I thought I would share that process here and perhaps get some advice on rooms, cables, power and components. I've also very much enjoyed reading about other's journeys so I'm hoping this might be interesting to others.

My primary room is about 26 feet front to back, 24 feet wide, vaulted ceiling peaking at about 12 feet, and with a large adobe chimney about 7.5 feet from the front wall. I'm placing speakers about 2+ feet out from the chimney, so about 11 feet from the front wall. Speakers are about 8 feet apart and 7 feet from their edges to the side walls. The pictures should help on the details - there is an open stairway to the basement and open doors in the front wall to the bedroom hall area, with a similar floor plan in the basement (but 8 foot ceilings) where I plan to set up a second system. I will never use the fireplace and would like to remove the chimney to open the space visually, but not sure if I will do that in the future. I don't want to add curtains over the large glass windows, but I might add some folding panels at the back wall and area rugs on the hardwood floor. The back wall angles out at about 5 degrees, so that might affect room reflections.

I've had Sonus Faber and Martin Logan speakers in the past, with tube amps and preamps, but for simplicity I'm going solid state and looking to explore Class D for energy efficiency. Current components are Pass INT-25 and Boulder 866 integrated; Playback Designs MPS-8 (Thanks Scott!) and a 20 year old Accustic Arts CDP. Speakers are SF Elect Amator III, and I will be adding Pure Audio Project Trio15 Coax-10 and YG Hailey 2.2 speakers and AGD Class D amps. If I keep all three speakers, I'll move the Electa Amators to a 20x13 foot bedroom and the PAP Trio15 to the basement. So I'm looking at setting up 3 different systems to experiment with different sounds in different rooms. I have a variety of budget Cardas, Harmonic Tech, AudioQuest and Nordost cables and interconnects and will demo some other cables. I'm at the end of the line on my rural power grid, but I think I'm getting good, stable voltage, reliable power (per my Ting power monitor).

I've been to RMAF in the past, and to local dealers recently to audition equipment, but never found those experiences very satisfying - too rushed, too many distractions, and poor room set ups, so I didn't feel like I could make useful evaluations in those settings, and I'd rather test systems in my home for several months. I know I will pay some cost for reselling components that don't work out but I think it is worth the risk. The only really good experience I've had at a dealer was when Mike and Neli from Audio Federation were in Boulder demoing equipment from their home.

My first priority now is to replace the old audio rack in the center of the speakers with something that does not affect imaging. I'm also wondering if the chimney is affecting imaging. Any comments are welcome, and I'll post some updates as I try out the new equipment. I had SF Amati Homage in the past, and I'm very happy with the EA III, but I'm hoping the YG and PAP speakers will provide more of the full range sound that I had with Amatis. I listen to a variety of music: alt-rock, folk, world, some jazz and classical, but strong low bass is not a priority, so I'm thinking I wont need to add a subwoofer to the YG or PAP. I could add much more detail about the tube amps etc that I used in the past, but this is already too long for an opening post.

 

[Hobblecreek]

You've got to love those Colorado views! (I live SE of Parker and dearly love the open vistas in our state.)

I think you very likely will receive many responses on this site indicating a change of speakers will be necessary (away from the Hailey's) in order to better fully achieve your sonic goals. I (for one) am a completely satisfied owner of YG Hailey 2.2 loudspeakers -- my wife and I have enjoyed many years of tremendous listening pleasure with these. The key to making the Hailey's sing their best was careful testing in our home with various amplifiers to find the right match. We ended up with the Ypsilon Phaethon integrated and found the hybrid combo of the tube pre-amp and solid state amp provided just the right amount of warmth to take any bright edge off the speakers (yes, they were occasionally a bit bright with Ayre and Rowland, and then a bit in your face with Gryphon), but that little tube in the Ypsilon did the trick. In comparison to what you've indicated I have not heard a full Class D amplifier with these speakers, so I cannot comment with any perspective, but I do know the Hailey's do not hide anything being passed to them from the source. We also had a lot of fun demoing many TTs and DACs before finally making our end selections. The last component was cabling and I was amazed at the sonic differences that are available to shape the musicality being played to your liking.

You are on a fantastic quest and since you'll be retired, you will have ample time to patiently demo, test and retest. I hope you thoroughly enjoy this journey.

