Fuse and Cable Directionality

[Geoffkait]

Th

Okay, maybe I won't maximize the sound quality of a $110,000 VR9 SE Mk2 upgraded speaker or a $26,000 Poseidon DAC. I think they sound darn good as is. Certainly not the $34,000 Westminster Labs REI amps. I am not going to mess with them.

That‘s an excellent example of one of my favorite audiophile quotes, “My system sounds fabulous.” Why would someone not want to maximize the sound quality, especially with so much money and time at stake?

Good is the enemy of great. - Old audiophile axiom

 

[andromedaaudio]

@seagoat


Sorry for my late reaction i spend the whole day changing the cables like you said.


Seagoat the more you write the more you make the case for pseudo science.

 

[Geoffkait]

Sorry, missed it among the chaff. But I was really going down the "proof of listening" DBT path that is so maligned.

DBT is actually not proof of anything, I’m referring to a single DBT. Negative or inconclusive results of a DBT have no significance. Too many things can and do go wrong with any test. The one thing DBT is good for is threatening believers, “I bet it can’t pass a controlled blind test!”

 

[treitz3]

Gentlemen, good morning to you all. Let's lift the spirit of the thread, lighten up the tone of responses and talk (type) as you would, as if you were all in the same room together. A true Gentleman's discussion, in other words. Not the seemingly constant bickering and back and forth.

Heated discussions are one thing. Arguing just to argue is another thing and beneath this forum. We are better than this.

Tom

 

[Atmasphere]

Well, my friend tests the difference at the equipment for some electrical charge and finds a difference depending on the prong/input direction. One direction sounds superior to the other. Maybe your explanation is the reason.

The reason has to do with electrical leakage WRT the power transformer. Ideally the transformer should be hooked up in the equipment in such a way that electrical leakage (between neutral and the safety ground) is minimized. Meters are made for exactly this purpose- they have to be able to measure down to microamps.

This is what I know. In two EAR 890s, 912 and 864, all with the same style fuse holder, the superior direction of a fuse is repeatable in each of these units (same with my friends EAR units). Same within the manufacturer, such as my custom tube amps which require 8 amp slow blow fuses. SR fuses from black, blue, orange and purple all had consistent designation on the direction of the fuses (type/rating/amps) on the outside of the fuse holder to sound best. I have also tested this on various DACs and transports. Fuse direction superiority is repeatable within the same manufacturer/fuse.
P.S. I stopped using SR fuses as my friends and I now prefer the more neutral treated Acme fuses at $22/$24 a pop, (not like the new $250 SR Pink fuse or $600 white fuse-ridiculous prices).

As I mentioned in my first post here, try just measuring the Voltage drop across the fuse holder and rotating the fuse in the holder for minimum Voltage drop. Almost any DVM can measure that Voltage drop. Don't do this if you don't think you can do it without zapping yourself. You'll find though that this technique works as well or better. Its all about the contact quality you get between the fuse and the holder.

 

[DonH50]

Well, my friend tests the difference at the equipment for some electrical charge and finds a difference depending on the prong/input direction. One direction sounds superior to the other. Maybe your explanation is the reason.

There are several reasons for this, here are a few of the bigger ones IME:

1. Older equipment sometimes connected the neutral ("ground") prong directly to chassis, or through a small resistor, to provide shielding. Before polar plugs and outlets were required, it was common to try the (nonpolar) plug both ways to see which way sounded best.

2. Related to the above, improper grounding of the chassis (or the outlet -- I have seen a few miswired outlets through the years) can lead to ground loops, and again swapping the plug's orientation (or using a ground-lift adapter, not recommended!) fixes the problem.

