Good luck finding a friendly less aggressive and belligerent forum Francisco , this is as good as it gets !
Even when Bonzo is online?
High End Passion and Craftsmanship For Sure . . . But Also Occasionally High Cost and Unreliable?
- Thread starter Ron Resnick
- Start date
Even when Bonzo is online?
I understand you.
If it was not for having moved to a new house with a completely different listening room I would say the same for my XLF speakers - these speakers had all I wanted. However my new 9x6m listening room has a tilted ceiling in the speaker zone that excludes speakers taller than 65 inches, they had to go.
The big Soundlab's I am using now are a temporary compromise - they are less critical than box speakers to place, I have them 8 feet away from the front wall.
Fortunately the XVX do not fit my space - having listened to the WAMM for a few days showed me they would be a hard to resist temptation!
I've talked to a high end amp mfg'er who realized having an uber-high end product is a necessity to be taken seriously in some markets. He didn't really want to offer such a product, but not having it lowered the status of his brand and hurt business.
And a speaker mfg'er who didn't have luck selling in a market. After renaming it and re-introducing it to said market for 3x the price, it sold very well.
It seems like a lot of folks think this is a manufacturer-driven phenomenon, but I am pretty sure it is not. It's what the market wants to buy.
I also think it's possible some people assume or imagine all markets have similar values and priorities as they do. There may be overlap in places, but some things may be quite different. Biases can't be overcome by logic alone, for example associating value with price, and feeling good about getting a good deal. For running a business this means you need a flagship product and a marketing approach that fulfills the possibility of buying something at a discount, and what this means is an inflated msrp and sales cycles. At a dealer it means some margin to give away the cable loom or stand for 50% off to close a sale. So nearly every business does this because it will get you the most sales, and it's not trivial, it's worth it to pay for that kind of marketing campaign, which is not cheap.
I share disdain for uber-priced goods if there's not enough substance, but the fact that market exists allows for design of products without having to consider cost whatsoever. This can result in a product that makes less compromises and the investment will result in trickle-down of the tech to normally priced products. So there's some truth, some reason people have a bias for high msrp and prefer mfg'ers who have flagship products. It's why automakers put so much money into racing, for one example. And who doesn't want to save money?
You touch the key problem - who defines what is "enough substance" and what does it exactly mean? In a subjective hobby we do not have immutable references and we do not have agreement on this point.
Why do these people have such bias? Because it is the normal market rule - wisely spent, more money gives you better products. Educating consumers means telling them effectively how to separate the true gems from those having "no substance", not systematically denigrating high priced items. A hard, if not impossible job, considering the conflicting perspectives of audiophiles and the interests of people in the industry.
Given equal "substance", there are a range of choices that might be ideal depending on the sound preferred, and if the customer chooses gear designed with the same priorities as the mfg'er, they'll get the best product for them. So of course all mfg'ers advocate for their own approach to design, and you end up with information overload. I got on facebook recently, comments in audio groups are horrific, worse than you can imagine. I've seen Andrew Jones' ELAC speakers shown in cutaway with hundreds of keyboard warriors ridiculing a design they clearly don't understand. Education comes with experience. I can educate people by describing my priorities in cable design, then sending demo cables so they can experience what the result of that sounds like.
Even art is appraised and given some objective criteria. What to value, what is "substance" in audio gear, also has objective aspects, but a purchase is an emotional decision at the end of the day.
I didn't fact check this, but if Zuck's watch is indeed $900k it proves that having unlimited budget might give you a different perspective on value and substance vs those who do.
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The value can easily be determind - if Zuck says he bought it because it was made of an exotic metal but shows incorrect time, for someone who values time as an essential, the value is Zero and we know his perspective. Translating to audio, where unlike cars and watches we are debating correct time (sonics), if someone bought a speaker for diamond studded gold coffins, an in room demo and videos will give away where it stands sonically. So the value can be determined.
