High End Passion and Craftsmanship For Sure . . . But Also Occasionally High Cost and Unreliable?

[Lee]

Good luck finding a friendly less aggressive and belligerent forum Francisco , this is as good as it gets !

Even when Bonzo is online?

 

[microstrip]

If you are an accountant or going by the strict definition, I didn't save money, I spent money, obviously, but I don't think of it that way. If I can buy exactly the gear I want at wholesale as opposed to retail, I view it that I have saved money. I think that for the foreseeable future if I want to sell my XVX, I could get significantly more than I paid for it. But I will never sell it. If I can buy a speaker cable that has gone to AQ and been re-terminated at both ends to bring it to current specs, 100%, and the wire itself is in perfect condition, I have saved thousands of dollars as opposed to buying a new cable that would cost 20K, IMO. The money that I was going to spend stays in my bank account. I don't plan to ever buy anymore gear. Many high-end buyers are caught climbing the almost never-ending ladder that I described above, and that Lee complained about, and who I agree with. High end manufacturers like Dag and Shunyata must continually put out a product with a revolutionary new better sounding design to stay in business. And there are their clientele of repeat customers, who absolutely must have it. They are absolutely addicted.

My XVX is a smaller version of the WAMM. It's frozen in time with the WAMM. My MC3500's will never be upgraded or changed in any way. They will be in production forever, as long as Mac is a company. I expect the C-12000 to remain in production for a decade. Ditto for the MCD12000. My MC2.1KW will be produced unchanged for 20 years. And I have 100 EL509S output tubes and 45 small tubes for replacements in a safe closet. I have exited from what I call the high-end trap. I have an ageless system. I enjoy reading all the mags, especially the new gear. I enjoy all the comments on this forum. I love the WBF. It's a very friendly forum. There are folks, plenty of them, with far more experience than me, because they are professionals. I very much enjoy listening to what they have to say and making comments as a layperson.

Charles

I understand you.

If it was not for having moved to a new house with a completely different listening room I would say the same for my XLF speakers - these speakers had all I wanted. However my new 9x6m listening room has a tilted ceiling in the speaker zone that excludes speakers taller than 65 inches, they had to go.

The big Soundlab's I am using now are a temporary compromise - they are less critical than box speakers to place, I have them 8 feet away from the front wall.

Fortunately the XVX do not fit my space - having listened to the WAMM for a few days showed me they would be a hard to resist temptation!

 

[DaveC]

I’m not sure that is true. I think Wilson still sells tons of loudspeakers. We have seen the emergence of a new ultra luxury segment in our hobby and an explosion in wealth among wealthy people. Parts costs have increased dramatically which is driving pricing but also the new ultra high end customer segment is creating more demand for flagship models.

I've talked to a high end amp mfg'er who realized having an uber-high end product is a necessity to be taken seriously in some markets. He didn't really want to offer such a product, but not having it lowered the status of his brand and hurt business.

And a speaker mfg'er who didn't have luck selling in a market. After renaming it and re-introducing it to said market for 3x the price, it sold very well.

It seems like a lot of folks think this is a manufacturer-driven phenomenon, but I am pretty sure it is not. It's what the market wants to buy.

I also think it's possible some people assume or imagine all markets have similar values and priorities as they do. There may be overlap in places, but some things may be quite different. Biases can't be overcome by logic alone, for example associating value with price, and feeling good about getting a good deal. For running a business this means you need a flagship product and a marketing approach that fulfills the possibility of buying something at a discount, and what this means is an inflated msrp and sales cycles. At a dealer it means some margin to give away the cable loom or stand for 50% off to close a sale. So nearly every business does this because it will get you the most sales, and it's not trivial, it's worth it to pay for that kind of marketing campaign, which is not cheap.

I share disdain for uber-priced goods if there's not enough substance, but the fact that market exists allows for design of products without having to consider cost whatsoever. This can result in a product that makes less compromises and the investment will result in trickle-down of the tech to normally priced products. So there's some truth, some reason people have a bias for high msrp and prefer mfg'ers who have flagship products. It's why automakers put so much money into racing, for one example. And who doesn't want to save money?

 

[microstrip]

(...) I share disdain for uber-priced goods if there's not enough substance, but the fact that market exists allows for design of products without having to consider cost whatsoever.

You touch the key problem - who defines what is "enough substance" and what does it exactly mean? In a subjective hobby we do not have immutable references and we do not have agreement on this point.

This can result in a product that makes less compromises and the investment will result in trickle-down of the tech to normally priced products. So there's some truth, some reason people have a bias for high msrp and prefer mfg'ers who have flagship products. It's why automakers put so much money into racing, for one example. And who doesn't want to save money?

Why do these people have such bias? Because it is the normal market rule - wisely spent, more money gives you better products. Educating consumers means telling them effectively how to separate the true gems from those having "no substance", not systematically denigrating high priced items. A hard, if not impossible job, considering the conflicting perspectives of audiophiles and the interests of people in the industry.