High End Passion and Craftsmanship For Sure . . . But Also Occasionally High Cost and Unreliable?

[PeterA]

Peter has had Jim Smith set his room up.
He used to rave about him, but no more?

No need to ask Lee my opinion about Jim Smith. He did a great job in my room. I moved on from that system and then began to do my own set ups after learning some more stuff and getting a clear target.

 

[PeterA]

That is a complete and utter and blatant falcity … You know full well that I have owned Vitavox CN-191’s as I have posted to this forum on a couple of occasions about my experiences with them … However as my own considerations do not support your fantasy view about them you choose to stick your fingers in your ears and go LaaaaLaaaaaLaaaaa … didn't hear you .
I had refrained from posting my following considerations regarding the CN-191’s on your Natural sound thread , however I shall post them now in response :

“ By way of some balance … I have owned CN-191’s In the past , initially as a mono speaker in a dedicated mono system , later adding a second unit followed a third close matching unit to make up a final pair, I know how they work and how they sound and they are a bit of a curates egg tbh .

Firstly and importantly they are coloured , in the accepted sense of the word where transducers are concerned.

There is also a slight but distinct disconnect between the two drivers around the crossover point , which can be ameliorated somewhat with modification work on the crossovers , rolled off at both frequency extremes , not such a biggie perhaps material dependent , slightly compressed on male vocals in the lower register , female upper register , they can also become a tad ‘confused’ with really complex passages of music , the CN 157 Aluminium alloy horn can sound a little ‘glassy’ when pushed , being the reason imho for a slight metalic sheen on Violin , Trumpet Alto Sax , in the higher octaves , a brightness to some leading edges of notes , particularly with higher energy passages on some recordings, together with a tendency for notes to not fully flesh out in the fundamental , and then not decay in an entirely convincing manner , as per the instruments live.

This tendency could be eleviated somewhat by the application of dampening material to the outside rear of the CN 157 horn , however a delicate balance , as too much dampening and the horn lost some of its clarity and vitality, the soundstage as a whole is wide but without any great depth and can sound a tad 2 D .

Most Importantly perhaps *The CN-191 Do Not Present An Audio Signal In An Accurate or Convincing Way To The Source Recording* They present their own version of events.

All that said , stick on a Little Crooner , Rat Pack , Girl and Guitar , Lighter Classical or Big Band ( if not pushed too hard ) a couple of fingers of single malt and they are most enjoyable , however IMHO they are not quite true enough to the recording to be recommended for classical … “

I’m well aware that you used to own a pair of CN-191. I’m also well aware that you did not like them. But as I’ve told you before, you and I never had the same speakers. My version is earlier and you do not have them now, which was the point of my comment.

It’s also clear that we have very different tastes.

 

[tima]

@tima

Tim, I appreciate your thoughtful post. Makes logical sense to me.

Thank you!

 

[tima]

It’s also clear that we have very different tastes.

And amplifiers.

 

[tima]

They are moving in the right direction. My Alexia Vs are 1db more sensitive than the Alexia 2s. It makes for a big difference imho.

understood. I did not want to wait any longer.

Best contemporary speaker under $100k for Lamm ML2.x type amplifiers?

If I owned Lamm ML2 or ML.2.2 amplifiers what's a satisfying full range speaker under $50k and under $100k. (please, no subwoofers). Speaker should be available new with excellent manufacturer support. TIA

www.whatsbestforum.com

Took a while ...

 

[ChasFreeland]

It’s true that while many Americans tend to see themselves as the center of the world, there is significant wealth and opportunity in the Far East and several Middle Eastern countries.

Several years ago, I witnessed a fascinating dinner conversation between a high-end digital audio manufacturer and distributors from the Far East. These distributors, representing a market driven by exclusivity and prestige, insisted that the manufacturer create an even more expensive, top-of-the-line digital audio component to satisfy the demands of their affluent clients. For these clients, an audio system was not just about sound quality—it was a status symbol on par with other luxury items like watches, cars, and art.

Remarkably, about a year later, that very manufacturer introduced a new component to the market. It was priced precisely at the level the distributors had requested, catering to the expectations of a clientele that viewed price and exclusivity as an integral part of the product's appeal.

I live in the "Far East". One of my audio dealers here was showing my photos of some new systems he recently installed. All hugely expensive. One system would have cost as much as an apartment in Paris overlooking the Eiffel Tower. Hi fi is status here, like watches and cars. But because it is all indoors and in private homes, it isn't as desirable as a Ferrari, say, or a Bentley. There was a guy some years ago, wealthy, of course, who owned a multi-storey house with an elevator. Take the elevator to the second floor and there's a full top-of-the-line tube system, Go up another floor, and he has a full SS system, also top top top. And then there was his home theater. And what did he listen to? Test cds that demonstrated the sonic virtues of this orgasm of ostentatious consumerism. At the other end, there's my friend who lives in the provinces, trying to cobble together what he can DIY. But no doubt, there is an increase in per capita wealth here and that trickles up to the hi fi industry.