3. RFI components and power transformers (as well as some other power supply components) usually assume a reference return ("ground") path that provides a low-impedance ground and minimizes leakage into the signal path. Get it wrong and you can have low-level buzzing and noise. This can be insidious because it can be at a very low (almost sub-audible) level so is known more by its absence than its presence, and the leakage path is usually high-impedance so easily modulating by high-frequency switching in the power supply or other internal (or external sources). It can induce broadband noise at the signal output. It can also be dangerous if something is wrong inside the component and the chassis is "hot". Note linear power supplies also generate high-frequency switching noise due to the rectifiers, and SMPS (switch-mode power supply) leakage and noise is possible with a poor design (some of the cheap linear or SMPS wall warts are notoriously noisy, whereas some of the SMPS in my world run at 1 MHz or more and are insanely clean, with much lower noise than most linear supplies I've measured).

Whenever running into something like this, I would use one of those inexpensive power plug testers (or a meter, but the plug-in tester is easier and safer) to verify the outlet is wired properly just as a precaution. If not, it is usually easy to fix, or have an electrician fix. Usually a just miswired plug or a loose safety ground at the plug or service box.

FWIWFM - Don

 

[DonH50]

Wow, talk about not able to change people‘s minds. This is Exhibit A - The Backfire Effect in action. As more and more contradictory evidence is presented the more tightly the naysayer holds on to his beliefs, struggling to come up with every possible defense. Science is supposed to be open-minded active search for truth, not a stubborn, unchanging, defensive Enterprise, resting on its laurels.

Your post is also an excellent example of not being able to see the Forest for the trees. You’ve looked everywhere including the sub-atomic level and you still can’t find anything. Hint: it’s right there in front of you.

you wrote,

”I am confused that, if current is caused by moving electrons (actually charge, in coulombs/second), and electrons change direction, how does current not change direction? If I measure current through an AC line, it clearly changes direction, and I am normally measuring at the macro (not electron) level. That is with respect to some reference, typically 0 V, of course. At the quantum level, electron flow (and thus current) driven by voltage fields does change direction with voltage polarity, by any reference I could find from basic Ohm's Law to my quantum mechanics grad texts. I suppose you can debate drift velocity vs. charge velocity and so forth but we're already far beyond what most forum members are likely to follow, or care about.”

I already explained current is a calculated number. Of course electrons are charge carriers. It’s a misnomer or misleading to call the circuit AC alternating current. I never said current changes direction, you did. The Poynting vector, that changes direction. It’s a vector.

Measurement error is not real? DBT's do not yield useful info? We must have attended different classes and had much different experience over the years on the scientific method and testing methodologies. In any event, since you've descended to insults again, I'll stop now. The one thing we agree on is that changing minds is unlikely once made up.

 

[Atmasphere]

Measurement error is not real? DBT's do not yield useful info? We must have attended different classes and had much different experience over the years on the scientific method and testing methodologies. In any event, since you've descended to insults again, I'll stop now. The one thing we agree on is that changing minds is unlikely once made up.

Its real when you can measure the why of what you also hear.

With fuses and power cords and the like the measurement part is actually really easy. You measure the Voltage drop across the fuse, power cord or whatever and then you measure the effect it has on your equipment. In power amps in particular (since they draw more power) you measure output power, output impedance and distortion. You find (especially in tube equipment where the Voltage drop affects the filament circuits) these things change as the AC line Voltage changes.

The more effective the feedback used (if any) in the equipment; the more power regulation (and how effective it is) the less the equipment is influenced by the AC line Voltage. This is why this conversation of fuses and such is so variable across the web; it really depends on how sensitive the equipment is to the AC line Voltage.

 

[audiom3]

I have no idea on the merits of cable or fuse directionality. But I always just follow the arrows or the electrical path anyway. I know with Ayre VX-5 Twenty amps (8 rail fuses), the fuses should point out with circuits containing Brown/red wires and in with the blue/black wires. No clue if it sounds any differently to be honest. I've just always had them this way.

I once installed a pair of Audio Sensibility speaker cables in reverse on one side. So arrows were pointing at the speaker in the left channel and toward the amp on the right channel. An email to Steven confirmed there was no harm or little/much difference either way. I eventually flipped it around (thank you OCD) during one clean-up and relocation day. I didn't note any change in SQ. But admittedly, it is very hard/impossible to compare thoroughly after several hours.

