High End Passion and Craftsmanship For Sure . . . But Also Occasionally High Cost and Unreliable?

[exupgh12]

Smaller manufacturers with bad reps are much less. Mostly because they just don't have the numbers. Their can be general distrust by those used to big manufacturers, that's all.

You might be mistaken. For example, during COVID, car manufacturers purchased a significant amount of DSPs, electric cables, and other components commonly used in audio production. Additionally, many suppliers faced production challenges of their own.

Consider the difficulty of sourcing titanium during a conflict involving the world’s largest titanium-producing countries. Or think about the challenges a manufacturer faces when one of their suppliers shuts down entirely.

Events like these have contributed to the delays in audio manufacturing that we experienced during the pandemic and, in some cases, continue to experience today.

This is total theory on your part, in reality it might not be this way. I can easily counter this with a small manufacturer can service a handful of customers he has sold directly to much more easily than they big manufacturer relying on a supply chain (which in hifi is never stable, dealers and distributors change quite a bit).

Maybe, do you want to tell this to dartzeel customers ?

Also, a small manufacturer making SETs type amps has point to point wiring so his products can easily be serviced as compared to big manufacturers who use PCBs or something proprietary. Small manufacturers who use established drivers (whether vintage like Altec or current like Scanspeak) can replace drivers much more easily than coffin box companies who ise so-called "proprietary innovations".

But does this small manufacturer only produce SET amplifiers? Perhaps they also manufacture DACs pre amplifiers or speakers, as many audio manufacturers do.

As you may know, most electrical braids were produced in Ukraine. When war broke out between Russia and Ukraine, the global supply of electrical braids was severely disrupted. This seemingly simple component caused significant setbacks, not just for the audio industry but also for many larger companies across various sectors.

 

[PeterA]

Its not worth it for them peter.
Imagine Panasonic can sell 300 million products a year priced at 500 dollars with a 10 % profit margin .
Thats 15 Billion USD.
These companies are run by shareholders who are in it for profit

Top SQ audioproducts are made by connoisseurs

That is a different topic.

 

[bonzo75]

You might be mistaken. For example, during COVID, car manufacturers purchased a significant amount of DSPs, electric cables, and other components commonly used in audio production. Additionally, many suppliers faced production challenges of their own.

Sorry - throughout i was referring to audio manufacturers only. Car scales are quite different in small and large

Maybe, do you want to tell this to dartzeel customers ?

I consider Dartzeel a well established brand with a global distribution chain. In UK they have Ricardo, possibly the most powerful global audio distributor. Small manufacturers are not just number of people but they are more bespoke, much lower units than Dartzeel, and usually no chain, so you buy direct

But does this small manufacturer only produce SET amplifiers? Perhaps they also manufacture DACs pre amplifiers or speakers, as many audio manufacturers do.

A small manufacturer will usually not have the financial strength to manufacture everything. The point to point wiring principle I mentioned applies to amps, preamps, dacs.

 

[Tandem]

Considering the AMS retip issue post as an example, yes the industry is following WBF as well as many others must do in order to monitor the need of the clients and to be sure to have a good image, so they should actually monitor more than just WBF.

As for the expense, that's also because of the knowledge and development time spent, with trials and errors and I feel that over the decades, companies needs to have more funds of themselves since market is getting tighter for everything but that would be considering all companies reacting the same way. Some put the price tag considering their own cost, some considering at which level of quality others people put their price tag. Expense can come from the parts but a big part of the expense also comes from the personal involved : good workers in this industry are quite expensive in order to develop good products and assemble them well. A company is down mostly to its management and personal.

Regarding the mad scientist, that's because we hope for somebody who knows his craft, comes with groundbreaking ideas or uncommon at least to offer a bit of his knowledge, in advance to what the mass consumer will offer at a decent price, ie without all the investors increasing the price tag. That's also because it existed for a long time in this domain and in some others and hope it'll still exist. Though, I feel like they usually tend to be very quiet unless they can actually follow the rythm asked, therefore, they work on orders only with a waiting list as despite being loving what they do, they're still quite rationnable.