 

[Rumpole]

The key to making the Hailey's sing their best was careful testing in our home with various amplifiers to find the right match. We ended up with the Ypsilon Phaethon integrated and found the hybrid combo of the tube pre-amp and solid state amp provided just the right amount of warmth to take any bright edge off the speakers (yes, they were occasionally a bit bright with Ayre and Rowland, and then a bit in your face with Gryphon), but that little tube in the Ypsilon did the trick.

Thanks for the comments, and yes, Colorado is the best. There is also the option of updating the Hailey to v3, which might or might not affect the brightness and amp choice. I talked with Steve at YG and he said there should be a review published on the v3 in the next week.

Can I also ask what source you are using? I think that the PlayBack Designs might help tame any brightness, but it is just speculation until the speakers arrive.

 

[Hobblecreek]

For analog: a Thales Slim TT with a Thales Easy Tonearm and Ikeda Kai Reference Cartridge (through a Parasound Halo JC 3+ phono pre) and for digital: the dCS Rossini APEX DAC and Rossini clock. It all works extremely well together. Yes, it is all better mid-range -- not "best" as the name of this forum implies (although I do like to see how the other half lives), but collectively it makes the right sound to my ears, in terms of what I can afford. At first the Rossini through the Hailey’s was leaning toward the analytic side, but the APEX upgrade eliminated that and it is now incredibly musical. And the TT rig is sublime for my money and listening tastes.

 

[PYP]

I'm close to retiring and making a significant effort to upgrade my audio system, so I thought I would share that process here and perhaps get some advice on rooms, cables, power and components. I've also very much enjoyed reading about other's journeys so I'm hoping this might be interesting to others.

My primary room is about 26 feet front to back, 24 feet wide, vaulted ceiling peaking at about 12 feet, and with a large adobe chimney about 7.5 feet from the front wall. I'm placing speakers about 2+ feet out from the chimney, so about 11 feet from the front wall. Speakers are about 8 feet apart and 7 feet from their edges to the side walls. The pictures should help on the details - there is an open stairway to the basement and open doors in the front wall to the bedroom hall area, with a similar floor plan in the basement (but 8 foot ceilings) where I plan to set up a second system. I will never use the fireplace and would like to remove the chimney to open the space visually, but not sure if I will do that in the future. I don't want to add curtains over the large glass windows, but I might add some folding panels at the back wall and area rugs on the hardwood floor. The back wall angles out at about 5 degrees, so that might affect room reflections.

I've had Sonus Faber and Martin Logan speakers in the past, with tube amps and preamps, but for simplicity I'm going solid state and looking to explore Class D for energy efficiency. Current components are Pass INT-25 and Boulder 866 integrated; Playback Designs MPS-8 (Thanks Scott!) and a 20 year old Accustic Arts CDP. Speakers are SF Elect Amator III, and I will be adding Pure Audio Project Trio15 Coax-10 and YG Hailey 2.2 speakers and AGD Class D amps. If I keep all three speakers, I'll move the Electa Amators to a 20x13 foot bedroom and the PAP Trio15 to the basement. So I'm looking at setting up 3 different systems to experiment with different sounds in different rooms. I have a variety of budget Cardas, Harmonic Tech, AudioQuest and Nordost cables and interconnects and will demo some other cables. I'm at the end of the line on my rural power grid, but I think I'm getting good, stable voltage, reliable power (per my Ting power monitor).

I've been to RMAF in the past, and to local dealers recently to audition equipment, but never found those experiences very satisfying - too rushed, too many distractions, and poor room set ups, so I didn't feel like I could make useful evaluations in those settings, and I'd rather test systems in my home for several months. I know I will pay some cost for reselling components that don't work out but I think it is worth the risk. The only really good experience I've had at a dealer was when Mike and Neli from Audio Federation were in Boulder demoing equipment from their home.

