"Long-Term Equipment Loans: A Win-Win for Everyone" by Robert Harley, The Absolute Sound

[Dierkx1]

I don’t blame him. He may have to hire labor to set up the demo, and if he doesn’t have employees, $250 is chump change for skilled brawny talent to set up and take down.

See post #692 above.

Thanks. It's a well established retail store with top brands and multiple employees, but they may hire labor as you point out. I posted so I could level set my expectations.

My gold standard is the now defunct DB Audio in Berkeley (employees in the 80s included Garth Leerer - Musical Surroundings, John Hunter - Sumiko and REL, and Stirling Trayle - Sumiko and Audio Systems Optimized. I do appreciate that the state-of-the-industry was different.

Appreciate the reply.

 

[Another Johnson]

Thanks. It's a well established retail store with top brands and multiple employees, but they may hire labor as you point out. I posted so I could level set my expectations.

My gold standard is the now defunct DB Audio in Berkeley (employees in the 80s included Garth Leerer - Musical Surroundings, John Hunter - Sumiko and REL, and Stirling Trayle - Sumiko and Audio Systems Optimized. I do appreciate that the state-of-the-industry was different.

Appreciate the reply.

If it’s a real bricks and mortar store, with regular hours, employees and the subject gear on hand, then that is very unusual. I assumed you were dealing with a “home dealer.”

If the gear is not on hand, he may have to have it shipped in. For a serious audition, most distributors would help him out.

You might call the distributor and share your story. I expect the distributor might be a bit concerned if an authorized “real dealer” is charging for an audition. Home dealers are a whole ‘nuther rodeo.

 

[gleeds]

Impressive, this thread has 36 pages of content! I can understand how a thread that started as a discussion about reviewers could migrate to discussing resellers. We are ALL part of the hobby/business, and no doubt, sometimes interests align, and sometimes not so much.

Bonzo is spot on; some businesses specialize in selling pre-owned and distressed gear. Wilson wisely set up their prime dealers as resale points for their earlier generation speakers (and God knows they have many) to better control their brand and customer experience. Rolex did the same.

In my view, you get what you pay for. Some buy discontinued products, closeouts, and used gear for value or simply as an affordable way into the hobby, and there is nothing wrong with that! The same is true of used luxury cars and Swiss watches. The internet has seen dealers rewarded by going out of their way to ensure the pre-owned products they sell are accurately presented. Many pre-owned buyers I have dealt with have the same and, in some cases, higher expectations than new buyers. In short, it's not a walk in the park to squeeze a 10-15% margin on used gear, and like Elliot, as my business has grown, I do my best to stay in my lane, representing and supporting my lines only.

A vibrant pre-owned market helps professionals like Elliot and me and enables consumers by creating a hassle-free opportunity to trade in and trade up. Many new high-end sellers will over-allow trade-ins toward new gear to help the buyer get into the gear he wants to own. It sounds like a win-win to me.

Concerning reviewers of all types (as many of you have expressed), if one uses those reviews as entertainment and information, then what's the point of debating motives we will never fully understand?

It's a great hobby for everyone, whether professional or amateur. Here's to getting back to it!

 

[Rt66indierock]

.

I agree with Ron on this.

Why should Jay be treated any differently than Lee Scoggins?

 

[Another Johnson]

Why should Jay be treated any differently than Lee Scoggins?

Obviously they have different goals and behaviors. Lee has not been banned. Why others are banned has been hashed out elsewhere. And it’s been made clear by management that banning is not a topic to hash out here.

Personally I don’t see any significant parallels.

 

[Elliot G.]

Obviously they have different goals and behaviors. Lee has not been banned. Why others are banned has been hashed out elsewhere. And it’s been made clear by management that banning is not a topic to hash out here.

Personally I don’t see any significant parallels.

However there are two other youtubers that are on here and with Ron that makes three

 

[Elliot G.]

Impressive, this thread has 36 pages of content! I can understand how a thread that started as a discussion about reviewers could migrate to discussing resellers. We are ALL part of the hobby/business, and no doubt, sometimes interests align, and sometimes not so much.

Bonzo is spot on; some businesses specialize in selling pre-owned and distressed gear. Wilson wisely set up their prime dealers as resale points for their earlier generation speakers (and God knows they have many) to better control their brand and customer experience. Rolex did the same.

In my view, you get what you pay for. Some buy discontinued products, closeouts, and used gear for value or simply as an affordable way into the hobby, and there is nothing wrong with that! The same is true of used luxury cars and Swiss watches. The internet has seen dealers rewarded by going out of their way to ensure the pre-owned products they sell are accurately presented. Many pre-owned buyers I have dealt with have the same and, in some cases, higher expectations than new buyers. In short, it's not a walk in the park to squeeze a 10-15% margin on used gear, and like Elliot, as my business has grown, I do my best to stay in my lane, representing and supporting my lines only.

A vibrant pre-owned market helps professionals like Elliot and me and enables consumers by creating a hassle-free opportunity to trade in and trade up. Many new high-end sellers will over-allow trade-ins toward new gear to help the buyer get into the gear he wants to own. It sounds like a win-win to me.

Concerning reviewers of all types (as many of you have expressed), if one uses those reviews as entertainment and information, then what's the point of debating motives we will never fully understand?

