High End Passion and Craftsmanship For Sure . . . But Also Occasionally High Cost and Unreliable?

[Lagonda]

High-end home audio seems a lot like high-end automobiles to me. There are vehicles for the masses, and vehicles for the passionate. Similarly, there are audio components for the masses, and others for the passionate.
I've owned Lotus, BMW, Porsche, and Aston Martin, among many others. Lotus was a "mad scientist" company that absolutely advanced the state of the art and pioneered innovations that trickled down to typical daily drivers, and many other high-end car companies also did so.
On the subject of literal "garage industries," Aston Martin is a classic example of a company that was driven by irrational passion, illogical processes, irresponsible management, and unsustainable costs. This resulted in the company going bankrupt several times, and vehicle purchase prices that make most people roll their eyes. The owners of the company and the owners of the cars share the pains of this approach, but many are willing to pay them. I know my Aston Martin DB9 extremely well, performing both its routine maintenance and extraordinary repairs myself, and doing so has brought me closer to those who first dreamt then designed and finally hand-built the car. I cannot work on the car without (and I know this sounds silly) feeling the presence of those who made it happen. And when I drive it (about 4,000 miles a year), I am just so happy. It is not transportation...it is transport.
The closest car I had to it on paper was my Porsche 928 S4, at about one-fourth the cost, and from a profitable company. I liked that car a lot, but it didn't touch my soul the way my Aston does.
I suspect that many high-end audio companies are similar. Someone has a dream, and in dreams we can sometimes fly. But when we wake up, the compromises required to compete in a commercial mass-market world often seem too painful, and the refusal to make those compromises often results in extreme prices and low financial sustainability.

Once i needed a relay changed on my handbuilt Aston Martin, the dealership in Palm Beach called the factory in England and asked the guy that had built most of the car where he had placed it. The engine has a "gold"plaque with the name of the guy that assembled it !

 

[Lagonda]

High End Passion and Craftsmanship For Sure . . . But Also Occasionally High Cost and Unreliable?



It is another set of manufactured hypothetical questions.

Yes, the impact on me as a consumer is also interesting, experienced with brands like Krell and Aesthetix have shown me what can happen when esoteric designs are sent into the marketplace and the customer becomes the long time tester, insufficient stock of spare party can really mess you up too. I worry little about the state of a prototype received by a reviewer.

 

[Lagonda]

The amplifier i had the most problems with was from a Large audiocompany .
My Boutique audio amplifier/ Small company i have currently never broke down over a 14 year lifespan .

So the reasoning that one could have more problems with relatively small audiocompanies as compared to large scale companies is wrong

In one case maybe

 

[tima]

Yes, the impact on me as a consumer is also interesting, experienced with brands like Krell and Aesthetix have shown me what can happen when esoteric designs are sent into the marketplace and the customer becomes the long time tester, insufficient stock of spare party can really mess you up too. I worry little about the state of a prototype received by a reviewer.

Understood. Typically reviews are not given to true prototypes. I gather you are saying that gnarley production components can make it feel like they are prototypes.

 

[Lagonda]

If you could, then you would.

The important thing is not building a €100,000 turntable but achieving €100,000 worth of sound from it. If there is demand for more expensive products, companies will certainly manufacture and sell them. This is not about the collapse of hi-fi; there have always been budget products, and there always will be.

Manufacturers that can only operate at the budget level always complain about the ridiculously priced upper-echelon gear. They’re right—high-end gear is indeed ridiculously priced. But this isn’t because budget manufacturers are being reasonable or caring about us, the consumers. It simply means they’re complaining about not being able to earn the kind of profits that upper-echelon companies do. If someone is willing to pay €100,000 for your €6,000 turntable, those complaints will quickly be replaced with statements like “how expensive the parts are” and “how much time it takes to manufacture,” and so on.

Yes, just look at Lampizator they sure changed their tune once they where able to sell ridiculously priced products to doctors and other affluent customers, a consumer group they had previously joked about.

 

[Geardaddy]

The industry of high-end audio chronicles designers' passion for emotionally-engaging sound, the pursuit of engineering perfection and the love of music. We are an unusual industry, comprised of a few relatively large companies, and many small companies. Many high-end audio manufacturers start as one person efforts, literally in their garages.

Putting to one side the Veblen good phenomenon a lot of components in the industry are expensive. Are they expensive because they use expensive parts? Often this is certainly the case and provably so. Are finished audio components expensive sometimes because extremely small production volume requires manufacturers to pay a lot for the component parts with little to no economies of scale?

Most of us audiophiles love the concept of a passionate "mad" scientist being driven by his love of extraordinarily reproduced music to invent exotic designs and audio components which advance the state of the audio arts. I know I love this idea.

