Are You Able to Detect Horn Colorations in Today's High End Horn Speakers?

Bjorn said:
Cupped hands effect is simply non existing with a quality horn speaker. We need to understand that price, purchased reviews (yes, that's often what they are), and rumours say very little about the quality for a speaker.

Some of the long existing and known brands have very poor tehcnicial implementations. Typical charactersticis like strong beaming, non uniform directivity, non optimal crossover-overs with serious vertical phase and lobing issues, coloration from material/lack of rigiditiy, passive crossover with no time alignment between drivers and uneven response, diffraction issues with horns placed in front of the other, and low driver quality are often the norm.

One has to look for quality technical implementations and good measurements.
Click to expand...
The last good good horn speakers I've heard, were Aries Cerat horns. They still exhibited "horn sound" to my ears, when played loudly. As did the last two Avantegarde models I've listened to (the Duo and Trio) and the Classic Audio horns when I heard them.

The vast majority of the time, cupped hands and shouting aren't a thing. But sometimes, depending on what you're listening to, they are. It's rare, but it's there.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Audiohertz2
Audiohertz2 said:
With all the imaging ( or lack there of) cluttered between the speakers , Bringing many horn lovers to praise the great “mono” revival …!
Click to expand...
Really?

I've had a good number of people comment that my speakers sound more like ESLs due to their speed and nuance. But maybe I'm misunderstanding your comment.
lordcloud said:
I think we all just hear differently. I don't think there is a consensus as to what the best actually are. But I've heard the best Avantegarde, Aries Cerat, Cessaaro, and others, driven by the some of the best equipment, and they all sound great ...but still have horn characteristics on occasion.

Some may not agree or may not hear it. That's great.
Click to expand...
All humans use the same rules of hearing perception. This is why we can use deciBels to meter sound pressure, why 'hifi' needs to be 20Hz-20KHz and so on. Some people might have damaged hearing and some people can be more sensitive. (I used to hear up to 26KHz when I was in my 20s; ultrasonic alarms used in the 1970s were audible to me. No where near that now...)

I never liked AvantGardes. Not heard the others you mentioned so I can't comment. My speakers are a custom (the custom part being the cabinet size is a little larger so they are flat to 20Hz) set of Classic Audio Loudspeakers model T3.3. They have beryllium diaphragms in the midrange drivers which have their first breakup at 35KHz. Between that and the Kapton surround suspension they use (which extends the LF response of the driver) they are nice and smooth. IME/IMO one of the problems with horns in general is that breakups in the drivers are rendered more intense by the horn, so its vital there be none.

The horn design itself is critical as the taper can introduce distortion. In the old days the flare was calculated by slide rule but these days the best horns have their flare computer optimized. If there is an error in that, for example where the throat of the horn meets the mouth, there can be significant artifact. TAD machined wood horns had this problem; fixing its makes a system using them a lot easier to listen to (I've heard the difference).

Those are a few of the variables. You can see that they really need to be nailed down in the same manner as they might be in any other component in a system.
 
Atmasphere said:
Really?

I've had a good number of people comment that my speakers sound more like ESLs due to their speed and nuance. But maybe I'm misunderstanding your comment.

All humans use the same rules of hearing perception. This is why we can use deciBels to meter sound pressure, why 'hifi' needs to be 20Hz-20KHz and so on. Some people might have damaged hearing and some people can be more sensitive. (I used to hear up to 26KHz when I was in my 20s; ultrasonic alarms used in the 1970s were audible to me. No where near that now...)

I never liked AvantGardes. Not heard the others you mentioned so I can't comment. My speakers are a custom (the custom part being the cabinet size is a little larger so they are flat to 20Hz) set of Classic Audio Loudspeakers model T3.3. They have beryllium diaphragms in the midrange drivers which have their first breakup at 35KHz. Between that and the Kapton surround suspension they use (which extends the LF response of the driver) they are nice and smooth. IME/IMO one of the problems with horns in general is that breakups in the drivers are rendered more intense by the horn, so its vital there be none.

The horn design itself is critical as the taper can introduce distortion. In the old days the flare was calculated by slide rule but these days the best horns have their flare computer optimized. If there is an error in that, for example where the throat of the horn meets the mouth, there can be significant artifact. TAD machined wood horns had this problem; fixing its makes a system using them a lot easier to listen to (I've heard the difference).

Those are a few of the variables. You can see that they really need to be nailed down in the same manner as they might be in any other component in a system.
Click to expand...
Flat to 20hz as in the baffles are flat… :)

cmon Ralph we would like to take your comments serious not dubious ..
 
  • Like
Reactions: Kingrex and analogsa
Audiohertz2 said:
Flat to 20hz as in the baffles are flat… :)

cmon Ralph we would like to take your comments serious not dubious ..
Click to expand...
The speakers are bass reflex and the TAD 1602s have a free air resonance of either 21 or 22Hz. So being flat to 20Hz really is no worries. If you've seen photos of this speaker you know they are quite large. They weigh about 275 pounds each.
 
lordcloud said:
The last good good horn speakers I've heard, were Aries Cerat horns. They still exhibited "horn sound" to my ears, when played loudly. As did the last two Avantegarde models I've listened to (the Duo and Trio) and the Classic Audio horns when I heard them.

