High End Passion and Craftsmanship For Sure . . . But Also Occasionally High Cost and Unreliable?

[microstrip]

Microstrip, looks like Tim provided your answer as the AudioCapX says they are better on an ESR basis, or Equivalent Series resistance.

*******
Our newly named AudioCapX line capacitors (formerly known as MultiCap™ developed by Richard Marsh) are uniquely and produced on proprietary machines which are exclusively owned and operated by Reliable Capacitors. This multiple section design significantly reduces typical capacitors losses and overall inductance, setting an industry standard. Measured Equivalent Series Resistance (ESR) values are 5 to 10 times lower than conventional capacitors. This exclusive design also solves the problems of multiple resonances encountered when a circuit’s high-frequency impedance is lowered by externally paralleling a large, conventionally wound capacitor with smaller ones, as in typical bypass designs. AudioCapX capacitors are ideal for high-current, high-speed, pulsed applications. New and exciting innovations are continuing to be developed that will meet the most exacting audio and video specifications. Capacitors in this line are available in:

• metalized polypropylene (PPMFX)
• polystyrene (RTX)
• polypropylene and tin (PPFXS)
• polypropylene and aluminum (PPFX)

Lee,

The claim is ambiguous enough to be probably true, as most technical claims in high end argumentation. Ambiguity and semantics solves it all ... ESR is a curve depending on frequency, we do not know exactly what is being addressed, and comparison is carried with "conventional capacitors" - not with the state of art designs of other manufacturers. The resonance problem referred in the bypass comment exists, but not in the audio band or near its limits. Please read the WA intelligent and prudent remark about "ideal for audio and VIDEO specifications" (my capitalization).

I call such devices as "tuned devices". I have listened to the current Wilson speakers and enjoyed their fabulous performance, I am happy to know they use these new capacitors but can't say how the capacitors affected their sound.

In my perspective, these words, unless documented with extra detail and real technical numbers, just confirms my original post. Please note that I do not condemn such behaviour - it is needed to keep the high-end industry alive! BTW, the reason why it is needed needs a separate thread and time.

 

[Robh3606]

These are film caps no? Not electrolytic so why the concern about ESR? Should be insignificant.

Rob

 

[microstrip]

These are film caps no? Not electrolytic so why the concern about ESR? Should be insignificant.

Rob

Rob,

Nothing is insignificant in this business. ESR is closely related with energy absorption, that implies signal distortion. In an hobby where people claim to ear everything without known established thresholds , it is hard to use such argument.

 

[Robh3606]

Good point.

An interesting short read from Solen normal vs Fast Cap. Address's D/F and ESR. At audio frequencies? No actual data on the spec sheet just just extremely low. Sounds like a non issue to me but as you say point taken.



Rob

 

[bonzo75]

Don’t blame me for you being too stupid to understand a coopetition idea.

Like I said here, you have already called people asshole, douchebag, small person. Now stupid. I guess mods don’t ban someone who has as much influence with TAS and big name brands like you do

Post in thread 'The point of diminishing returns for speakers is...?'
https://www.whatsbestforum.com/thre...ing-returns-for-speakers-is.37537/post-913954

 

[XV-1]

One thing we Wilson owners are familiar with and excited about are the new capacitors they are producing on the Rel-Cap approach and the newer Swiss machines they have. I believe they have contributed to the huge increase in sound following the move from Alexia 2 to Alexia V speakers.

One thing we Wilson owners, not getting accommodation pricing get really peeved about is the insane non commercially justified price increases.
More than a few fellow Wilson owners are virtually saying fccuk u Wilson, I cannot and will not justify the crazy price increases and either don't upgrade of buy something else.

Tech like TV'S and computers get cheaper, while the performance gets better and better.

Then we have privileged biased so called reviewers that have the absurdity to blow the collective " law of diminishing returns" doesn’t exist and in fact the overpriced exxy speakers are in fact bargins. Not sure how you sleep straight in bed.

This absurd pricing in the high end is a self proclaiming race to bankruptcy - ever increasing prices to rip off an ever decreasing customer base. Plenty of recent examples of this.

 

[Charles S]

One thing we Wilson owners, not getting accommodation pricing get really peeved about is the insane non commercially justified price increases.
More than a few fellow Wilson owners are virtually saying fccuk u Wilson, I cannot and will not justify the crazy price increases and either don't upgrade of buy something else.

Tech like TV'S and computers get cheaper, while the performance gets better and better.

Then we have privileged biased so called reviewers that have the absurdity to blow the collective " law of diminishing returns" doesn’t exist and in fact the overpriced exxy speakers are in fact bargins. Not sure how you sleep straight in bed.

This absurd pricing in the high end is a self proclaiming race to bankruptcy - ever increasing prices to rip off an ever decreasing customer base. Plenty of recent examples of this.