 

[Geoffkait]

Post removed.

I have no idea on the merits of cable or fuse directionality. But I always just follow the arrows or the electrical path anyway. I know with Ayre VX-5 Twenty amps (8 rail fuses), the fuses should point out with circuits containing Brown/red wires and in with the blue/black wires. No clue if it sounds any differently to be honest. I've just always had them this way.

I once installed a pair of Audio Sensibility speaker cables in reverse on one side. So arrows were pointing at the speaker in the left channel and toward the amp on the right channel. An email to Steven confirmed there was no harm or little/much difference either way. I eventually flipped it around (thank you OCD) during one clean-up and relocation day. I didn't note any change in SQ. But admittedly, it is very hard/impossible to compare thoroughly after several hours.

Most likely their continuous cast (molten) copper conductors are not directional. Problem solved. Arrows for shield direction.

 

[Kingrex]

Most likely their continuous cast (molten) copper conductors are not directional. Problem solved.

I thought continuous cast was a pot of molten copper that is extruded through a nozzle and directly into heated dies that maintain propper temperature and cool rate as the rod is then slowly squeezed down to size. This type wire is low grain depenent on the purity of base metal as well as the speed it is drawn through the dies as well as cooling rate. It is very directional.

If you believe continuous cast is pouring molten cooper into a form which I agree would have no directionality then please show me where continuous cast is defined that way

 

[Geoffkait]

I thought continuous cast was a pot of molten copper that is extruded through a nozzle and directly into heated dies that maintain propper temperature and cool rate as the rod is then slowly squeezed down to size. This type wire is low grain depenent on the purity of base metal as well as the speed it is drawn through the dies as well as cooling rate. It is very directional.

If you believe continuous cast is pouring molten cooper into a form which I agree would have no directionality then please show me where continuous cast is defined that way.

Go to Audio Sensibility web site and check it out, dude.

https://www.audiosensibility.com/faq/TechnologyOverviewSlideshow.pdf

 

[treitz3]

This thread has been cleaned up and posts were removed. Please allow me to remind you that our goal here at the WBF is to offer a friendly place where everyone shares ideas and information without the level of bickering and angst that other forums tend to create. Many posts were off topic, confrontational and not in the spirit of friendly conversation.

Please stay on topic and above all, focus on the topic being discussed, rather than the person discussing it.

Tom

 

[DonH50]

I have no idea on the merits of cable or fuse directionality. But I always just follow the arrows or the electrical path anyway. I know with Ayre VX-5 Twenty amps (8 rail fuses), the fuses should point out with circuits containing Brown/red wires and in with the blue/black wires. No clue if it sounds any differently to be honest. I've just always had them this way.

I once installed a pair of Audio Sensibility speaker cables in reverse on one side. So arrows were pointing at the speaker in the left channel and toward the amp on the right channel. An email to Steven confirmed there was no harm or little/much difference either way. I eventually flipped it around (thank you OCD) during one clean-up and relocation day. I didn't note any change in SQ. But admittedly, it is very hard/impossible to compare thoroughly after several hours.

There are cables (low-level and speaker) that include networks at one end, and those networks are generally meant to be at either the source or load end, so checking is a good idea. Some pro audio cables, typically patch cables, include arrows not for directionality but to indicate which end is connected to the shield of a balanced (XLR/TRS) cable. Breaking a ground loop for a differential system without (much) compromising shielding can be done by lifting the outer shield connection to chassis ground at one end, leaving the inner pair intact. By convention ground is usually lifted at the load end but often enough it is where it is easiest to do. Some cables and DI boxes include a switch to lift the ground (shield) connection. Invaluable in a patch bay or on a snake with many cables.

For a series circuit like a fuse or cable, the drop is the same given an AC signal no matter which end is connected to source or load. The only truly directional fuses I have seen included anti-arc components inside and exhibited some sensitivity to orientation in a DC circuit, but I don't think that's what is being discussed here. In that case the drop was still symmetric, did not depend upon orientation, but the protection worked better when the fuse/breaker was oriented in the "right" direction. I suspect in the real world even that mattered much.

