Simplicity, Complexity and Price

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There was an ARC Ref2 mkII circa 2001.
There was an ARC Ref2se circa 2012

I errantly referred to a Ref 10 linestage when I meant the phonostage, given that the Ref2se is a phonostage. The Ref10 Phono is two Ref2se with a power supply for each channel as I described.

Thanks for acknowledging. It would had been wise if you had removed

"You tend toward blustering, maybe back off from that and do your homework." .

IMO someone who is such making systematic errors should be more prudent and show less condescendence in his advice. I see you were comparing apples with oranges.

It is a fact that we disagree on a lot of matters in the high-end, we have different perspectives and will debate many times.
 
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I was thinking in terms of Class A, A/B, D, etc.

Ok, but IMO there is more than "Class A, A/B, D, etc." when addressing amplifiers.

Julius Futterman patented an OTL (Output TransformerLess) design in 1953. His OTL amps in the '60s were not reliable and became a burden for future OTL manufacturers. Atma-Sphere amps are a Circlotron variant as was Tenor. I believe the "Zero-Hysteresis Output Transformerless." (ZOTL) developed by Berning is another variant of OTL design although technically not an OTL.

In fact your belief is not correct - the Berning (there is a patent on it) is a fundamentally different type of amplifier, nothing to do with Futterman patent. I hope Ralph Karsten comes here and explains it, he did it many times - it is a long lasting subject for him... Curiously now Berning has applied the same concept to a SET, that got a rave review in TAS.
 
Take speaker for example. Let's say we could bend the laws of physics. The perfect speaker would be a single driver that could play a range of 15Hz to 30kHz (flat) and have an efficiency of 110 dB. This driver would be mounted in a simple manner. It would have perfect phase coherence. The whole thing would not look very impressive but it would sound unlike anything we have ever experienced. I am curious how many would buy this. It is not impressive to look at and there isn't much to impress your friends with visually.

Well, I’m guessing that the answer to your hypothetical question is that most audiophiles would buy the simpler yet superior sounding speaker. But why stop there in this exercise of a Socratic ideal, especially if we’re allowed to bend the laws of physics.

Let’s have a complete audio system with a superior source (we won’t say whether it’s digital or analog because the bent laws of physics won’t allow this) and a simple amplifier consisting of a superior circuit in a simple box, along with our superior yet simple single driver loudspeaker.

Because these are simple objects and of greatly superior sound quality they are in high demand and manufacturers are able to make them with such economies of scale that nearly everyone can afford them. The formerly elaborate and complex sound system becomes a simple utilitarian instrument like a hammer.

Because superior sound is now available to all at low cost, there is hardly any need for audiophilia and all that obsessive and neurotic energy which accompanies it must be dissipated through other pursuits such as stamp collecting or origami.

This is why we must never bend the laws of physics.
 
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Yes, dollars can buy extended frequency extremes, but it doesn’t guarantee good sound. Good sound comes from knowledge, experience, dedication, and experimentation -factors that matter far more than simply achieving frequency extremes in an audio setup.

I heard extremely expensive setups sound like crap and very affordable ones making music that I like to keep listening. The very distinction between them was always knowledge, experience etc.

When I wrote "dollars buy more complete frequency extremes", I did not say anything about guarantees. The most important experience you speak of is, imo, experience with live music.
 
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Thanks for acknowledging. It would had been wise if you had removed

"You tend toward blustering, maybe back off from that and do your homework." .

IMO someone who is such making systematic errors should be more prudent and show less condescendence in his advice. I see you were comparing apples with oranges.

It is a fact that we disagree on a lot of matters in the high-end, we have different perspectives and will debate many times.

When you reappeared I stuck up for you with others, but you have not changed. Let's agree not to interact.
 
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I tend to espouse a philosophy of trying different solutions, and not succumbing to the WBF myth that there's anything that's "best". That's nice for running this website as a catchy phrase meant to suck you in into wasting your time debating this issue, but in reality, nothing in life is easily described as what's best (is there a "best" country?).

So in terms of loudspeakers, I have in home a lot of different models, and one of my favorites is this single-driver model handmade by Gordon Rankin of Wavelength, nicely encased in a bamboo cabinet and uses a single Altec 755C driver. No crossover. It sounds wonderful, but if you want to scare all the bats in your neighborhood with that hyper-bright metallic tweeter (my ears hurt just typing this phrase), this is not the speaker for you. Similarly, if you want to have your "pants flapping in the breeze" from the bass, one of the many silly phrases that Stereophile writers use to sell more copy, this is not the model. What it does, it does well, which is present music between 70 Hz - 10 kHz at a moderate volume so you can hang on to your hearing into old age. As Peter Walker said a long time ago, a speaker is great or lousy long before it gets to 10 Khz (paraphrasing his exact quote). Walker's own solution -- the ESL 63 which was only released in 1981 or so after almost 20 years of development to get it perfected -- was considerably more complex, with delay lines to mimic this single driver idea.

