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Fuse and Cable Directionality

racerxnet said:
Is the current to your speakers A/C? Is A/C directional ? If the fuse is between the cable doesn't the current move in both directions.
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My Von Schweikert VR9 SE Mk2 have powered subs built-in. Yes, A/C cables provide the power from a traditional/common power outlet and source. I am not going to open up the amp to play with a 1000 watt amp fuse to find out which direction sounds better below 50 or 60 Hz or lower. I'm lazy. If you are referring to my speaker cable from the amps, I assume it is bidirectional. While the speaker wires originate possibly with similar bidirectional characteristics initially, after burn-in they probably adopt directionality. I just know that the many fuses sound different initially and with burn-in. Too obvious with Acme, Hi-Fi Tuning and Synergistic Research fuses my friends and I have used.

My Lampizator Poseidon manufacturer specifically states NOT to play with the fuse, that it was chosen/used for it's protection and boutique fuses could be dangerous to the unit's health which in my case is $25,000 investment. I'm going to abide by the manufacturer wishes. For all my prior DACs, amps and pre-amps, etc. I did change the fuses as the supplied glass or ceramic fuses were junk (sonically).
 
racerxnet said:
You get the point. So some asshat spends big bucks and claims he can hear angels singing on a pin head due to a fuse. Great.
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Perhaps he’s not an asshat. Why criticize his personal choice? If it makes no sense to you, why not let it go at that?
 
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andromedaaudio said:
You mean i dont have a good/ revealing system enough , because i cant hear a difference .
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I posted this just now. While the speaker wires originate possibly with similar bidirectional characteristics initially, after burn-in they probably adopt directionality.

Some cables (many actually, I am a beta tester for GroverHuffman cables for over 20 years) acquire their preferred orientation after burn-in. Then keep them in that direction. Some cables are manufactured with significant/design oriented features which require proper initial insertion orientation.

So, it may not be the quality/resolution of your system but the cable design which just has no initial directional orientation.
 
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SeagoatLeo said:
, it may not be the quality/resolution of your system but the cable design which just has no initial directional orientation.
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Lucky for me then .
So u admit cheap is better.

I have heard so many systems with expensive cabling over the past 3 years
It would be the absolute last thing in the world i would spend a lot of money on apart from expensive fuses which seem like a complete rip off / waste of money to me built upon pseudo science
 
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Another Johnson said:
Perhaps he’s not an asshat. Why criticize his personal choice? If it makes no sense to you, why not let it go at that?
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Perhaps not and he or she may have cleaner ears and better hearing?
 
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racerxnet said:
I certainly understand the situation quite well. I guess that the boutique manufactures of such items appeal to a fool whose money is easily parted. Carry on.
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Unless you’ve listened to his system with him, you’re in no position to judge. What you can judge is how such changes affect your system.
I was a denier for over 30 years. But I changed my view when I started experimenting in my own system.
Your ears, your system. Not your opinion, someone else’s system. You can call the other person a fool, but this statement is only true from your perspective.
 
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Geoffkait said:
But you didn’t have a point. Wires and fuses in AC circuits are directional. No need for profanity.
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That 220v wire feeding your fuse panel is directional. It needs 20 years to burn in. The 13.6kv to the transformer needs an additional 5 years. Your point that a amplifier or speakers with a fuse requires a directional one is ludicrous. It is taken out of context for the intended purpose. Lol.
 
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andromedaaudio said:
Lucky for me then .
So u admit cheap is better.

I have heard so many systems with expensive cabling over the past 3 years
It would be the absolute last thing in the world i would spend a lot of money on apart from expensive fuses which seem like a complete rip off / waste of money to me built upon pseudo science
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Said no one!
 
racerxnet said:
That 220v wire feeding your fuse panel is directional. It needs 20 years to burn in. The 13.6kv to the transformer needs an additional 5 years. Your point that a amplifier or speakers with a fuse requires a directional one is ludicrous. It is taken out of context for the intended purpose. Lol.
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You’re not following. You’re putting words in my mouth. All fuses are inherently directional, as is all wire. Even stock non-audiophile fuses like Bussman and Littelfuse fuses are directional. Capish?
 
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SeagoatLeo said:
Audiophile Fuses | What's Best Audio and Video Forum. The Best High End Audio Forum on the planet! (whatsbestforum.com) Has an uneducated audiophile who posted nonsense that all fuses are non-directional and not up for debate.

I own high end equipment as do friends of mine, several other best friends are electronic and cable manufacturers, remastering engineers and record reviewers. We all know that fuses can be highly directional, just as much as non-polarized power plugs were on older equipment (where one direction plug in could sound very different from the reverse and often did). This was especially true with my ten years using Synergistic Research, now only using treated Acme fuses. By denying all directionality (it may not always be true for all fuses as we haven't tried all fuses) that poster on that thread sounds more like Audio Science Review members and owner. Ridiculous to deny just as it is ridiculous to state that all cables sound the same if they test the same. We don't know why fuses are generally directional in mid to high end audio equipment but it is.
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This is all due to Ohm's Law.