Those who can't do that would be more of a startup going from a hype in my humble opinion. It takes a lot of thinking to design those apparels and make it neat. I think it's more likely the local shops that might end up with a lot of prototype to test than the reviewers. As for the gearing, with a lot of stuff nowadays able in second hand, it's easier than before to start with better testing units. Also, people wants reliability nowadays and care more for safe future investment than they did before.

The main issue with those startup is to identify who's really doing what and bringing which level of refinement, that's usually when this or those workers are leaving that problems tend to happen since the company started from them. Some try to hide it and find replacement calling it a bit like more of their own but that doesn't always work.

 

[Lee]

There was a prominent amplifier company that sold a few years ago six figure amplifiers and they kept failing bad. Often, even the fix failed. It was explained to me that the parts quality had variations that they had not accounted for. They redesigned the circuit and now it is stable.

 

[exupgh12]

Sorry - throughout i was referring to audio manufacturers only. Car scales are quite different in small and large

Large audio manufacturers include companies like Sony, Denon Marantz, and Pioneer.

In the high-end audio market, prominent brands include Bowers & Wilkins (B&W), Clearaudio, Focal, Wilson Audio, KEF, MBL, Avantgarde, and possibly Magico. These companies operate on a much smaller scale compared to mainstream manufacturers.

Now, consider boutique audio brands such as Pilium, DeVore Fidelity, Ypsilon, Jadis, darTZeel, and CH Precision. How many employees do you think they have? Most of these manufacturers operate with no more than 10 to 20 employees, making them small-scale operations. This limited size is precisely what makes this industry so vulnerable to global supply chain disruptions.

I consider Dartzeel a well established brand with a global distribution chain. In UK they have Ricardo, possibly the most powerful global audio distributor. Small manufacturers are not just number of people but they are more bespoke, much lower units than Dartzeel, and usually no chain, so you buy direct

Certainly, but now that they are reportedly facing financial difficulties—an amount that wouldn’t trouble even a modest restaurant—let’s see what kind of support and value they can offer their customers.

Consider how difficult it is to obtain support for exotic products from brands like Thiel, Apogee, Fulton, VMPS, Mark Levinson, and many others that are no longer available on the market. Single-ended triode (SET) amplifiers are far from the only products in this category, highlighting the broader challenges of supporting niche audio equipment.

A small manufacturer will usually not have the financial strength to manufacture everything. The point to point wiring principle I mentioned applies to amps, preamps, dacs.

Would you consider companies like Aries Cerat, PS Audio, Burson Audio, Aqua Acoustic, Mola Mola, Cary Audio, Thrax, Block, or Audio Hungary to be “big” businesses? Most of these companies operate with fewer than 20 employees. They are small businesses with virtually no leverage over the supply chain manufacturers they rely on for parts.

 

[bonzo75]

Large audio manufacturers include companies like Sony, Denon Marantz, and Pioneer.

In the high-end audio market, prominent brands include Bowers & Wilkins (B&W), Clearaudio, Focal, Wilson Audio, KEF, MBL, Avantgarde, and possibly Magico. These companies operate on a much smaller scale compared to mainstream manufacturers.

Now, consider boutique audio brands such as Pilium, DeVore Fidelity, Ypsilon, Jadis, darTZeel, and CH Precision. How many employees do you think they have? Most of these manufacturers operate with no more than 10 to 20 employees, making them small-scale operations. This limited size is precisely what makes this industry so vulnerable to global supply chain disruptions.



Certainly, but now that they are reportedly facing financial difficulties—an amount that wouldn’t trouble even a modest restaurant—let’s see what kind of support and value they can offer their customers.

Consider how difficult it is to obtain support for exotic products from brands like Thiel, Apogee, Fulton, VMPS, Mark Levinson, and many others that are no longer available on the market. Single-ended triode (SET) amplifiers are far from the only products in this category, highlighting the broader challenges of supporting niche audio equipment.


Would you consider companies like Aries Cerat, PS Audio, Burson Audio, Aqua Acoustic, Mola Mola, Cary Audio, Thrax, Block, or Audio Hungary to be “big” businesses? Most of these companies operate with fewer than 20 employees. They are small businesses with virtually no leverage over the supply chain manufacturers they rely on for parts.