The vast majority of the time, cupped hands and shouting aren't a thing. But sometimes, depending on what you're listening to, they are. It's rare, but it's there.
Click to expand...
The question is why you consider them good if they have horn sound. If that's the case, they are simply not good designs. Quality horns doesn't have that all.

Don't be fooled by commercial, reviews and rumours. Placing horns in front of the others is recipe for diffraction issues. I also notice that this company has no measurements or proper technical information. That should raise a flag!
 
  • Like
Reactions: bonzo75
Bjorn said:
The question is why you consider them good if they have horn sound. If that's the case, they are simply not good designs. Quality horns doesn't have that all.

Don't be fooled by commercial, reviews and rumours. Placing horns in front of the others is recipe for diffraction issues. I also notice that this company has no measurements or proper technical information. That should raise a flag!
Click to expand...
This is like saying a box speaker isn't good because it has flaws, or flaws typical of most box speakers. No speaker or speaker topology is perfect.

Horns aren't my cup of tea, in general. But some of them do some things very right. Sadurni horns, for instance, create the most palpable images I think I've ever heard. And some DIY horns sound great, and don't exhibit any of the typical horn flaws, with the material I've listened to on them. However, every horn I've ever heard suffers from a lack of depth, that I think is a byproduct of the way horns throw sound into the room. Or maybe not..
 
  • Like
Reactions: Audiohertz2
Bjorn said:
The question is why you consider them good if they have horn sound. If that's the case, they are simply not good designs. Quality horns doesn't have that all.
Click to expand...
What about ported box dynamic driver speakers having a sound?? All speakers have a sound. They are all tuned by the manufacturer to create a sound. I don't usually like the sound of a cone in a ported box. Just a preference.
 
  • Like
Reactions: lordcloud
Kingrex said:
What about ported box dynamic driver speakers having a sound?? All speakers have a sound. They are all tuned by the manufacturer to create a sound. I don't usually like the sound of a cone in a ported box. Just a preference.
Click to expand...
Bad ported( plenty of those) boxes , me neither , the good ones have the best most natural of bass ..
 
I appreciate what s good subwoofer can do for bass in most any system.

Ported boxes have their own type of sound. Sealed box too. Its usually very distinct. Even speaker manufacturer products have a house sound. Usually. A room and electronics can shift it.

Just as most times you know if its a horn, you know if its drivers. Or if its a ribbon. Of course there could be exceptions.
I heard some horns about 5 years ago that sucked. I heard a horn sysrem a few times you knew was a horn. But it did some things very well. I know another horn system that you know is a horn. And is pretty livable. As in, you could listen every day. Its very close to good enough. Maybe it is good enough.

What I would say is, a horn system that is off can be annoying. A dynamic driver speaker that is off is more booring. Not as much annoying. Maybe that's the issue with horn colorations. When you hear them, they can be off putting. When you hear a bad dynamic driver setup, your mostly unimpressed and happy to turn it off.
 
  • Like
Reactions: lordcloud
lordcloud said:
This is like saying a box speaker isn't good because it has flaws, or flaws typical of most box speakers. No speaker or speaker topology is perfect.
Click to expand...
It's quite the opposite.
A poor horn speaker doesn't decide the quality of horn speakers in general. And what you're describing is a weakness in the particular models you have heard. But you thought they were good horn designs for unknown reasons.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Atmasphere
Bjorn said:
It's quite the opposite.
A poor horn speaker doesn't decide the quality of horn speakers in general. And what you're describing is a weakness in the particular models you have heard. But you thought they were good horn designs for unknown reasons.
Click to expand...
This can be said for literally any and every audio component in an audio system. And it's still not completely accurate.

A good horn speaker doesn't decide the quality of how speakers in general either. Yet horn lovers seem to want to pretend that they do.

I've heard good and not so good horn speakers. They sound like horn speakers. Just good and not at good horn speakers.

Horn speakers have characteristics of their design that you can hear. Just like box speakers. Just like panel speakers Just like digital. Just like vinyl.

The Wadax/Varese/Horizon/Homerus not sounding like typical digital, doesn't mean digital doesn't have a digital sound. And even amongst those, some people still hear that it's digital. Same with horns.

You don't agree....cool story.
 
lordcloud said:
However, every horn I've ever heard suffers from a lack of depth, that I think is a byproduct of the way horns throw sound into the room. Or maybe not..
Click to expand...
It isn't. My horns have plenty of depth no worries!
lordcloud said:
I've heard good and not so good horn speakers. They sound like horn speakers.
Click to expand...
Actually people tell me that if they were blindfolded they would have guessed my speakers were ESLs in that they are super fast and transparent. You simply have yet to hear a good horn, apparently.
 
