High End Passion and Craftsmanship For Sure . . . But Also Occasionally High Cost and Unreliable?

[PeterA]

Ron

I understand a little about these things and I can say with certainty, that there should not be a turntable for 50,000 euro or more! This is a stretch, a mockery and greed.

What would you say about a rare and coveted turntable long out of production like the Micro Seiki SX 8000 II that costs about that amount if you can find it in excellent condition? There is no manufacturer in the picture. Price is determined by the market, supply and demand. This example has nothing to do with cost of production.

What do you mean when you say their “should not“ be a turntable for this amount?

 

[PeterA]

In an industry this small I absolutely believe that (some) companies care what members of this forum think.

PS: Vaguely similar to the way almost no one admits to voting for Richard Nixon the second time around yet he was elected president, I believe that WBF is monitored by industry people more widely than many of them would admit publicly.

Absolutely. Otherwise, they wouldn’t see the value of advertising here. Some even join to discuss their latest products in the threads.

 

[tima]

I have been making turntables for 45 years. I have made a lot of prototypes, I have learned a lot, with measurements and testing, but mostly by listening, also by regularly visiting the Philharmonic and the opera. My product costs 6k and is the pinnacle of craftsmanship, simple as a turntable should be, with extremely small tolerances. I have the knowledge, the ability and the money to make a 100kg or more turntable and sell it for 100k euros, but this is stupidity that will slowly lead to the collapse of hifi...

What is your brand ?

 

[hb22]

What is your brand ?

Holbo

 

[infinitely baffled]

Are you suggesting there are no audible benefits to be had from a turntable priced over 50k vs one priced slightly less than 50k? Why do you say 50k should be the upper limit? What about the craftsman who spends years listening to various prototypes finally landing on the design and choice of parts to introduce a model that takes 3 months to machine, assemble, and package for a single unit. Is he not justified to charge not only for time and materials but also R&D — is he not deserving of recouping those costs plus some profit too?

Are there other products you believe should have an upper limit to price?

One also needs to consider what will happen to a statement turntable once the manufacturer has shuffled off this mortal coil. Your once sota deck might become an albatross around the neck if there is no longer any way to have it serviced, and it's resale value may plummet to a fraction of what you paid. Be especially wary of low volume boutique products built by elderly audiophiles lacking any organisational backup.

 

[tima]

High End Passion and Craftsmanship For Sure . . . But Also Occasionally High Cost and Unreliable?

...
Putting to one side the Veblen good phenomenon a lot of components in the industry are expensive. Are they expensive because they use expensive parts? Often this is certainly the case and provably so. Are finished audio components expensive sometimes because extremely small production volume requires manufacturers to pay a lot for the component parts with little to no economies of scale?

But with small startups which are inadequately funded does this also inevitably mean inadequate testing of components before they are sent to reviewers for review in the hope that a positive review will jump-start the designer's entire business? Are there cases where small manufacturers send to reviewers components which are barely past the prototype stage? If the review is positive might the designer suddenly be faced with a relative avalanche of orders which he/she is not in a parts position or in a labor position to satisfy in a timely manner while also maintaining the highest production standards of sample-to-sample consistency and quality?

These are very difficult questions, I fully appreciate. I hope it's obvious to everybody that I completely love this hobby and this industry. But our love for this niche industry shouldn't mean that we, as consumers, should be hesitant or afraid to ask and to discuss these kinds of questions.

What do you think about these questions?

It is another set of manufactured hypothetical questions.

 

[Ron Resnick]

It is another set of manufactured hypothetical questions.

You obviously have no interest in the topic, so why do you to feel the need to piss on someone else's thread?

 

[andromedaaudio]

The amplifier i had the most problems with was from a Large audiocompany .
My Boutique audio amplifier/ Small company i have currently never broke down over a 14 year lifespan .

So the reasoning that one could have more problems with relatively small audiocompanies as compared to large scale companies is wrong

 

[infinitely baffled]

The amplifier i had the most problems with was from a Large audiocompany .
My Boutique audio amplifier/ Small company i have currently never broke down over a 14 year lifespan .

So the reasoning that one could have more problems with relatively small audiocompanies as compared to large scale companies is wrong

What happens when the company - or sole trader - ceases to trade once the driving force behind it is no longer with us?
Sure if they sold product in sufficient volume there will be demand for servicing.
But what if they only ever sold a couple of units?
Looking backwards they may feel that they deserve a return on their r&d. But what is the products actual resale value going forward with no backup?
This should be reflected in the msrp.

 

[infinitely baffled]

The amplifier i had the most problems with was from a Large audiocompany .
My Boutique audio amplifier/ Small company i have currently never broke down over a 14 year lifespan .