I agree with most of what you have said. About 5 years ago I bought an XVX. I was absolutely ridiculed because I said it was an extremely cost effective investment. But because I was one of the very first, and the first in the southeast to buy one, I got a ridiculously good price on it. Now it retails for 370K and that's just for stock color like Galaxy Grey, which I love BTW. I only paid 27K for a custom made Thor that IMO is the best of the Wilson big subs. Unless I could bank the difference I wouldn't trade it for two Subsonics (now 45K up from 37K a piece). The McIntosh C-1000 preamp was a 3 box 26K piece in 2005. I bought a C-12000 An, a MCD12000 An, and a MC2.1KW An recently. Again, I was the very first of folks in my neighborhood to buy them and my dealer begged me, called me, enticed me to buy the gear. I don't even know exactly how much money I saved off the retail but it was a lot. It's gorgeous gear and very versatile. For example, compare the price of the C-12000 to the C-1000, 16K to 26K. Because I owned both of them, I can attest to the fact that the C-12000 is a much better preamp with a price reduction of 10K. I paid 18K for the solid state version in 2005, Nicholson's Stereo, Nashville TN.

What about my XVX? While Wilson comes out with speaker after speaker, each of which comes with a hefty price increase, I sit back and know that 10 years from now my XVX will sound much better than any of them except the new XVX, whatever it might be. I will never purchase another speaker or feel the need to purchase another speaker or sub woofer. The high end can be extremely frustrating, because you know that the 50K piece of gear you recently purchased will soon be replaced by a 65K piece, etc. Witness the new Dag C2 preamp. Absolutely revolutionary is the claim, so much better than its predecessor, you Dag folks absolutely must go out and buy one, and the play goes on and on and on and on.......until you finally quit, go insane, run out of money, get divorced, or maybe you have so much money it doesn't matter.

Charles

 

[mtemur]

I don't even know exactly how much money I saved off the retail but it was a lot.

Unfortunately, you haven’t saved any money. Nobody buying high-end audio equipment is saving—only spending. If you think otherwise, try selling your speakers and amps to see for yourself. Alternatively, wait a few years and try to sell them when new models are released.

It doesn’t matter how much lower the offer is compared to the retail. There is always a similar or better offer because actually retail is at least ten times the manufacturing cost.

 

[arthurs]

Many companies you can’t open the crossover so you can’t see what it is in. you will have full transparency with a small manufacturer

I’ve found said transparency with many small manufacturers but not all. Reluctance to share or cagey answers from small manufacturers can be a red flag for trouble ahead. I acknowledge there are exceptions to this but the worst experience I’ve had in audio by far included reluctance to discuss even simple component questions.

 

[bonzo75]

I’ve found said transparency with many small manufacturers but not all. Reluctance to share or cagey answers from small manufacturers can be a red flag for trouble ahead. I acknowledge there are exceptions to this but the worst experience I’ve had in audio by far included reluctance to discuss even simple component questions.

Nothing is all, obviously.

 

[Lee]

Unfortunately, you haven’t saved any money. Nobody buying high-end audio equipment is saving—only spending. If you think otherwise, try selling your speakers and amps to see for yourself. Alternatively, wait a few years and try to sell them when new models are released.

It doesn’t matter how much lower the offer is compared to the retail. There is always a similar or better offer because actually retail is at least ten times the manufacturing cost.

According to manufacturers I speak with, most loudspeakers are 5-7 times bill of materials which is labor and parts. That a reasonable multiple for the industry. Most manufacturers have told me that they saw many parts prices, particularly machined metal, go up 3-4X.

On top of this, you have overhead like warranty, running the factory, marketing, administration, etc.

The prices are certainly high but I am not sure they are out of line with the total cost to manufacture the item.

The consumer has to decide if it is worth and whether it fits their budget.

 

[andromedaaudio]

Unfortunately, you haven’t saved any money. Nobody buying high-end audio equipment is saving—only spending. If you think otherwise, try selling your speakers and amps to see for yourself. Alternatively, wait a few years and try to sell them when new models are released.

It doesn’t matter how much lower the offer is compared to the retail. There is always a similar or better offer because actually retail is at least ten times the manufacturing cost.

May be for cables yes
But for LS i dont think so.

( Certainly not in my case )

 

[microstrip]

Good point.

An interesting short read from Solen normal vs Fast Cap. Address's D/F and ESR. At audio frequencies? No actual data on the spec sheet just just extremely low. Sounds like a non issue to me but as you say point taken.



Rob

We have too many things that sound different and we do not have explanations. In a friendly, less aggressive and belligerent forum we could speculate on it, not here. Everything we say will soon be distorted and used as a weapon in personal vendettas.

 

[Lagonda]

We have too many things that sound different and we do not have explanations. In a friendly, less aggressive and belligerent forum we could speculate on it, not here. Everything we say will soon be distorted and used as a weapon in personal vendettas.

Good luck finding a friendly less aggressive and belligerent forum Francisco , this is as good as it gets !

 

[PeterA]

Good luck finding a friendly less aggressive and belligerent forum Francisco , this is as good as it gets !

I don’t know any forums beside WBF where people so willingly share videos of their systems.

 

[Lagonda]

I don’t know any forums beside WBF where people so willingly share videos of their systems.