In any event, I've said my piece, had enough pseudo or at least misapplied science, and received enough emails to stay away, that I'll leave it here.

Have a good weekend!

 

[Kingrex]

Go to Audio Sensibility web site and check it out, dude.

https://www.audiosensibility.com/faq/TechnologyOverviewSlideshow.pdf

I called the manufacture instead. No they do not cast a final wire. They draw wire down like anyone else. The wire will develop a direction when drawing. But. They do not keep track of how many times the wire was drawn of the direction it was drawn. What this means is the wire might be 10 awg. Then its drawn to a 14 and respooled. It may sit for a time, then be pulled off the shelf and drawn again to 18 awg. Then again to 22 awg. If it went from one spool to another spool, the second draw would be in the opposite direction of the first draw. This could happen multiple times. Ergo, the direction is not known. In my words, not the manufacturer, the internal structure may be a bit convoluted now as it has gone back and forth creating conflicting directional patterns.

If a manufacturer cared about direction, they would have to draw the wire and stack it onto a spool. Then they would have to wind it off the take off spool to another spool to get the forward direction reset. Then run it through the second set of sizing dies. This would take additional machines and handling. If someone were to not care about directionality, then it would be wasting time to do this.

I would agree directionality is a smaller influence to overall sonics than say, gauge, geometry, material, solder, terminal ends.
But I believe some of the bigger cable makers such as Audio Quest and Shunyata pay attention to the wire draw direction and build to it. Its not a requirement to make a good cable. But some people care enough to pay attention and work with it.

 

[Geoffkait]

I called the manufacture instead. No they do not cast a final wire. They draw wire down like anyone else. The wire will develop a direction when drawing. But. They do not keep track of how many times the wire was drawn of the direction it was drawn. What this means is the wire might be 10 awg. Then its drawn to a 14 and respooled. It may sit for a time, then be pulled off the shelf and drawn again to 18 awg. Then again to 22 awg. If it went from one spool to another spool, the second draw would be in the opposite direction of the first draw. This could happen multiple times. Ergo, the direction is not known. In my words, not the manufacturer, the internal structure may be a bit convoluted now as it has gone back and forth creating conflicting directional patterns.

If a manufacturer cared about direction, they would have to draw the wire and stack it onto a spool. Then they would have to wind it off the take off spool to another spool to get the forward direction reset. Then run it through the second set of sizing dies. This would take additional machines and handling. If someone were to not care about directionality, then it would be wasting time to do this.

I would agree directionality is a smaller influence to overall sonics than say, gauge, geometry, material, solder, terminal ends.
But I believe some of the bigger cable makers such as Audio Quest and Shunyata pay attention to the wire draw direction and build to it. Its not a requirement to make a good cable. But some people care enough to pay attention and work with it.

Thanks for posting. By the way I posted Exhibit B - AudioQuest article on directionality and noise in cables several days ago on this thread. AudioQuest also highly polishes the conductor surface, which I suspect is a very good idea.

Cable Directionality: It's All About Noise

If you’ve ever wondered about the arrows on AudioQuest cables, read any of our educational materials, or merely followed any of the online chatter regarding our products, perhaps you’ve wondered what this “directionality” thing is all about.

www.audioquest.com

 

[Republicoftexas69]

Go to Audio Sensibility web site and check it out, dude.

https://www.audiosensibility.com/faq/TechnologyOverviewSlideshow.pdf

It says what Rex said.

 

[Geoffkait]

It says what Rex said.

So, are the Audio Sensibility cables directional or not?

 

[audiom3]

So, are the Audio Sensibility cables directional or not?

I posted above that they are. Or at least, they're all marked directionally.

 

[Geoffkait]

I posted above that they are. Or at least, they're all marked directionally.

But the arrows are for the shield direction, no? Not for the conductor direction.see his description of shielding on his web site. I’m not being judgmental but it appears he’s not on the board the wire directionality choo choo train.