So the reasoning that one could have more problems with relatively small audiocompanies as compared to large scale companies is wrong

Conversely i received a level of support from a well established company (Boulder) that would have been beyond the means of a boutique manufacturer. I bought a second hand unit (that was in the process of being replaced in their lineup) for about a third of msrp. Yet i was provided with support and service backup as if i had purchased their statement pieces at full msrp. I don't believe a one man band would have been able to afford to offer this level of support. And as for the original fault, my understanding was that a previous owner's partner had poured a drink on it. So even if a perfectly reliable design is well implemented, random stuff can happen that might leave you holding the baby.

 

[andromedaaudio]

And as for the original fault, my understanding was that a previous owner's partner had poured a drink on it. So even if a perfectly reliable design is well implemented, random stuff can happen that might leave you holding the baby.

Pouring a drink on electronics is off course not covered by any electronics company .

Kudos to Boulder for giving you after sales support on which was i suppose an older second hand unit , Boulder is extremely well made i never had problems with my 1060.

 

[infinitely baffled]

Pouring a drink on electronics is off course not covered by any electronics company .

Kudos to Boulder for giving you after sales support on which was i suppose an older second hand unit , Boulder is extremely well made i never had problems with my 1060.

Mine was a ten year old 2060.☺

As an aside, there are many folk posting here with very different financial circumstances. Perhaps some only spend what they can afford to lose. My own purchases often require years to complete; my upgrade to 2160 took three years to fund. I am currently contemplating a 12 Year Plan that would include a pair of 3050's. I would not even consider such an undertaking if i had any reservations about whether the company would still be here to service them and honour warranties...(although to be clear, there was no official warranty on my poor abused 2060.)
It will take me 12 years' living on beans on toast to save the money, risking losing it all on a defunct product built by a deceased company is absolutely not an option.

 

[bonzo75]

Putting to one side the Veblen good phenomenon a lot of components in the industry are expensive. Are they expensive because they use expensive parts? Often this is certainly the case and provably so.

Usually not. Please stop speading falshoods. Please state the cost of the drivers in expensive speakers, cost of materials in 10 - 15k cartridges, types of transformers and resistors and caps used in expensive electronics to justify your claim, to show that you have done research across a variety of products to make this claim.

Most of us audiophiles love the concept of a passionate "mad" scientist being driven by his love of extraordinarily reproduced music to invent exotic designs and audio components which advance the state of the audio arts. I know I love this idea.

Usually it is people justifying their purchase/fanboyism, by designating the designer of the component they are a fanboy of, a "mad scientist". Often he might just be designing blingy products with poor sound and high price tags. So who is the mad scientist is just a subset of which is a good product

But with small startups which are inadequately funded does this also inevitably mean inadequate testing of components before they are sent to reviewers for review in the hope that a positive review will jump-start the designer's entire business? Are there cases where small manufacturers send to reviewers components which are barely past the prototype stage? If the review is positive might the designer suddenly be faced with a relative avalanche of orders which he/she is not in a parts position or in a labor position to satisfy in a timely manner while also maintaining the highest production standards of sample-to-sample consistency and quality?

Ok, you want your OP to make a case against small manufacturers and for big-industry players. Small manufacturers (the few of them who are good), often have more indepth knowledge of a particular category, use higher quality parts, and produce a sonically superior component. They do not have the funds to produce multiple components to send some across for reviews or leave lying multiple components on shelves of many retailers. They produce on an order basis, people who know them and trust them fund their work, or every product sold leads to next one being produced/

There is a lot of negative feedback on this forum on big players too, who are full-blown companies and/or respected brands, who have provided poor service, used inexpensive parts, and even closed down.

 

[Folsom]

For every item sent off that is not maybe as polished as it should be, there is 10 more sitting in a reviewers house that are fundamentally broken but they are going to connect your device to it anyways and blame yours for not working out right.

 

[tima]

Holbo

Holbo - Airbearing Turntable System - Holbo

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holbo.si

Interesting. Out of Slovenia. Are there other TT manufacturers in your country along with you and Franc Kuzma?

 

[Jack Pot]