It’s true that while many Americans tend to see themselves as the center of the world, there is significant wealth and opportunity in the Far East and several Middle Eastern countries.
Several years ago, I witnessed a fascinating dinner conversation between a high-end digital audio manufacturer and distributors from the Far East. These distributors, representing a market driven by exclusivity and prestige, insisted that the manufacturer create an even more expensive, top-of-the-line digital audio component to satisfy the demands of their affluent clients. For these clients, an audio system was not just about sound quality—it was a status symbol on par with other luxury items like watches, cars, and art.
Remarkably, about a year later, that very manufacturer introduced a new component to the market. It was priced precisely at the level the distributors had requested, catering to the expectations of a clientele that viewed price and exclusivity as an integral part of the product's appeal.
And that's the problem. With watches and cars, status symbols are more clear, and people clearly buy for status, mileage of a car, budget, racing, and in the case of watches, smart watch functions if they don't want a Rolex type. And they are true to themselves what they bought it for. In audio, status is determined by the small group you hang out with - if you hang out with Wilson Magico folks on forum and read those sub-forums, you will think M9/XVX/WAMM is status, while go to another sub-forum and that will be a joke. Moreover, people here who buy for status and/or WAF do not seem to want to admit it, and no non-audiophile cares, they want to claim they did it for sonics. I have never seen a Ferrari owner claim he did it for mileage or to manage the streets and parking in London.
A the onset, "proprietary" in Hi-End presentations is usually marketing gobblydegook ("let's buy that speaker, it;s the only one with proprietary caps!". The only useful apsect would be that this particular component sounds better -- indeed, if the ceaper component sounded best, it would make sense to use that one.
In this case however, it means that Wilson's production level is high enough to justify the capex for the production equipment; this allows Wilson to rpoduce caps to the exact values and numbers they need, and also allows them to play with different recipes. This flexibility would be near impossible with large cap manufacturers -- and /or very expensive.
As to precision -- large manufacturers (CDE, UNI-chem, etc) have ultra-high precision equipment and can produce components to as tight tolerances as they like... no worries there!
Good point, though in audio is the production level from one brand even as big as Wilson higher than the combined one that Mundorf, Jupiter, etc get? It was said this cap is used only when you move to Alexx V, if I got that correctly. And would flexibility in choosing quality caps across suppliers be higher? Also why don't Wilson do it for drivers then? They even used Focal drivers to a point (which were far from the best) and then went to other outsourcing.
It is to impress the girls and the Vale services
, those cars are not comfortable on the road, or even getting in and out of the car.Sorry, but my dream is still an Auston Martin with Bond gadgets
And that is clear too, whether it works or not is a different question.It is to impress the girls and the Vale services
Sorry, but my dream is still an Auston Martin with Bond gadgets
It is just silly in audo to have another objective apart from sonics, and fitting into home decor if wife demands it, but one can clearly say I liked speaker X, bought Y due to budget/WAF, rather than buy something for perceived status (what, you want to pick up retired audiophiles?) I completely understand Aston Martin or Bentley dreams, not M9 or XVX.
If audiophiles buy something because given their other life priorities they do not have time for research, do not have music, sound, and/or technical knowhow, and want to rely on published reviews and retail price for comfort, please accept that instead of claiming they understand what components go inside it and how it is sonically superior. It is very easy to read into an audiophile's attempt at rationalizing his purchase.
Tom Martin (TAS) speaks on the Sasha V.
88db, 4 Ohms Nominal
Wilson is a very attractive company with the best customer service I've encountered. Some of the very best personnel. You don't need to travel across the country to hear their product. Fit and finish is top notch.
I had 3 different Wilson speakers. Each upgrade offered genuinely better performance. I had very attractive offers directly from Wilson to upgrade to the next generation of the Alexx or Alexia. I would have gone to the Alexx. I went in another direction. Why?