My first priority now is to replace the old audio rack in the center of the speakers with something that does not affect imaging. I'm also wondering if the chimney is affecting imaging. Any comments are welcome, and I'll post some updates as I try out the new equipment. I had SF Amati Homage in the past, and I'm very happy with the EA III, but I'm hoping the YG and PAP speakers will provide more of the full range sound that I had with Amatis. I listen to a variety of music: alt-rock, folk, world, some jazz and classical, but strong low bass is not a priority, so I'm thinking I wont need to add a subwoofer to the YG or PAP. I could add much more detail about the tube amps etc that I used in the past, but this is already too long for an opening post.

View attachment 116578View attachment 116579View attachment 116580

Have you thought about reorienting the room so that the setup is on the long wall where the couch with some stuff on it now resides.? Your listening couch would be opposite so that you also get those amazing views. The table could be where the listening couch is now but closer to the windows. You don't lose the views from there.

 

[Rumpole]

Have you thought about reorienting the room so that the setup is on the long wall where the couch with some stuff on it now resides.?

Yes - I have thought about that, but there are some challenges with room flow and more direct sunlight hitting the speakers. I'm not as concerned about the view, but I wonder if room reflections might work better by re-orienting the speakers in the room. I'm posting pictures below of my basement room. It has basically the same layout, except there is a solid wall from the chimney that divides half of the room into separate spaces. So upstairs, sound reflections will wrap around the chimney, and downstairs reflections from the rear of each speakers will be separated by the solid wall.

I don't know if it is possible to get a handle on the room limitations without doing measurements. I'd like to keep things simple and not do sound measurements and DSP correction, but just adjust speaker position and listen for improvements, if that will work.

The speakers in the photo are my old Sonus Faber Signums. In 2001 I lived in southern CA and had been auditioning Magnepans and Inner Sound/Sanders speakers, than walked into a shop that had the Signum speakers set up with used GTA SE-40 monoblocks, an old Manley preamp and Rotel CDP, loved the sound and bought the complete system.

 

[Rumpole]

So the Hailey's arrived yesterday in a huge moving truck. The driver was not happy and said he would have called his company to cancel the delivery if he could have gotten a signal. I'm sorry but they had the address and could have checked the roads before sending a monster moving truck. I was hoping he would deliver them to the upper level entrance at the back of the house, but that was obviously not going to happen.

With crates they are over 200 lbs each. I tried sliding them up the stairs and that was also obviously not going to happen. I thought for a minute I might have to stow in the garage until I could get some help. No way I could let that happen! Archimedes said give me a lever and I can move the world. It took several hours but the second photo shows the result.

 

[Ron Resnick]

Great work! Congratulations!

How did you get them up the stairs by yourself?

 

[Rumpole]

Thanks! It was a long process. I raised them up on blocks, slid them into my truck, drove them to the upper level back deck, put down sheets of cardboard, and slid and tilt walked them to the living room, being very careful not to lose the balance and drop them. Getting them out of the crates was also a challenge. I lowered them on to cushions and was able to lift the crates off the speakers. Initially the crates didn't want to move, but I grabbed them in the middle and did a power lift. I didn't think it was going to happen, but my motivation was very high.

I listened for a few hours last night, and I was prepared for the Hailey's to be only a marginal improvement over the SF EAIII which are amazing speakers, especially after upgrading to the PBD MPS-8 DAC and Boulder 866 amp. I could (or should) have been satisfied with the EAIII, but I felt that the imaging and soundstage where lacking, and while the bass on the EAIII is extraordinary for a stand mount, I also felt like I was missing something compared to the full range SF Amati Homage that I had 20 years ago.

Chis Issaks was in the CDP, so I started with "Wicked Game" and it was immediately apparent that the Hailey's were not just a marginal improvement. After warming up for an hour I listened to Jennifer Warnes covers of Leonard Cohen, and "Way Down Deep", "Hard Times", then Kronos Quartet "Pieces of Africa", ending with Jane Siberry "When I Was a Boy".