I think we have a disconnect on what we consider small. While no doubt most of the brands you mentioned are not as big as Sony or Pioneer (SME is also a big company), I don't consider them small manufacturers. They might be one person in the design team, but they have much more financing, a global distribution backing, the wherewithal to move components globally to display at shows like Munich and others, send spare pieces to reviewers, and all these costs get baked into their margin which can be 10 times component cost. They might not have direct employees, but are part of a larger chain.

There are much smaller manufacturers in audio - a one or two person team that sells directly, makes bespoke and a very small limited quanitity, provides service to a very small set of users, no formal reviews and no big distribution channel. You go to his place, check it out, order directly, low margins. In my mind these are small manufacturers. If one of them were to join Audio Exotics, I would argue he is part of a bigger chain, because now is not just serving himself, but also AE. That is serious financial backing and margins have to be adjusted accordingly to feed the chain.

 

[Tandem]

That's why our scope is too wide and it complicates any correct analysis.

And even amongst some big companies, there are teams working as small companies or that have ties to them and call them to make products designed only for very high end or luxury.

Lot of the current small companies were actually extra workers or oem, called for special range of products, which is were they could get even more experience, and now ask bigger fees to compensate the supply line but also to get an added value on their experience.

 

[exupgh12]

I think we have a disconnect on what we consider small. While no doubt most of the brands you mentioned are not as big as Sony or Pioneer (SME is also a big company), I don't consider them small manufacturers. They might be one person in the design team, but they have much more financing, a global distribution backing, the wherewithal to move components globally to display at shows like Munich and others, send spare pieces to reviewers, and all these costs get baked into their margin which can be 10 times component cost. They might not have direct employees, but are part of a larger chain.

There are much smaller manufacturers in audio - a one or two person team that sells directly, makes bespoke and a very small limited quanitity, provides service to a very small set of users, no formal reviews and no big distribution channel. You go to his place, check it out, order directly, low margins. In my mind these are small manufacturers. If one of them were to join Audio Exotics, I would argue he is part of a bigger chain, because now is not just serving himself, but also AE. That is serious financial backing and margins have to be adjusted accordingly to feed the chain.

Hi,

Thanks for sharing your perspective—it’s an interesting distinction you’ve made between what you consider "small" and "very small" manufacturers in the audio industry. I see your point about the operational and financial backing some of these brands have, even if their design teams are relatively small. The ability to manage global distribution, attend shows like Munich, and support formal reviews certainly places them in a different league compared to truly bespoke one- or two-person operations.

One area I think is worth considering is the influence these smaller companies have on their suppliers. While some niche manufacturers might work closely with boutique suppliers, their limited purchasing power often restricts their ability to secure favorable terms, customizations, or even consistent supply. This dependency on a small pool of suppliers can create vulnerabilities, especially during disruptions. Unfortunately, these challenges can ripple down to customers in the form of delayed deliveries, higher prices, or inconsistent quality.

Your example about Audio Exotics is insightful. It highlights how joining a larger network can elevate even a smaller manufacturer, with implications for financial backing and margin adjustments. At the same time, I wonder if the additional layers in the chain might increase complexity and costs for end users.

 

[bonzo75]

Hi,

Thanks for sharing your perspective—it’s an interesting distinction you’ve made between what you consider "small" and "very small" manufacturers in the audio industry.

Small and big is relative to others in this field - if there is very small, they become small and small become big/medium.

At the same time, I wonder if the additional layers in the chain might increase complexity and costs for end users.

Of course that increase costs by a massive amount. You trade it in for perceived service (from a dealer/distributor close to you), resaleablility due to brand recognition, and the comfort of having to do your own research less (rely on pro reviewers, and more feedback from a larger group of users, and possibly consistency).

One area I think is worth considering is the influence these smaller companies have on their suppliers. While some niche manufacturers might work closely with boutique suppliers, their limited purchasing power often restricts their ability to secure favorable terms, customizations, or even consistent supply. This dependency on a small pool of suppliers can create vulnerabilities, especially during disruptions. Unfortunately, these challenges can ripple down to customers in the form of delayed deliveries, higher prices, or inconsistent quality.

