Ron’s New System

[bonzo75]

Full Answer: Acoustically-coupled digital recordings of stereo system analog playback of analog recordings don't convey the in-the-room sound of an unfamiliar system in an unfamiliar room.

Simple Answer: Videos suck!

speaking of intellectual dishonesty while reporting on gear, you have been quite honest.
However you have been been very intellectually dishonest with your video experiments.

1. You did not once, do videos of before and after with both mobile and your better mic to confirm if mobile was sufficient to hear the changes

2. You never did proper videos before and after. Nor did you use audition tracks, the kind you would use to audition a system in room. You randomly recorded things you were listening to, such as bad quality streamed recordings, and kind of led to a judgement you wanted.

Overall quite disappointing behaviour on this one front

 

[PeterA]

speaking of intellectual dishonesty while reporting on gear, you have been quite honest.
However you have been been very intellectually dishonest with your video experiments.

1. You did not once, do videos of before and after with both mobile and your better mic to confirm if mobile was sufficient to hear the changes

2. You never did proper videos before and after. Nor did you use audition tracks, the kind you would use to audition a system in room. You randomly recorded things you were listening to, such as bad quality streamed recordings, and kind of led to a judgement you wanted.

Overall quite disappointing behaviour on this one front

I think a video with each of the amps being discussed with trade-offs would have added good information to the discussion.

 

[Ron Resnick]

So let’s forget the videos that at one point you claimed were representative of what you heard.

Yes, let's. In retrospect I think "representative" was too strong a word.

In the room, do you hear the high frequency roll off shown in your measurements

I do not hear the broad high frequency roll-off depicted in the frequency response chart. It remains a mystery to me too.

But the 4 to 5 kHz peak or edginess has objectively (measurably) been reduced. Subjectively I think it has been wholly eliminated or, at least, attenuated into insignificance.

Don, who was the most troubled by the 4 to 5 kHz peak or edginess (along with me) declared after several hours of listening on Saturday to his own tracks that he brought with him that he could no longer here it. He kept asking me "what did you change to get rid of it?"

Now that that issue has been vanquished I am now a bit nervous to push further in the smoothing/softer direction. Doing so might cause me to lose dynamics and energy and natural instrumental "bite." I'm even thinking about experimenting now with removing a couple of the absorption panels. I'm even wondering now if I don't need to replace the Cardas Clear Beyond interconnects with a slightly smoother model of Cardas interconnects.

Don said he never really heard distractingly the 45Hz and 65Hz room modes (which puzzled me because I sure AF could hear them). But J.R.'s placement of the woofer towers inside the panels and away from the walls, combined with his placement of the AVAAs surrounding the listening position, has vanquished the unexpectedly problematic room modes.

So that leaves consideration of trying to get to an even higher indifference curve with a high power SET or PSET amplifier; experimenting with different cables; experimenting with panel toe-in to fine-tune center imaging solidity; and a bit of input tube and driver tube swapping In the JA100s.

But I am basically done. I'm loving how the system sounds right now with the 5T. I think I'll be even happier once the Grado goes on the 5T.

If I played with none of these other tweaking possibilities I think I'd now be fine for the rest of my life.

 

[Ron Resnick]

speaking of intellectual dishonesty while reporting on gear, you have been quite honest.
However you have been been very intellectually dishonest with your video experiments.

1. You did not once, do videos of before and after with both mobile and your better mic to confirm if mobile was sufficient to hear the changes

2. You never did proper videos before and after. Nor did you use audition tracks, the kind you would use to audition a system in room. You randomly recorded things you were listening to, such as bad quality streamed recordings, and kind of led to a judgement you wanted.

Overall quite disappointing behaviour on this one front

I understand and I respect this criticism.

 

[Ron Resnick]

Except they show the headroom issue heard by Don and Phil.

Even if we stipulate that they are correct it really not is an issue or a concern that is actionable for me. For me it simply means that 80 watts or so is likely the minimum I should be thinking about.

This is why as much as I love the Trafomatic Elysium the 70 watt output there (even with gigantic transformers) makes me nervous, and makes me feel that the Wavac 833 with close to 150 watts might be the safer bet, or the MastersounD PF100 with 120 watts PSET (845 x 4) might be the safer bet.

 

[Mike Lavigne]

This is a reasonable characterization.

thanks.