Atmasphere said:
It isn't. My horns have plenty of depth no worries!

Actually people tell me that if they were blindfolded they would have guessed my speakers were ESLs in that they are super fast and transparent. You simply have yet to hear a good horn, apparently.
Click to expand...

Unfortunately your specific speakers do not show in the Classic Audio site. Can you tell us what is the model closest to yours?
 
Atmasphere said:
It isn't. My horns have plenty of depth no worries!

Actually people tell me that if they were blindfolded they would have guessed my speakers were ESLs in that they are super fast and transparent. You simply have yet to hear a good horn, apparently.
Click to expand...
That must be it. I just haven't heard a good horn.....lol.
 
lordcloud said:
This can be said for literally any and every audio component in an audio system. And it's still not completely accurate.

A good horn speaker doesn't decide the quality of how speakers in general either. Yet horn lovers seem to want to pretend that they do.

I've heard good and not so good horn speakers. They sound like horn speakers. Just good and not at good horn speakers.

Horn speakers have characteristics of their design that you can hear. Just like box speakers. Just like panel speakers Just like digital. Just like vinyl.

The Wadax/Varese/Horizon/Homerus not sounding like typical digital, doesn't mean digital doesn't have a digital sound. And even amongst those, some people still hear that it's digital. Same with horns.

You don't agree....cool story.
Click to expand...

There are no you horn lovers. Most horn lovers dislike 95 percent of the horns, they are referring to only the best horns they like which takes it over. In all the horns that I like (not including the ones I don’t like) they all sound different if they are different designs and/or drivers.
 
  • Like
Reactions: mtemur and Atmasphere
Atmasphere said:
Well it certainly explains the disconnect.
Click to expand...
No it doesn't.

We are different people, with different brains, and different ears, and different priorities, and different preferences m... explains the disconnect.

I just heard a pair of Class Speaker horns. They sounded very good. Still sounded like horns.

The fact that you hear or don't hear something, doesn't mean that thing does or doesn't exist. The fact that a million people hear or don't hear something .... doesn't mean it does or doesn't exist.

Maybe I'll hear your specific horns and think they sound like quads. Maybe not. Doesn't mean they do or don't.

Many people hear your amps and think they sound, thin, sterile, or cold. I don't. Doesn't mean they are or are not sterile or cold sounding.
 
bonzo75 said:
There are no you horn lovers. Most horn lovers dislike 95 percent of the horns, they are referring to only the best horns they like which takes it over. In all the horns that I like (not including the ones I don’t like) they all sound different if they are different designs and/or drivers.
Click to expand...
There absolutely are horn lovers. Not liking the majority of the implementation of a thing, doesn't preclude you from being a lover of that thing in general.

I am a box speaker lover. I dislike more than 95% of them, as I'm not a fan of speakers with high order crossovers.

I don't disagree that horn speakers sound different. The best horns I've heard (Sadurni, Classic Audio, some DIY) all sound different. Just like every panel and box speaker I've heard sound different. But every box speaker sounds like a box speaker in comparison to a panel, and every panel sounds different in comparison to a horn, etc
 
You must log in or register to reply here.

Similar threads

Triode Pete
Feedback from the 2025 Florida International Audio Show
Replies
18
Views
2K
Triode Wire Labs
Triode Pete
Triode Pete
S
Best speakers I've ever heard under $350,000
Replies
75
Views
10K
General Audio Forum
Republicoftexas69
Republicoftexas69
1
BEST SPEAKERS FOR LISTENING LEVELS BETWEEN 50 AND 55 DBS
Replies
16
Views
1K
Speaker, Subwoofer And Headphone Audio Forum
gleeds
gleeds
A
Yuichi A290, TAD TH-4001, Yamamoto F350, Crowe ES290: Horn in Your 2 or 3-way Speakers?
Replies
2
Views
1K
DIY Audio Forum
iansr
I
H
Soundcraft Magnetics S20, a rather unknown, though exceptional recorder, which never entered regular production
Replies
6
Views
2K
Reel To Reel Tape Deck and Content Forum
HDVS
H

About us

  • What’s Best Forum is THE forum for high end audio, product reviews, advice and sharing experiences on the best of everything else. This is THE place where audiophiles and audio companies discuss vintage, contemporary and new audio products, music servers, music streamers, computer audio, digital-to-analog converters, turntables, phono stages, cartridges, reel-to-reel tape machines, speakers, headphones and tube and solid-state amplification. Founded in 2010 What’s Best Forum invites intelligent and courteous people of all interests and backgrounds to describe and discuss the best of everything. From beginners to life-long hobbyists to industry professionals, we enjoy learning about new things and meeting new people, and participating in spirited debates.

Quick Navigation

Home Forums

User Menu

Login
Steve Williams
Site Founder | Site Owner | Administrator
Ron Resnick
Site Owner | Administrator
Julian (The Fixer)
Website Build | Marketing Managersing
Top Bottom