I wouldn't worry about this much as small manufacturers can easily tell you hey if you want this, price has gone up by a few 100. I don't think for a bespoke product, increase in cost of material translates to much from when you were considering it. On the oher hand, for a bigger manufacturer, it will translate to much more as if he sells more units, he will have to stock more in surplus to finance what he perceives to be long-term (at that point) and even with bigger discounts, he will have to pass these costs through the channel. That said, I find I can usually get higher quality raw material included in a speaker or amp via bespoke at much lower cost, than the quality of material used in resistors, caps, and crossovers of big names. Big names also often go into further cost control and will ignore, for example, a Duelund or Jupiter and resort to their own local cap manufacturer for better control. The quality of tubes in big names is also quite poor compared to that I can get bespoke done to my spec.

Inconsisteny quality usually comes more from designer tweaking - and this can be more likely with a sole designer compared to a company that has a control to tell him to relax. At the same time, it has its benefits compared to taking the easier middle of the road path.

 

[microstrip]

Curious that no one is addressing three aspects I consider mandatory when accessing an high-end manufacturer - size and type of distribution network, longevity in the business and most of all - transparency. In high-end products I feel comfortable when I can get information about owner, designers and manufacturing facilities, as well as objective data about their products.

Surely accessing it is an weighted sum process with different weights - but some aspects are mandatory for me.

 

[Tabl10s]

Hifi is full of cottage companies that supply a need. My other hobby is amateur astronomy and the same happening there as well.

A new quality entry level analog set up is often at least €6-10K. Buying quality used components is often a better option. These days money is tight for the average young person, even older adults, so that's a limiting factor.

With prices constantly increasing to insane levels for high-end audio new people into hifi will have to settle for what they can afford. Right now Chi-Fi is getting most of the business because it is affordable.

Everyone settles for what they can afford...until they can no longer.

 

[A-Line]

Everyone settles for what they can afford...until they can no longer.

I used to think that way. Now when I cue a record or play a CD thoughts of upgrades quickly vanish.
I would suggest that your statement applies to most people but there's a small group of music lovers like me that realize a stopping point based upon sound rather than budgets or economics.

The enemy of good is better, like so many audiophiles have learned through swapping out gear on a somewhat regular basis only to realize what they had before was actually better.

Audiophiles are really never satisfied so they keep upgrading & tinkering with mods searching for that illusive perfect sound...

 

[Rt66indierock]

There was a prominent amplifier company that sold a few years ago six figure amplifiers and they kept failing bad. Often, even the fix failed. It was explained to me that the parts quality had variations that they had not accounted for. They redesigned the circuit and now it is stable.

So, they didn’t know things that were common knowledge in the seventies.

 

[mtemur]

That's very interesting, can i ask what that is based upon?
It's a subject very close to my heart, as I'm sure you can imagine.

It's not based on any hard fact or design element. I liked Boulder 2000 series more than other series. YMMV.

 

[exupgh12]

I wouldn't worry about this much as small manufacturers can easily tell you hey if you want this, price has gone up by a few 100. I don't think for a bespoke product, increase in cost of material translates to much from when you were considering it. On the oher hand, for a bigger manufacturer, it will translate to much more as if he sells more units, he will have to stock more in surplus to finance what he perceives to be long-term (at that point) and even with bigger discounts, he will have to pass these costs through the channel. That said, I find I can usually get higher quality raw material included in a speaker or amp via bespoke at much lower cost, than the quality of material used in resistors, caps, and crossovers of big names. Big names also often go into further cost control and will ignore, for example, a Duelund or Jupiter and resort to their own local cap manufacturer for better control. The quality of tubes in big names is also quite poor compared to that I can get bespoke done to my spec.

I believe there may be a misunderstanding here, and I’d like to share my perspective based on a recent conversation I had with one of the most respected manufacturers in the industry. Have you noticed how much time passes today between a product’s introduction and its delivery to the first customer? This delay is no coincidence; it reflects ongoing supply chain challenges that continue to affect the industry.