It's a great hobby for everyone, whether professional or amateur. Here's to getting back to it!

Gary,
I agree that the used market is a necessity for the this Industry or any high end reatil Industry to grow. Used cars, watches , houses,machines etc. are all part of a growing Industry.
The issue for me is the grey area that many manufacturers have pushed us too. Much of the "used" gear is not that at all.

 

[Another Johnson]

However there are two other youtubers that are on here and with Ron that makes three

So would you ban Ron? Frankly, this YouTuber was not banned for the idea that he was on YouTube. Is it really necessary to revisit his status with such regularity?

 

[Elliot G.]

So would you ban Ron? Frankly, this YouTuber was not banned for the idea that he was on YouTube. Is it really necessary to revisit his status with such regularity?

Me no I believe in free speech! period
BTW AJ you didn't get my humor.

 

[Mike Lavigne]

the forum and it's admin has evolved. in-forum advertising and economics have changed. how and why decisions happened years ago, cannot be judged in, or applied to, today's reality.

 

[KeithR]

It’s not slimy. It’s just opportunistic on both sides of the table. Most businesses in expensive hobbies are like this.

If you can cut a $100k check in this business, you can see lots of deals from several sources. Not uncommon on this forum, either.

 

[ctydwn]

I think it is disrespectful to Jay to discuss him here when he cannot respond.

I think any discussion involving Jay should be conducted via comments on his YouTube channel.

I have been saying this 2-3 dozen times on this forum. Ron, don’t u not know how I have been responded to, literally in response to your quote above? Let me know if u’d like to see the PMs from your own website moderators. Such a runaround. Rarely anyone sticks their neck out for Jay on WBF (aside from the occasional soft ‘like’ emoji). The response I have gotten back from WBF and obviously from other members here, has been unequivocal that he has laid his own bed. They say this without ever explaining what he has done wrong publicly. Again, Jay is not going away. And frankly he is staying above the potshots that have been thrown at him these past few years while he is banned.

 

[Lee]

I think it is disrespectful to Jay to discuss him here when he cannot respond.

I think any discussion involving Jay should be conducted via comments on his YouTube channel.

Why not invite him to participate here?

 

[Rt66indierock]

Obviously they have different goals and behaviors. Lee has not been banned. Why others are banned has been hashed out elsewhere. And it’s been made clear by management that banning is not a topic to hash out here.

Personally I don’t see any significant parallels.

You missed the obvious similarity. Both should be heavily criticized for what they say and write.

 

[Lee]

I have been saying this 2-3 dozen times on this forum. Ron, don’t u not know how I have been responded to, literally in response to your quote above? Let me know if u’d like to see the PMs from your own website moderators. Such a runaround. Rarely anyone sticks their neck out for Jay on WBF (aside from the occasional soft ‘like’ emoji). The response I have gotten back from WBF and obviously from other members here, has been unequivocal that he has laid his own bed. They say this without ever explaining what he has done wrong publicly. Again, Jay is not going away. And frankly he is staying above the potshots that have been thrown at him these past few years while he is banned.

I’m defending at least his business need here given the smallness of the industry (you can take that both ways ). I know Jay and talk frequently with him and find him to be a mostly good guy. I am not aware of what he did to get banned but I think it probably should be reconsidered so he can explain his approach and also get feedback, hopefully respectful, and learn from it.

Just my $0.02

 

[Lee]

You missed the obvious similarity. Both should be heavily criticized for what they say and write.

Why? Simply because I support MQA as a format? You’re a one trick pony.

 

[Elliot G.]

You missed the obvious similarity. Both should be heavily criticized for what they say and write.

Yes that is true but only one can defend himself. I don't agree with Lee very often but I do respect his right to say what he wants. I am friends with Jay and don't agree with him all that much either but he has no voice here. I don't care for the Industry allowing all these quasi-dealers and all the grey area sales that go on either but that is the reality. Rules and laws seem to carry much less weight these days everywhere.
I think that sucks but I have a very small voice and even less clout.

 

[Lee]

the forum and it's admin has evolved. in-forum advertising and economics have changed. how and why decisions happened years ago, cannot be judged in, or applied to, today's reality.

This is a great point. TAS and Stereophile have made or begun to make real investments in YouTube coverage. Marketing budgets have shifted significantly to more YouTube coverage.

 

[Another Johnson]

You missed the obvious similarity. Both should be heavily criticized for what they say and write.

Perhaps we can agree to disagree. I don’t follow any of these people, but when they pop up, I am as capable of judging similarities as you are.

Personalizing these threads is irresistible to some people. Instead of dropping reference to the one, they’re compelled to bring in others and expand the negativity.

If you have a beef with any of these guys, take it up with them directly. Don’t air the dirty laundry in a public space.

My own perspective is that trying to make a living as an influencer is a sure path to sucking the enjoyment out of any hobby. YMMV.

 

[Lee]

Yes that is true but only one can defend himself. I don't agree with Lee very often but I do respect his right to say what he wants. I am friends with Jay and don't agree with him all that much either but he has no voice here. I don't care for the Industry allowing all these quasi-dealers and all the grey area sales that go on either but that is the reality. Rules and laws seem to carry much less weight these days everywhere.
I think that sucks but I have a very small voice and even less clout.

Based on our phone calls at least, I always thought that we agreed on more things than we disagreed on.