We are so far away from having a loudspeaker that can even resolve 16-bit audio, let alone 24-bit, which is probably mathematically impossible and lies outside what you can do with physical media. To resolve 24-bits of resolution, a loudspeaker will need to have a THD of -140 dB. To put this in perspective, the best current loudspeakers struggle to achieve even -60 dB uniformly across 20Hz 20Khz. The ESL 63 can manage to get below -70 dB only between 100 Hz to 15 Khz or so, but at volumes less than 90 dB. Most box loudspeakers are woefully bad at resolving information in the bass, and even famous professional loudspeakers like the JBLs have distortion of around -50 dB in the bass (8 bits of resolution). So, to me, the OP was right: the hardest problem in high end audio remains loudspeakers (and of course room coloration). Building 100 pound media servers is nice to make money, but that's not the hard problem. Even the humble Eversolo DMP-A8 has all distortion below -130dB.

Digital media servers and streaming are a solved problem, thanks to clever mathematics and engineering that was done a long time ago. Loudspeakers require a lot of new science still. But there's no money in it. The National Science Foundation (what will remain of it once DOGE cleans out the government) will hardly fund any basic research on loudspeakers. So, I am pessimistic we'll see any fundamental advances here beyond what we already have, despite marketing brochures aimed to sell fancy loudspeakers.

altec755.jpeg
 
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When you reappeared I stuck up for you with others, but you have not changed. Let's agree not to interact.

I do not need your permission or support to post in this forum. Since long you try to create rules and moderate posts in WBF, focusing in posters, not content. I will keep a free independent opinion on this forum, posting my views, even if they disturb a few people who prefer to ignore the objective side of this hobby and its connection with the subjective.

I respect the moderators of WBF and will feel free to post in any thread I find interesting, even at the risk of directly agreeing or disagreeing with you.
 
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I tend to espouse a philosophy of trying different solutions, and not succumbing to the WBF myth that there's anything that's "best". That's nice for running this website as a catchy phrase meant to suck you in into wasting your time debating this issue, but in reality, nothing in life is easily described as what's best (is there a "best" country?).
Almost everyone points to frequency response (FR) as being of “uber alles” importance.
And fewer agree whether step function and impulse response are very important.

Obviously (or not) if one has a perfect FR, then it would be nice to also have a perfect impulse response.

Once one gets a system into a room, the frequency response to get somewhat shot to hell, but the system usually still sounds pretty good.
Some people use DSPs to get the in situ FR more optimised, and others use DIRAC like heal up and optimise impulse response.

It is probably more ideal to have the speaker closer to perfect to begin with, as there is often a limit in how much processing can heal things up.

I think we can comparing this to things like a ‘best Country” or best cities.
One always sees the usual places in the top 10… like Zurich, Melbourne, Toronto, Copenhagen, Helsinki, Oslo, etc…
(Usually places where women can walk around and live to tell the tale, are quantified along with other metric.)

Speakers are similar in that they do not adulterate and destroy the signals, and the attributes that make them good or bad are also quantifiable.

So yeah in perfect world, the engineering applies the physics and things continue to get better.
And some corrections can be done electrically to beat down remaining non-linearity.

But there are still stacks of people that will equate high-cost and high-mass and complexity with “best”.


So in terms of loudspeakers, I have in home a lot of different models, and one of my favorites is this single-driver model handmade by Gordon Rankin of Wavelength, nicely encased in a bamboo cabinet and uses a single Altec 755C driver. No crossover. It sounds wonderful, but if you want to scare all the bats in your neighborhood with that hyper-bright metallic tweeter (my ears hurt just typing this phrase), this is not the speaker for you. Similarly, if you want to have your "pants flapping in the breeze" from the bass, one of the many silly phrases that Stereophile writers use to sell more copy, this is not the model. What it does, it does well, which is present music between 70 Hz - 10 kHz at a moderate volume so you can hang on to your hearing into old age. As Peter Walker said a long time ago, a speaker is great or lousy long before it gets to 10 Khz (paraphrasing his exact quote). Walker's own solution -- the ESL 63 which was only released in 1981 or so after almost 20 years of development to get it perfected -- was considerably more complex, with delay lines to mimic this single driver idea.
That ESL has a great impulse/step response.
Most speakers are not as good.