Moreover, the larger an organization, the more likely it is to receive priority from suppliers—provided those suppliers are still in business. Unfortunately, we’ve seen many cases in recent years where suppliers have been forced to shut their doors, further exacerbating these challenges.

Inconsisteny quality usually comes more from designer tweaking - and this can be more likely with a sole designer compared to a company that has a control to tell him to relax. At the same time, it has its benefits compared to taking the easier middle of the road path.

Quality is the result of several factors: thoughtful design, carefully selected components, and skilled labor. However, in recent years, supply chain challenges have forced many manufacturers to rely on lower-quality parts simply due to limited availability.

Additionally, disruptions arise when experienced and qualified workers leave the industry, impacting production standards. Smaller manufacturers, in particular, often struggle to withstand these challenges, putting their long-term sustainability at risk.

To navigate these difficulties, manufacturers must prioritize adaptability, seek alternative sourcing strategies, and invest in training programs to retain and develop skilled workers. These steps are critical to maintaining quality and ensuring resilience in a rapidly changing environment.

 

[bonzo75]

I believe there may be a misunderstanding here, and I’d like to share my perspective based on a recent conversation I had with one of the most respected manufacturers in the industry. Have you noticed how much time passes today between a product’s introduction and its delivery to the first customer? This delay is no coincidence; it reflects ongoing supply chain challenges that continue to affect the industry.

I am assuming your most respected manufacturers are big manufacturers. I am sure they have had issues with supplies to manage. The small (very small) doesn’t because of the number of units he is producing. He can pass it on much more easily as there is no chain to feed.

Moreover, the larger an organization, the more likely it is to receive priority from suppliers—

No because the small manufacturer is just not in competition. Why are you assuming he has same source? He is usually using much higher quality parts

Quality is the result of several factors: thoughtful design, carefully selected components, and skilled labor. However, in recent years, supply chain challenges have forced many manufacturers to rely on lower-quality parts simply due to limited availability.

Big manufacturers have been using lower quality parts well before current supply issues. I was not referring to current trend at all. I can get much higher quality parts buying direct from small manufacturers, they will be transparent with most of their parts. Do you know exactly what components go into the crossover of your S5? Ask any other Magico or Wilson friend. A small supplier will often tell you exactly what he is using for crossover and optimise to your room

 

[exupgh12]

I am assuming your most respected manufacturers are big manufacturers. I am sure they have had issues with supplies to manage. The small (very small) doesn’t because of the number of units he is producing. He can pass it on much more easily as there is no chain to feed.

Why not ask devor fidelity how long and who the supply of its bronze parts during Covid and later?
You think Mundorf would have sale 20 capacitors to small audio manufacturers if one of the bigger manufacturer would have pay for 10,000 of those capacitors 5, 10, or 20 times their price cause they need them?

No because the small manufacturer is just not in competition. Why are you assuming he has same source? He is usually using much higher quality parts

and who told you they won’t use the same source, who many manufacturers are considered top of the line in capacitors, drivers, cables, or even machinery, it’s a small world after all.

Big manufacturers have been using lower quality parts well before current supply issues. I was not referring to current trend at all. I can get much higher quality parts buying direct from small manufacturers, they will be transparent with most of their parts. Do you know exactly what components go into the crossover of your S5? Ask any other Magico or Wilson friend. A small supplier will often tell you exactly what he is using for crossover and optimise to your room

So big companies like Magico, Willson, MBL use lower quality’s parts from let’s say Lorenzo Audio?

Does Esoteric TT uses lower quality parts the Davici in-unison turntable?

 

[bonzo75]

So big companies like Magico, Willson, MBL use lower quality’s parts from let’s say Lorenzo Audio?

My question was, do you know what parts they use? Which cap, resistor, inductor in their crossover

 

[bonzo75]

Why not ask devor fidelity how long and who the supply of its bronze parts during Covid and later?
You think Mundorf would have sale 20 capacitors to small audio manufacturers if one of the bigger manufacturer would have pay for 10,000 of those capacitors 5, 10, or 20 times their price cause they need them?

So they could produce 10000 but not 20 additional? And small manufacturers could not find substitutes for them easily?