The 'problem' I have with modern Wilsons is their low nominal impedance and their relatively low sensitivity. Earlier Wilsons were easier to drive. I've come to the point of saying 'amp first then speaker' or 'both together'. Wilson rules out too many choices for me.
Speaking for myself, the WAF (Wife Acceptance Factor) has never been an issue for me. My first wife, a professional athlete and DJ, actually introduced me to this fascinating hobby. The evening before our wedding, we were busy shopping for a new stereo and home theater system—despite not yet having a home of our own.
I’ve never faced any friction between my stereo obsession and the women in my life. Not with my first wife, my second wife, or even the women I dated after my second marriage ended. While I know some of my friends have struggled with this, it’s not something I’ve personally experienced.
As for my affinity for Magico speakers, it wasn’t love at first sight, and it hasn’t always been smooth sailing. I wasn’t impressed by the Q series, and my initial experience with the first S series left me underwhelmed. However, when the S MK2 was introduced, my perspective shifted, and my appreciation for the brand grew.
That said, I still admire and respect many other brands. Companies like Tidal, Estelon, TAD, Marten, Zellaton, and even Wilson Audio's current V line can deliver exceptional sound. I also value other manufacturers, such as JMF, Diesis, MBL, Avantgarde, hORNS, and several others, for their unique contributions to the high-end audio world.
Ultimately, my choice of speakers is dictated by my room. It’s not well-suited for horn speakers, but it accommodates many other designs. My preferred genres of music also narrow the options, as does my sensitivity to certain driver materials, which can impact the voicing in ways that bother me. After careful consideration, my shortlist consistently includes TAD, Magico, and Zellaton. All three brands produce outstanding speakers, and I could happily live with offerings from any of them, even though their voicing differs slightly.
Among these three, my decision leans heavily toward Magico for practical reasons. I have strong relationships with distributors for two of these brands, but only one distributor is a vendor I truly know well. Conveniently, this vendor lives in my neighborhood, and we communicate frequently, not just for audio matters. Considering all these factors, choosing Magico feels like the natural and easy choice for me.
How much research did you put into choosing your cooking tools before you purchased them? How much thought did you give to the clothes you’re wearing right now? Do you know the real cost behind a £30,000 suit or the story behind different brands of jeans? And yet, I’d bet you bought them without much hesitation.
A lot of the decisions we make in life aren’t fully rationalized. The real question isn’t the exact percentage of irrational decisions you make—it’s about understanding their impact on your life.
Take the common yet dangerous example of texting while driving. Let’s say you do it only 3% of the time—roughly once every 30 trips. That seems insignificant, right? But each time you engage in this irrational act, you significantly increase the risk of a fatal accident—both for yourself and for others. This is a powerful example of how seemingly small irrational behaviors can carry life-and-death consequences.
Rather than trying to quantify how much of our behavior is irrational, it’s far more important to evaluate each decision and action on its own. Ask yourself: How good is this for me? What is its potential impact?
By thinking this way, we can make better choices and avoid the pitfalls of careless decisions, no matter how small they might seem.
I have never tried to rationalize my decisions on what cooking tools I bought nor say that the suit I bought is the best available, or the best value available. I personally had a clear goal of buying clothes for dating and for interviews only. If any of my dates gave me constructive feedback on my clothes, I would take her out for shopping. That's how I improved my dressing sense from college grad onwards, it improved with every relationship until I found my dream woman almost 20 years later, and since then my non-work clothes have gone back to college grad days. Pajamas in fact, she complains sometimes on our first date I was like a flashy Munich hifi system but am not dressing the same way at home.
I definitely used my Aston Martin 50 times as much as my Lamborghini ! The valet at my building fought for the keys when it occasionally was the Lamborghini hitting the streets.It is to impress the girls and the Vale services
Sorry, but my dream is still an Auston Martin with Bond gadgets
They are moving in the right direction. My Alexia Vs are 1db more sensitive than the Alexia 2s. It makes for a big difference imho.
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