We are so far away from having a loudspeaker that can even resolve 16-bit audio, let alone 24-bit, which is probably mathematically impossible and lies outside what you can do with physical media. To resolve 24-bits of resolution, a loudspeaker will need to have a THD of -140 dB. To put this in perspective, the best current loudspeakers struggle to achieve even -60 dB uniformly across 20Hz 20Khz. The ESL 63 can manage to get below -70 dB only between 100 Hz to 15 Khz or so, but at volumes less than 90 dB. Most box loudspeakers are woefully bad at resolving information in the bass, and even famous professional loudspeakers like the JBLs have distortion of around -50 dB in the bass (8 bits of resolution). So, to me, the OP was right: the hardest problem in high end audio remains loudspeakers (and of course room coloration). Building 100 pound media servers is nice to make money, but that's not the hard problem. Even the humble Eversolo DMP-A8 has all distortion below -130dB.
We are not very sensitive to distortion in the bass frequency range.
And I doubt that we really need 140 dB of dynamic range in the speaker.
Our hearing dynamic range is usually listed as being 120 dB, however there is the tensor tympani muscle, which means that we can hear down towards 0 deci-Bel when it is relaxed, and maybe towards (who knows) 60-70dB(?), and then as it tightens it is more like 80-120dB.
So it is a sliding window of dynamic range that is controlled by the muscle tension… and we do not hear at 0 deci-Bel and 120 dB simultaneously.

And there had been some good work done to make motors more linear, which reduces their distortions (IMD/HD), as well as work in mitigating cone breakup, and diffraction.
I could envision that a -60dB uniformity of the 40+ year old Quad could be improved by 10dB or more using some digital correction schemes.
But then there is the pesky subjective listening, and the (almost) fact that a lot of people really like distortions.
Those high distortion (musical) amps set themselves apart, and people seem to buy them.


Digital media servers and streaming are a solved problem, thanks to clever mathematics and engineering that was done a long time ago. Loudspeakers require a lot of new science still. But there's no money in it. The National Science Foundation (what will remain of it once DOGE cleans out the government) will hardly fund any basic research on loudspeakers. So, I am pessimistic we'll see any fundamental advances here beyond what we already have, despite marketing brochures aimed to sell fancy loudspeakers.
The Canadians have contributed too, so there is hope with the Great White North. (Aka 51st/52nd state.)
 
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When I wrote "dollars buy more complete frequency extremes", I did not say anything about guarantees. The most important experience you speak of is, imo, experience with live music.
I agree. I meant experience in hifi hobby but experience with live music is also very important in my opinion.

I heard expensive and bad sounding setups but also extremely good sounding ones too. The point I’m trying to make is, how important an audiophile’s efforts for a hifi setup to sing. Naturally, if you know what you’re doing expensive setups offer more IMO.
 
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The problem I have with Lee’s claim is that it is general and universal. I agree with you that you can’t apply it to everyone’s opinion. But I disagree with you that it is not a valid phenomenon in our hobby.
I’d say for sure. Subjective evaluation is not about reliable projections and clearly definable calculations, nor is it usual to be about absolutes or universally predictable subjective outcomes… especially when it falls to being more about experiencing qualities rather than simple quantities.

So someone reports a marginal change in an area of performance due to a piece of gear and yet subjectively to another that same experience represents a night and day must have point of difference. How are we factoring in potentially wildly variable performance evaluation with subjective values into determining any return on investment?

Say some gear makes a strong argument for itself (to some) at a certain price point and yet another piece of gear at that same price point presents as a retrograde return in subjective value. None of this is universal. So it’s not just highly different performance response with different gear but also different appreciations with the different listeners. Can we ever determine universal rules based on the variability of subjective evaluation and the range of gear?

Really in ways wishing there was a law of diminishing return for some of the marketing hype about determinations on levels of diminishing returns as being or not being breached… when are rules ever rules when all of it is variable?
 