I was prepared for a more analytic, detailed sound with the YG/Boulder combo (especially in comparison to the Sonus Faber EAIII which has a warmer midrange) but I did not get that perception at all, maybe because of the PBD DAC which is often described as having a liquid, organic or natural sound. The most remarkable improvement was the YG imaging and soundstage with instruments and vocals being more clearly located, solid, and detailed, instruments extending well to the side of the speakers, the speakers disappearing, and a greater sense of clarity and realism. With the EAIII I sometimes felt like I was making a mental effort to locate the relative positions of KD Lang and Siberry's vocals on "Calling All Angels", with the YG I easily perceived KD Lang to the left of and a few inches higher than Siberry, and for me, that clarity in imaging makes a tremendous improvement in the realism and the sense that the musicians are in the room, and I had that perception throughout "Pieces of Africa" , where the improvement in dynamic range was notable, and all the tracks on "When I Was a Boy", which has lot of complex vocal and electronic arrangements. The improvements in bass were as you would expect, not so much that the bass was missing in the EAIII, but it was more effortless, natural and accurate in the YG.

Looking forward to more comparisons tonight, although now my expectations are high, not low, so it will be interesting to see what effect that has. Next up are Talking Heads, who were very disappointing on the EAIII (perhaps because of the poor quality of the original recording), Heidi Berry "Miracle", Traffic "Low Spark", and Ahmad Jamal and Coltrane, if I can fit all of that in.

 

[Hobblecreek]

Tremendous props on moving the speakers, it seems that most floor standing loudspeakers are at least a 2-man job with fancy moving equipment.

Please let us know your observations on some of the lesser quality recordings that you play -- many times a decent (but not great) recording is laid bare because the Hailey's are so revealing and they won't hide much of anything.

 

[Rumpole]

I've mostly been streaming Qobuz hi res files for the last several months, mostly with excellent results, although I'm not using Roon and have been struggling with player apps. I first tried Mconnect Control and BubbleUPnP with Android Pixel 7. Sound quality was excellent, but I had lots of problems with the apps, including "stuttering" and break-up on some tracks, and losing connection to the MPS-X. So I finally broke down and bought an iPad. I've been avoiding the Apple ecosystem since 1979 when I bought my first computer, an Apple II Plus. JPLAY with the Ipad fixed the stuttering and connection problem, but JPLAY still sometimes cuts off in the middle of a track, so still some work to done there. I'm running an ethernet cable directly from my MicroTik hAPac3 router. I'm planning to add a EtherREGEN, and also thinking about other options including running a fiber cable.

On a lark, I connected the entire system to batteries, the PBD DAC and MPS-X to a GrowWatt 800 and the AGD amps to an Ecoflow Delta 2 Max. I was surprised that the AGD amps were only drawing about 25 watts (about 12 to 13 watts each) from the battery, and I could run the system for about 30 hours before needing to recharge the batteries. I'm not sure if there was a sound improvement with the batteries, but I already have excellent power supply from my utility, so the differences might be small.

The low power draw from the AGD amps made me wonder if my Pass INT-25 could drive the YG speakers. I didn't expect the Pass to have enough power, but the Pass drove the speakers easily for most of the music I listen too, lately mostly Indie-Rock on Qobuz. It might not be adequate for classical or music with more dynamic range. I tried the PBD MPS-8 at both -3 dB and at 0 dB, and used the Pass volume control, and maybe had a slight preference for 0 db (options are from -6 to +6 dB on the PBD). I had planned this just as a test, but the sound was so excellent that I left the Pass in for the next four months.

My biggest complaint was the tall rack between the speakers. I'm not sure how much it affected the sound, but visually it was very distracting to see a rack and components in the place where I was hearing the musicians. I ordered a new rack but there is a long wait, so I finally got out my angle grinder and removed the top two shelves from the rack (photo), and then put the AGD Duets back in play, using the PBD variable volume control and XLR cables from the PBD to the Duets. My auditory memory is not good enough to describe the differences between the Pass INT-25 and the AGD Duets. Both sound excellent, and I'll have to switch back and forth more times to form an impression.

I'm still trying to decide if I should upgrade the YG Hailey from 2.2 to version 3. The sound is already excellent, and I'm not sure if it is worth the cost of the upgrade. I did visit YG to listen to the Hailey 3, but the differences in the room and speaker configuration were so different from my nearfield setup that I could not really make a valid comparison of my 2.2 versus the version 3. And I'm wondering if it might be better to use the funds to experiment with other speakers. I'm really interested in hearing the Songer speakers, and I had the SF Amatis 20 years ago, and would like to try the new model. I did listen to the new Amati G5 in a Boulder audio store, but I think the room and setup was not good, so I would need to try them in my space.