 

[exupgh12]

I live in the "Far East". One of my audio dealers here was showing my photos of some new systems he recently installed. All hugely expensive. One system would have cost as much as an apartment in Paris overlooking the Eiffel Tower. Hi fi is status here, like watches and cars. But because it is all indoors and in private homes, it isn't as desirable as a Ferrari, say, or a Bentley. There was a guy some years ago, wealthy, of course, who owned a multi-storey house with an elevator. Take the elevator to the second floor and there's a full top-of-the-line tube system, Go up another floor, and he has a full SS system, also top top top. And then there was his home theater. And what did he listen to? Test cds that demonstrated the sonic virtues of this orgasm of ostentatious consumerism. At the other end, there's my friend who lives in the provinces, trying to cobble together what he can DIY. But no doubt, there is an increase in per capita wealth here and that trickles up to the hi fi industry.

People buy expensive items for reasons far beyond simply flaunting wealth. Key motivations include: Superior Quality, Expression of Status, Investment Potential, Emotional Reward, Cultural Norms, Exclusivity, and other reasons.

While showcasing wealth is one factor, the reasons for buying expensive goods are complex, blending personal desires, social influences, and economic considerations.

 

[Argonaut]

And amplifiers.

Thank the Greek Gods !

 

[Gregm]

People buy expensive items for reasons far beyond simply flaunting wealth. Key motivations include: Superior Quality, Expression of Status, Investment Potential, Emotional Reward, Cultural Norms, Exclusivity, and other reasons.

While showcasing wealth is one factor, the reasons for buying expensive goods are complex, blending personal desires, social influences, and economic considerations.

Indeed, but in audio forums (fora) such as this, it is customary to discuss the sound, rather than the bragging, quality of components!

There may be a case for showcasing wealth to oneself (as well as to others): i.e. having the pleasure to look at the expensive system, for example, and see it as a token of personal success or, even, being thankful for having made it so far and having the consumer object to prove it to oneself. Kudos to them!

While I strive to have a system as true to the original as possible within my means, I do realise that other peoples' motivation do not necessarily have to be only sound quality.Take Ferrari owners for example: how many F12 owners purchased the vehicle with its roadfaring capabilities in the forefront of the purchase decision? Can any of these owners actually use its capabilities fully (were it possible to do so...)?

 

[Argonaut]

I’m well aware that you used to own a pair of CN-191. I’m also well aware that you did not like them. But as I’ve told you before, you and I never had the same speakers. My version is earlier and you do not have them now, which was the point of my comment.

It’s also clear that we have very different tastes.

Peter, You invariably trot out the same mix of deflection and misleading information as tho they were facts.

Could you please direct me to any comments that I have actually made that would support your assertion that “you do not like them”
As I have gone to some pain in contextualising any user experience with the CN-191 that I have.

And as I have informed you on previous occasions that in my experience of my own three disparate units together with other units that are owned by friends together with other units that I have been invited to listen to … That I found there to be Zero to vanishingly negligible differences in materials used and component parts deployed between these disparate time frame built units , some manufactured earlier than others.

I would be grateful if you might expand upon any factual information that you might possess that would support your theory that early CN-191 units sound different to later production units other than that imparted to you by the dealer who sold your pair to you ?

For my part I can state that of the three units that I was personally looking after for a while , the seven units that are / were owned by close acquaintances together with the five other units that I spent a little listening time with , that there was no discernible evidence to support your position , particularly as , if i am correct , that you have only ever heard the two units that you now possess ?

 

[exupgh12]

Indeed, but in audio forums (fora) such as this, it is customary to discuss the sound, rather than the bragging, quality of components!

There may be a case for showcasing wealth to oneself (as well as to others): i.e. having the pleasure to look at the expensive system, for example, and see it as a token of personal success or, even, being thankful for having made it so far and having the consumer object to prove it to oneself. Kudos to them!

While I strive to have a system as true to the original as possible within my means, I do realise that other peoples' motivation do not necessarily have to be only sound quality.Take Ferrari owners for example: how many F12 owners purchased the vehicle with its roadfaring capabilities in the forefront of the purchase decision? Can any of these owners actually use its capabilities fully (were it possible to do so...)?