The reason fuses appear to be directional is that they are not perfectly cylindrical and the fuseholders for them are not perfect either. So if you turn the fuse around, you might get a better fit so the Voltage drop across the fuseholder is lower. You can measure (and hear) the effects of that Voltage drop, depending on the kind of equipment used with it (tubes are more sensitive because their filament circuits cool off when there is a greater Voltage drop).

You can get the same effect by simply spinning the fuse in its holder without reversing it, until you obtain the lowest Voltage drop (which can be measured by any 3 1/2 digit Voltmeter). TRY IT.

Some cables are directional owing to which end the shield might be grounded to, if at the other end the shield isn't grounded. But that directionality will have a lot to do with how well the grounding scheme of the associated equipment really is.

Power cords also experience a Voltage drop as do AC power outlets. The Voltage drop is measurable and the effect it has on the equipment used is measurable (I once measured a 40 Watt loss out of one of our amps entirely due to that Voltage drop; that sort of thing is also easily heard).

Beyond that, directionality of fuses and wire does not exist in AC circuits. If you understand engineering you know why this is so. If you don't, that's OK but at the least I've given you the tools to see how this works.

If wire or fuses were truly directional, they would heat up and fail in short order. Bottom line: when you hear differences due to fuses, fuse direction, power cords, AC outlets or in-wall wiring changes, its all due to Voltage drop and nothing else (unless there's some kind of noise or ground problem due to wiring error of shoddy ground practices).
 
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andromedaaudio said:
Lucky for me then .
So u admit cheap is better.

I have heard so many systems with expensive cabling over the past 3 years
It would be the absolute last thing in the world i would spend a lot of money on apart from expensive fuses which seem like a complete rip off / waste of money to me built upon pseudo science
Click to expand...
The corollary is not true either. Yes, so many high priced cables are worse than cheap ones. I'm 68, have heard a 1000 audio systems at shows and homes. Blue Jeans/Belden cables are great, not just for their pittance of cost. They are neutral and expressive of the sound of the equipment. In a high end system, one benefits greatly from better equipment with Belden cables than the inverse of lower end quality equipment with high end cabling.

4 decades ago Monster 300M original ICs (not later versions) were better sounding than most zip cord and RCA cables. Today, I consider them plummy in the bass and rolled off in the highs, relatively inferior in resolution but pleasant sounding. Belden cables in my experience is far superior for home audio systems than Mogami or Canare. I have only tried their digital, RCA and XLR cables to date. For $35, the Blue Jeans digital cable is extremely superior to the $1500 Synergistic Research Atmosphere Euphoria X cable. Sorry SR, your cables are overpriced and underperformers.

I have a neighbor with a $1/2 million high end system that sounded discombobulated with bass response extremely ragged (missing every other note on a bowed bass-so weird). He is a retired electrical engineer. He believed that cabling makes a difference in ICs and speaker wire but not in power cables as he "knew" how electricity works. He was using Pangea cheap power cables. I lent him an older version of GroverHuffman Empress cable to use on his amp ($400). He was ecstatic. He purchased all six of the GroverHuffman Pharoah power cables $3.6K) and I can enjoy music at his home with a linear frequency response and proper imaging.
 
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Atmasphere said:
This is all due to Ohm's Law.

The reason fuses appear to be directional is that they are not perfectly cylindrical and the fuseholders for them are not perfect either. So if you turn the fuse around, you might get a better fit so the Voltage drop across the fuseholder is lower. You can measure (and hear) the effects of that Voltage drop, depending on the kind of equipment used with it (tubes are more sensitive because their filament circuits cool off when there is a greater Voltage drop).

You can get the same effect by simply spinning the fuse in its holder without reversing it, until you obtain the lowest Voltage drop (which can be measured by any 3 1/2 digit Voltmeter). TRY IT.

Some cables are directional owing to which end the shield might be grounded to, if at the other end the shield isn't grounded. But that directionality will have a lot to do with how well the grounding scheme of the associated equipment really is.

Power cords also experience a Voltage drop as do AC power outlets. The Voltage drop is measurable and the effect it has on the equipment used is measurable (I once measured a 40 Watt loss out of one of our amps entirely due to that Voltage drop; that sort of thing is also easily heard).

Beyond that, directionality of fuses and wire does not exist in AC circuits. If you understand engineering you know why this is so. If you don't, that's OK but at the least I've given you the tools to see how this works.

If wire or fuses were truly directional, they would heat up and fail in short order. Bottom line: when you hear differences due to fuses, fuse direction, power cords, AC outlets or in-wall wiring changes, its all due to Voltage drop and nothing else (unless there's some kind of noise or ground problem due to wiring error of shoddy ground practices).
Click to expand...
Fuses, unlike fuse holders, are *predictable* in the sense the correct direction of a fuse never changes, the fuse is physically and electrically *asymmetrical.* Once the correct direction of a fuse is established it’s effect on sound is *repeatable* and *transferrable* to other systems. Furthermore, if *both* fuse end caps and *both* ends of the fuse holder are deformed as you claim they wouldn’t be directional, anyway, they’d be symmetrical.