Comparisons can be relative to what you know and where you're coming from in making the comparison. For example, let's say you are using one of the bigger ARC tube monos (which I like) then bring in a Lamm hybrid or SET. On first hearing the word 'darker' may come to mind in the case of the Lamm. Then, imagine the reverse where you have the Lamms and the ARC amps are brought in. On first hearing would your thought be the Lamms are darker? That wasn't the case for me. Describing the ARC sound in contrast, the antonym of 'darker' was not 'lighter' but 'leaner'.

my use of darker is not about liquidity or grainlessness or weight, it's about light verses dark. and shades of it. mostly hearing into the corners of the soundstage. maybe just a touch about tone color, but not mainly. Lamm is lively and 'alive' sounding. i owned a Lamm LP2 Deluxe phono stage (liked it alot) for 4 years and it was 'like' this too.

while i agree my general view of ARC is on the 'lean' side, and the Lamm slightly on the warm/full side of neutral, that is a different thing than light or dark to my ears.

It is Lamm's preservation of music's harmonic structure and spectral balance in the lower midrange through the bass that leads some to the darker/darkness characterization. I find Lamm amps whole within themselves, able to present rich harmonic information across the frequency spectrum -- in accordance with how we hear. This is a big part of their balanced presentation.

fair enough. i agree Lamm is natural and balanced sounding. so are my darts.

 

[Ron Resnick]

I want to thank the participants on the thread for indulging me in these endless amplifier options musings, and for brainstorming about possibilities with me!

 

[bonzo75]

I want to thank the participants on the thread for indulging me in these endless amplifier options musings, and for brainstorming about possibilities with me!

Is that a polite discuss this on other threads?

 

[morricab]

This is a reasonable theory. I just don't think that that is what is happening.

Not all SETs are rolled off. They still don't have zing in the highs.

 

[PeterA]

But the 4 to 5 kHz peak or edginess has objectively (measurably) been reduced. Subjectively I think it has been wholly eliminated or, at least, attenuated into insignificance.

Don, who was the most troubled by the 4 to 5 kHz peak or edginess (along with me) declared after several hours of listening on Saturday to his own tracks that he brought with him that he could no longer here it. He kept asking me "what did you change to get rid of it?"

That is good news Ron. I heard that peak clearly in the early videos and it jived with your written descriptions, just not very evident in the measurements.

Don asked you a good question. What did you do to get rid of it? And yes, I no longer hear it in your latest video, but that music may not really demonstrate it.

Good idea to experiment with removing some of those panels. Al did it to good effect in his room.

 

[jeff1225]

+1

This is a more thoughtful and accurate description than "rolled off."

Or...I just lack the audiophile vocabulary. I absolutely love Lamm products and think they can be a base of a phenomenal sounding system.

I have found the same level of joy with low wattage simple circuit SET however.

 

[Ron Resnick]

Except they show the headroom issue heard by Don and Phil.

What headroom issue did you hear and on which video I posted?

 

[Ron Resnick]

Is that a polite discuss this on other threads?

No, not at all. It is an honest "thank you." (I'm simpler than I think you think I am.)

 

[bonzo75]

What headroom issue did you hear and on which video I posted?

i Mentioned on Mahler 3 Zubin Mehta many times, which you had texted.

 

[Ron Resnick]

I absolutely love Lamm products and think they can be a base of a phenomenal sounding system.

+1

I have always said that in a slightly alternative universe I would've had all Lamm components. (I never cottoned to Vladimir's psychoacoustic human hearing explanation stuff; I simply love the way the components sound.)

But I fell in love with the all-tube gain Io over 20 years ago. (And now I adore Jim White.)

And (for perhaps ideological reasons) when I needed high-power amplifiers I wanted to stay all tube (rather than hybrid).

 

[Ron Resnick]

i Mentioned on Mahler 3 Zubin Mehta many times, which you had texted.

And from the video what do you believe you heard?

 

[bonzo75]

And from the video what do you believe you heard?

Just what I said, it sounded strained, flat as if there wasn't enough headroom to rise and fall freely like symphonies do. Happened when I underdrove some speakers, examples I mentioned earlier in the thread.

 

[Ron Resnick]

Just what I said, it sounded strained, flat as if there wasn't enough headroom to rise and fall freely like symphonies do. Happened when I underdrove some speakers, examples I mentioned earlier in the thread.

It didn't bother me, frankly. But to mitigate this concern is why I feel it would be nice to get to the 120 to 150 watt level.

We know the 70 watt Trafomatic transformer is a beast, but the Jadis transformers are not inadequate.

 

[bonzo75]

And from the video what do you believe you heard?

And You should have done that on VTL too. That’s how video sharing should be managed

 

[cal3713]

I want to thank the participants on the thread for indulging me in these endless amplifier options musings, and for brainstorming about possibilities with me!

Amplifier brainstorming is an enjoyable reading experience. Why amplifiers Ron's not considering may or may not improve Wilson speakers and how exactly to describe their effects on Wilson speakers... considerably less (with the exception of graphs showing evenly distributed k2 harmonics across the frequency spectrum).