Ultimately, people have their reasons for purchasing expensive items, and one person's justification doesn't have to align with another's. Each motivation is personal and unique, and now one needs to justify what he or she is spending their own hard-earned money.

 

[bonzo75]

Someone could get an equal amount of enjoyment at 1/10 the price? Impossible! They must be newbies or stupid.

Best is to leave price out of the equation and judge by sonics. If you refer to the end price do you understand all the components of the price of each item - cost of components, retail, etc? is a 40k phono from Switzerland > 10k phono from eastern europe if the latter is direct and lower margin to manufacturer? Cost of labour and rent is not the same in Switzerland, UK, US, then Poland, Czech, Lithuania, Bulgaria. Nor is corporate and personal tax (10% in Bulgaria)

So given that most audiophiles do not know these details, and the audio market is not efficient that all information is well spread and known to the actors in the market, best is to judge on sonics. But then on sonics, the user has to ask himself if he has the time to dedicate himself to research in terms of sound assessment, or if he has other goals in life and just wants to buy on the comfort of a review and assume the retail price gives him a security blanket. Either is fine, but if the person is spending loads of time justifying his purchase to random strangers on a forum without doing research and paying 200k for a dac, in order to judge sound via Diana Krall female vocals streamed, then...

If people listen to systems in room and videos online, the sonics and the newbies and noob linears come out loud and clear.

 

[Mr. Miyagi]

Best is to leave price out of the equation and judge by sonics. If you refer to the end price do you understand all the components of the price of each item - cost of components, retail, etc? is a 40k phono from Switzerland > 10k phono from eastern europe if the latter is direct and lower margin to manufacturer? Cost of labour and rent is not the same in Switzerland, UK, US, then Poland, Czech, Lithuania, Bulgaria. Nor is corporate and personal tax (10% in Bulgaria)

So given that most audiophiles do not know these details, and the audio market is not efficient that all information is well spread and known to the actors in the market, best is to judge on sonics. But then on sonics, the user has to ask himself if he has the time to dedicate himself to research in terms of sound assessment, or if he has other goals in life and just wants to buy on the comfort of a review and assume the retail price gives him a security blanket. Either is fine, but if the person is spending loads of time justifying his purchase to random strangers on a forum without doing research and paying 200k for a dac, in order to judge sound via Diana Krall femal vocals streamed, then...

If people listen to systems in room and videos online, the snoics and the newbies and noob linears come out loud and clear.

This is extremely well articulated and completely agree. Also I would add it’s not so easy to learn how to hear , what to look for and to properly understand a process to assess the impacts of all the variables - it takes patience and time. Some go overboard and some want nothing to do with it and want an insta system. For me, I rely on people way more knowledgeable I trust and then use that as a compass or even a map but ultimately my room and ear are my responsibility.

Case in point on price as false security blanket - someone that is extremely technical, knowledgable that has heard thousands of systems over three decades was in a room with a handful of like experts. They unanimously individually (no group think bias) selected a $500 streamer compared to a $25,000 streamer. If you assume that as a fact, it can actually turn people off as some don’t want to believe there can be a disconnect between price and sonic performance. It’s antithetical to our trained mental models and deeply ingrained.

The industry needs more blind tests imho. That would shake things up if rooms did blind A/B.

 

[Charles S]

Ultimately, people have their reasons for purchasing expensive items, and one person's justification doesn't have to align with another's. Each motivation is personal and unique, and now one needs to justify what he or she is spending their own hard-earned money.

I totally agree. I love to listen to music and buy high end gear. It's my hobby. When I was a med student, I took a neurology clerkship in Huntsville Ala. There was a neurologist whose name I won't mention who in between patients and reading EEG's and myograms traded Rolls Royce's. Why? For pure pleasure and satisfaction. It was his hobby. Industry experts and professionals must understand that it's folks like me who trade "Rolls Royce's" who keeps you in business. Don't kill the goose that laid your golden egg. Tim and Lee have affirmed everything I have believed about Wilsons. You just need to find your amp to drive your Wilson, and I have found my amp in the MC3500. With the XVX you get it all including the perfect sound stage height which is very important to me. I asked my good friend at Wilson about 2 years ago how XVX treble compared to the Alexx V in his opinion. His reply was that Alexx V treble was not even in the same ballpark with XVX treble. The XVX is a light year better than any other Wilson speaker and will be for years to come. I wish that I felt comfortable telling you the name of that neurologist, but I am certain that he would understand.

In Music Man at the conclusion, Robert Preston says, "Son, everyone got to have a band." If you are an industry expert, your band may be buying and selling yachts, having nothing to do with my band, i.e. my hobby, which is the high end.

Charles