But with small startups which are inadequately funded does this also inevitably mean inadequate testing of components before they are sent to reviewers for review in the hope that a positive review will jump-start the designer's entire business? Are there cases where small manufacturers send to reviewers components which are barely past the prototype stage? If the review is positive might the designer suddenly be faced with a relative avalanche of orders which he/she is not in a parts position or in a labor position to satisfy in a timely manner while also maintaining the highest production standards of sample-to-sample consistency and quality?

These are very difficult questions, I fully appreciate. I hope it's obvious to everybody that I completely love this hobby and this industry. But our love for this niche industry shouldn't mean that we, as consumers, should be hesitant or afraid to ask and to discuss these kinds of questions.

What do you think about these questions?

Ron, what prompted this meditation?

 

[Lee]

Ok, so Magico is publishing - so they are indeed using Mundorf - interesting that for so much money you only get Mundorf. Why do you think this is not skimping, or better than Audyn, Jupiter, Duelund, and some vintage caps? Apart from not costing more than Duelund.

I have no idea about Lorenzo and Gabriel, not companies I have looked at. I did not say 100% small manufacturer population will all be good - like everything in audio good things are 5%, 95% is to be filtered through.

To my original point - while Magico is publishing crossovers, I doubt most of the users of Wilson, Focal, etc or amps liek Dagostino, Gryphon, and others know what the components going into their equipment

One thing we Wilson owners are familiar with and excited about are the new capacitors they are producing on the Rel-Cap approach and the newer Swiss machines they have. I believe they have contributed to the huge increase in sound following the move from Alexia 2 to Alexia V speakers.

 

[Geardaddy]

As I have written in this forum in the past (in a thread about switches, of all places…), a higher degree of sophistication is required today to manufacture anything meaningful and thus the old cottage industry ethos is difficult to be reproduced in modern products without sacrificing absolute quality or resorting to unethical (in my opinion) practices. The example I had used in that thread, a donor board from Cisco or such inside a nice expensive looking box, masquerading as a high-end switch, is befitting I believe...​

That is very aptly put. We are at an inflection point. The messianic garage mystics are running out of geriatric patrons to hoodwink. Whatever the goals of this thread are, ethics are foundational in any industry, and I have had the displeasure of tangoing with multiple sociopaths in "high end" audio.

 

[bonzo75]

One thing we Wilson owners are familiar with and excited about are the new capacitors they are producing on the Rel-Cap approach and the newer Swiss machines they have. I believe they have contributed to the huge increase in sound following the move from Alexia 2 to Alexia V speakers.

So these are caps Wilson are producing? And available Alexia V upwards?

 

[Lee]

So these are caps Wilson are producing? And available Alexia V upwards?

Yes, I have photos of the original machines that were running on the factory tour Fremer and I had two years ago.

https://twitter.com/x/status/1786345761384657376

 

[Lee]

That is very aptly put. We are at an inflection point. The messianic garage mystics are running out of geriatric patrons to hoodwink. Whatever the goals of this thread are, ethics are foundational in any industry, and I have had the displeasure of tangoing with multiple sociopaths in "high end" audio.

Can you share a link to the thread? Thanks.

 

[Lee]

Wilson Audio | Authentic Excellence

 

[andromedaaudio]

Ron, what prompted this meditation?

Ron tries to atract more visitors to WBF .
More traffic .
This thread is coming somewhat out of left fiield but it seems to be working


I do miss the cable / filter threads with DDK .

 

[bonzo75]

Yes, I have photos of the original machines that were running on the factory tour Fremer and I had two years ago.

https://twitter.com/x/status/1786345761384657376

Why is proprietary great and not a cost strategy only? What control does the end user have to understand the sonics of “proprietary “

 

[Lee]

Why is proprietary great and not a cost strategy only? What control does the end user have to understand the sonics of “proprietary “

It's no different than any other industry. There are trade secrets that only that company knows and they won't reveal for obvious competitive reasons.

 

[bonzo75]

It's no different than any other industry. There are trade secrets that only that company knows and they won't reveal for obvious competitive reasons.

Yes and audiophiles have to pay up for that and assume they get quality components. Thanks for confirming the point

 

[Lee]

Yes and audiophiles have to pay up for that and assume they get quality components. Thanks for confirming the point

Other audio manufacturers are still buying caps from Wilson so they must be doing something right. There may be some performance stats on the caps but I don't have that.

 

[infinitely baffled]

Ron tries to atract more visitors to WBF .
More traffic .
This thread is coming somewhat out of left fiield but it seems to be working


I do miss the cable / filter threads with DDK .

Yes what we're truly missing is more dogmatic dismissal of the evidence of our own ears.

 

[treitz3]

Yes and audiophiles have to pay up for that and assume they get quality components. Thanks for confirming the point

What point?

Tom

 

[bonzo75]

What point?

Tom

Please read my posts on the thread it is quite clear