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When you reappeared I stuck up for you with others, but you have not changed. Let's agree not to interact.
He has changed, he is more aggressive now, but always adds a emoji to make up for it :rolleyes:
 
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He has changed, he is more aggressive now, but always adds a emoji to make up for it :rolleyes:

He did the emoji things before as well ;)
 
He has changed, he is more aggressive now, but always adds a emoji to make up for it :rolleyes:

That said micro was correct about the line stage, as Tim was discussing phono and mistakenly mentioned line stage the discussion took the wrong turn, but let’s just agree that micro’s past behaviour was the cause ;)
 
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He has changed, he is more aggressive now, but always adds a emoji to make up for it :rolleyes:

I don't understand why you choose to take the wrong side here, Milan. It is clear that Tim made a mistake, but he also used this wording before he recognized his mistake, stating to Micro:

"You tend toward blustering, maybe back off from that and do your homework."

In response, Micro was entirely correct in pointing out that:

"IMO someone who is such making systematic errors should be more prudent and show less condescendence in his advice. I see you were comparing apples with oranges."

Yet while Tim had acknowledged his factual mistake, his only answer to Micro, when it comes to that, was:

"When you reappeared I stuck up for you with others, but you have not changed. Let's agree not to interact."

Rather than being blunt about what I really think of this answer, let me just say that I don’t agree that this is an appropriate response.
 
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That said micro was correct about the line stage, as Tim was discussing phono and mistakenly mentioned line stage

Indeed.

the discussion took the wrong turn, but let’s just agree that micro’s past behaviour was the cause

Well, no, let's not agree on that. There is no reason to.
 
I don't think this single driver in a simple box, without more, would sound very convincing. The frequency response might be there, but I don't think this is nearly enough driver surface area to move the amount of air needed to be convincing.
Most convincing Single driver speaker

Example from iPhone …

Although this single driver speaker is different from the single box unit Ron was talking about above, it seems fairly convincing for a single 8” driver. Although there may have been complexity in design of both the driver and horn, it seems to convey the entire frequency without the complexity of an added crossover that the thread is looking for.

I may be naive as I haven’t heard better, especially from a hotel room without room tunes, however Ron if you could educate me with your system playing this song, recorded onto a phone and downloaded to YouTube as this one was, then attached herein, I might better understand what simplicity in speaker design lacks.
 
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That said micro was correct about the line stage, as Tim was discussing phono and mistakenly mentioned line stage the discussion took the wrong turn, but let’s just agree that micro’s past behaviour was the cause ;)

I said the Ref 10 linestage was composed of two Ref2se. The Ref2se is a phono stage and so yes I made an error saying Ref 10 linestage when I meant to say Ref 10 phonostage.

All that was needed was a correction, something like "I think you mean phonostage instead of linestage."

But no, next comes a denial that there is a Ref2s along with with a schematic of the early ARC product and a smart remark about "coded references" whatever that is.

First, there is no ARC ref2se - there is the ref2 mk2 , issued in 2000, an update of the ARC ref2 issued in 1998. ... You are probably addressing the REF5 and REF5SE - I can see that coded references are not your strong point anymore.

Lost in all of this was the point I made earlier that dedicated power supplies for each channel can be an improvement and I used the Ref 10 (phono or linestage both have them) as an example. Did he pick up on that, No, he just wanted to argue. Across the entire dialog he had no positive contribution to make, only to score points or whatever motive he operates under. I am done with him. Let Al M defend him, seems fitting.
 
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I agree. I meant experience in hifi hobby but experience with live music is also very important in my opinion.

I heard expensive and bad sounding setups but also extremely good sounding ones too. The point I’m trying to make is, how important an audiophile’s efforts for a hifi setup to sing. Naturally, if you know what you’re doing expensive setups offer more IMO.

The corollary to ^that^ is that with people may not know what they are doing, then a less complex and simpler setup removes a lot of pitfall opportunities.

Somewhat similar could be using XLRs over RCAs.
If one does not want to futz with super expensive ICs to tune and voice the system, then XLRs are potentially less problematic and less impactful.

The Haus-boss likes something that is easy to use, and at least to meet some minimal WAF/Feng-Shui standards.
A lot of gear looks like it was designed in a gymnasium. or in a testosterone therapy clinic.
Some of those systems become monstrosities along the lines of statements.

If the lady folk will not even enter the room, then how well and realistically it plays Barry White, becomes somewhat of a moot point.
 
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Let Al M defend him, seems fitting.
Digital brotherhood. Al, Wil and Micro are the digital three musketeers
 
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Digital brotherhood. Al, Wil and Micro are the digital three musketeers

What does this have to do with "digital"? Do you really think so much in terms of "tribes", rather than paying attention to the actual characteristics of the behavior of certain forum members?

If Tim were a digital guy and Microstrip a vinyl-only guy I would have come to the same assessment of the situation as in #114.
 
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