He is probably asking questions and lecturing more than one place ! F. Toole would be proud ! And teasing each other are not vendettas ,it is how we show love and respect on WBF !

 

[Charles S]

Unfortunately, you haven’t saved any money. Nobody buying high-end audio equipment is saving—only spending. If you think otherwise, try selling your speakers and amps to see for yourself. Alternatively, wait a few years and try to sell them when new models are released.

It doesn’t matter how much lower the offer is compared to the retail. There is always a similar or better offer because actually retail is at least ten times the manufacturing cost.

If you are an accountant or going by the strict definition, I didn't save money, I spent money, obviously, but I don't think of it that way. If I can buy exactly the gear I want at wholesale as opposed to retail, I view it that I have saved money. I think that for the foreseeable future if I want to sell my XVX, I could get significantly more than I paid for it. But I will never sell it. If I can buy a speaker cable that has gone to AQ and been re-terminated at both ends to bring it to current specs, 100%, and the wire itself is in perfect condition, I have saved thousands of dollars as opposed to buying a new cable that would cost 20K, IMO. The money that I was going to spend stays in my bank account. I don't plan to ever buy anymore gear. Many high-end buyers are caught climbing the almost never-ending ladder that I described above, and that Lee complained about, and who I agree with. High end manufacturers like Dag and Shunyata must continually put out a product with a revolutionary new better sounding design to stay in business. And there are their clientele of repeat customers, who absolutely must have it. They are absolutely addicted.

My XVX is a smaller version of the WAMM. It's frozen in time with the WAMM. My MC3500's will never be upgraded or changed in any way. They will be in production forever, as long as Mac is a company. I expect the C-12000 to remain in production for a decade. Ditto for the MCD12000. My MC2.1KW will be produced unchanged for 20 years. And I have 100 EL509S output tubes and 45 small tubes for replacements in a safe closet. I have exited from what I call the high-end trap. I have an ageless system. I enjoy reading all the mags, especially the new gear. I enjoy all the comments on this forum. I love the WBF. It's a very friendly forum. There are folks, plenty of them, with far more experience than me, because they are professionals. I very much enjoy listening to what they have to say and making comments as a layperson.

Charles

 

[XV-1]

I agree with most of what you have said. About 5 years ago I bought an XVX. I was absolutely ridiculed because I said it was an extremely cost effective investment. But because I was one of the very first, and the first in the southeast to buy one, I got a ridiculously good price on it. Now it retails for 370K and that's just for stock color like Galaxy Grey, which I love BTW. I only paid 27K for a custom made Thor that IMO is the best of the Wilson big subs. Unless I could bank the difference I wouldn't trade it for two Subsonics (now 45K up from 37K a piece). The McIntosh C-1000 preamp was a 3 box 26K piece in 2005. I bought a C-12000 An, a MCD12000 An, and a MC2.1KW An recently. Again, I was the very first of folks in my neighborhood to buy them and my dealer begged me, called me, enticed me to buy the gear. I don't even know exactly how much money I saved off the retail but it was a lot. It's gorgeous gear and very versatile. For example, compare the price of the C-12000 to the C-1000, 16K to 26K. Because I owned both of them, I can attest to the fact that the C-12000 is a much better preamp with a price reduction of 10K. I paid 18K for the solid state version in 2005, Nicholson's Stereo, Nashville TN.

What about my XVX? While Wilson comes out with speaker after speaker, each of which comes with a hefty price increase, I sit back and know that 10 years from now my XVX will sound much better than any of them except the new XVX, whatever it might be. I will never purchase another speaker or feel the need to purchase another speaker or sub woofer. The high end can be extremely frustrating, because you know that the 50K piece of gear you recently purchased will soon be replaced by a 65K piece, etc. Witness the new Dag C2 preamp. Absolutely revolutionary is the claim, so much better than its predecessor, you Dag folks absolutely must go out and buy one, and the play goes on and on and on and on.......until you finally quit, go insane, run out of money, get divorced, or maybe you have so much money it doesn't matter.

Charles

Charles I hear you. High end audio has turned into ever increasing prices to ever decreasing sales. I guarantee Wilson sold more speakers in the 80's / 90's than they do now.

I upgraded my Dag S200 to the S250 a few years back, just to see the MXV version. A lot more exxy and living in AU, getting killed by exchange rate if I want to do the upgrade or trade up.
At least Dag offer upgrades to their Momentum stuff, although interestingly not the new C2 pre.

I bought a couple of JL Audio F112 and tbh, that provided me a bigger upgrade of what I was looking for in bass depth and dynamics than upgrading the amp - and cheaper

 

[Lee]

 

[Lee]

Charles I hear you. High end audio has turned into ever increasing prices to ever decreasing sales. I guarantee Wilson sold more speakers in the 80's / 90's than they do now.

I’m not sure that is true. I think Wilson still sells tons of loudspeakers. We have seen the emergence of a new ultra luxury segment in our hobby and an explosion in wealth among wealthy people. Parts costs have increased dramatically which is driving pricing but also the new ultra high end customer segment is creating more demand for flagship models.