Furthermore, the measurements of fuse resistivity in both directions provided in Exhibit A I posted earlier in the day were made without fuse holders. In any case, the audible effects, if any, of any fuse holder imperfections would certainly be much less profound and entirely different from that of fuse directionality. if both end caps suffered the same deformation you claim there would be no directionality issue. If the fuse cannot make positive physical or electrical contact with a particular fuse holder adjust the fuse holder or replace it pronto.

The term directionality refers to fuses and wire and *unshielded* cable - shielding is a separate, though similar, issue.

Fuses if directional would heat up and fail? You’re kidding, right?
 
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SeagoatLeo said:
a linear frequency response
Click to expand...

A lineair freq response you can determine best by measuring the speaker output with an analyser not with your ears .

A speaker cable called .....pharaoh,..... Cheops and Chefren would turn around in their grave / sarcophagus.

Ps i m not saying all flat measuring speakers sound good , its just one attribute.

And if a cable can change your freq response then there is something really wrong with it imo
 
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SeagoatLeo said:
My Von Schweikert VR9 SE Mk2 have powered subs built-in. Yes, A/C cables provide the power from a traditional/common power outlet and source. I am not going to open up the amp to play with a 1000 watt amp fuse to find out which direction sounds better below 50 or 60 Hz or lower. I'm lazy. If you are referring to my speaker cable from the amps, I assume it is bidirectional. While the speaker wires originate possibly with similar bidirectional characteristics initially, after burn-in they probably adopt directionality. I just know that the many fuses sound different initially and with burn-in. Too obvious with Acme, Hi-Fi Tuning and Synergistic Research fuses my friends and I have used.

My Lampizator Poseidon manufacturer specifically states NOT to play with the fuse, that it was chosen/used for it's protection and boutique fuses could be dangerous to the unit's health which in my case is $25,000 investment. I'm going to abide by the manufacturer wishes. For all my prior DACs, amps and pre-amps, etc. I did change the fuses as the supplied glass or ceramic fuses were junk (sonically).
Click to expand...
Yet, no one has ever heard of any equipment damage or fire or whatever due to an audiophile fuse - even though more than 120,000 fuses have been sold by the top 3 boutique fuse (as you say) companies in recent years. Faint heart ne’er won fair maiden. :)
 
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Atmasphere said:
This is all due to Ohm's Law.

The reason fuses appear to be directional is that they are not perfectly cylindrical and the fuseholders for them are not perfect either. So if you turn the fuse around, you might get a better fit so the Voltage drop across the fuseholder is lower. You can measure (and hear) the effects of that Voltage drop, depending on the kind of equipment used with it (tubes are more sensitive because their filament circuits cool off when there is a greater Voltage drop).

You can get the same effect by simply spinning the fuse in its holder without reversing it, until you obtain the lowest Voltage drop (which can be measured by any 3 1/2 digit Voltmeter). TRY IT.

Some cables are directional owing to which end the shield might be grounded to, if at the other end the shield isn't grounded. But that directionality will have a lot to do with how well the grounding scheme of the associated equipment really is.

Power cords also experience a Voltage drop as do AC power outlets. The Voltage drop is measurable and the effect it has on the equipment used is measurable (I once measured a 40 Watt loss out of one of our amps entirely due to that Voltage drop; that sort of thing is also easily heard).

Beyond that, directionality of fuses and wire does not exist in AC circuits. If you understand engineering you know why this is so. If you don't, that's OK but at the least I've given you the tools to see how this works.

If wire or fuses were truly directional, they would heat up and fail in short order. Bottom line: when you hear differences due to fuses, fuse direction, power cords, AC outlets or in-wall wiring changes, its all due to Voltage drop and nothing else (unless there's some kind of noise or ground problem due to wiring error of shoddy ground practices).
Click to expand...
Someone may want to encase a diode in the glass fuse tube. Now we are talking directionality. Probably sound 1 way!!!! Whatever that is....
 
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Atmasphere said:
Beyond that, directionality of fuses and wire does not exist in AC circuits. If you understand engineering you know why this is so. If you don't, that's OK but at the least I've given you the tools to see how this works.
Click to expand...
Actually, audio fuses are only used in AC audio circuits, but I suppose there could be a situation when a fuse is used in a DC circuit. Refer to the fuse datasheets (Exhibit A) from my post yesterday - the measured differences in resistivity of a number of audiophile and non-audiophile fuses were performed for fuses in AC circuits.

When the “signal” in either + or - wire moves in the direction of the speaker it causes the diaphragm to move. But when the “signal“ moves away from the speaker on either wire it does nothing. For a fuse, the signal moves in both directions on the wire it’s attached to according to the instantaneous audio frequency. It’s easy to see that the best fuse direction is when the voltage drop is lowest in the direction of the speakers.
 
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