A few examples along my hifi journey:
1. I started the journey half a century ago with NAD and Yamaha equipment, never expecting it to last for long. I loved my French Elipson 2-way speakers which survived many upgrades.
2. I entered the world of High End with a Roksan/SME V/Koetsu Black turntable with NAIM amplification.
3. I then met Max Townshend, ingénieur-bricoleur by excellence, whose radical designs blew away the established competition. His turntable was a marvel, his cables were among the first to be cryogenically treated, his seismic platforms were groundbreaking (pun intended) etc... He taught me to trust my ears and each of his products was a revelation. I vividly remember how his loudspeaker cables sounded much better in my system than Nordost loudspeakers at the same price point (or the NAIM loudspeaker cables I had used until then; from then on, I was sold on cables). Or how his turntable performed better, to my ears, than a TechDas at 5 times the price (with the same cartridge and tonearm cable installed, into the same system). Or how he replaced the cable within my SME V with a cryogenically treated silver cable. Or how his platforms and podiums elevated the enjoyment of my system (I still highly regard them).
4. I now reached the end of my journey: Nordost Odin Gold cable loom, Nordost QB10 distribution block, Nordost QRT, Nordost Sort, Nordost TC Kones, Neo rack, ACapella platforms, Acapella horn speakers, Burmester 218 power amplifier, Clearaudio Statement turntable with Clearaudio Diamond Jubilee cartridge, dCS Vivaldi Apex 3-piece suite.
So, the answers to the question are, imho, as follows:
a. Small companies can be innovative and competitive and deliver excellence at far lower price points than the established brands. Their mid-priced products should appeal to the vast majority of hifi enthusiasts. Unfortunately, they lack the marketing clout to break through. But the discerning consumer (m/f) will find his way to them if he trusts his ears. He will be richly rewarded.
b. As I became economically more secure, I gravitated to long-established companies with an excellent aftermarket reputation and superior manufacturing standards. Clearaudio is second to none in that respect. Or take dCS. When, in 2016, I visited the dCS factory in Cambridge, I decided to buy the Vivaldi transport in the knowledge that the manufacture of its Sony chip/TEAC Esoteric VRDS loading mechanism had by then been discontinued. But I had nothing to fear: dCS had bought the whole remaining stock at a cost GBP 1 mio, in part to be able to service the transport in the future.
c. To those who begrudge the happy few splurging on expensive audio equipment, I reply:
c.1. Upgrades always mean that excellent 2nd-hand equipment comes on the market, often at a fraction of the price of new.
c.2. Innovations/ ameliorations tend to trickle down a brand's product range to the benefit of all hifi-enthusiasts.
c.3. Without the support of high-end audio consumers, innovation/amelioration and excellent craftmanship would not take place.

 

[infinitely baffled]

A few examples along my hifi journey:
1. I started the journey half a century ago with NAD and Yamaha equipment, never expecting it to last for long. I loved my French Elipson 2-way speakers which survived many upgrades.
2. I entered the world of High End with a Roksan/SME V/Koetsu Black turntable with NAIM amplification.
3. I then met Max Townshend, ingénieur-bricoleur by excellence, whose radical designs blew away the established competition. His turntable was a marvel, his cables were among the first to be cryogenically treated, his seismic platforms were groundbreaking (pun intended) etc... He taught me to trust my ears and each of his products was a revelation. I vividly remember how his loudspeaker cables sounded much better in my system than Nordost loudspeakers at the same price point (or the NAIM loudspeaker cables I had used until then; from then on, I was sold on cables). Or how his turntable performed better, to my ears, than a TechDas at 5 times the price (with the same cartridge and tonearm cable installed, into the same system). Or how he replaced the cable within my SME V with a cryogenically treated silver cable. Or how his platforms and podiums elevated the enjoyment of my system (I still highly regard them).
4. I now reached the end of my journey: Nordost Odin Gold cable loom, Nordost QB10 distribution block, Nordost QRT, Nordost Sort, Nordost TC Kones, Neo rack, ACapella platforms, Acapella horn speakers, Burmester 218 power amplifier, Clearaudio Statement turntable with Clearaudio Diamond Jubilee cartridge, dCS Vivaldi Apex 3-piece suite.
So, the answers to the question are, imho, as follows:
a. Small companies can be innovative and competitive and deliver excellence at far lower price points than the established brands. Their mid-priced products should appeal to the vast majority of hifi enthusiasts. Unfortunately, they lack the marketing clout to break through. But the discerning consumer (m/f) will find his way to them if he trusts his ears. He will be richly rewarded.
b. As I became economically more secure, I gravitated to long-established companies with an excellent aftermarket reputation and superior manufacturing standards. Clearaudio is second to none in that respect. Or take dCS. When, in 2016, I visited the dCS factory in Cambridge, I decided to buy the Vivaldi transport in the knowledge that the manufacture of its Sony chip/TEAC Esoteric VRDS loading mechanism had by then been discontinued. But I had nothing to fear: dCS had bought the whole remaining stock at a cost GBP 1 mio, in part to be able to service the transport in the future.
c. To those who begrudge the happy few splurging on expensive audio equipment, I reply:
c.1. Upgrades always mean that excellent 2nd-hand equipment comes on the market, often at a fraction of the price of new.
c.2. Innovations/ ameliorations tend to trickle down a brand's product range to the benefit of all hifi-enthusiasts.
c.3. Without the support of high-end audio consumers, innovation/amelioration and excellent craftmanship would not take place.

Just an observation....i share your admiration for the late Max Townshend.
But the Rock turntable was designed, manufactured and marketed by a gentleman by the name of John Bugee at Cranfield University. Max later bought the rights to it and was forced to make some alterations, since John's patented ptfe bearing design was sold to a US aerospace firm and could no longer be used.
Max made numerous hifi advances of his own, particular in the field of resonance control, but his version of The Rock was widely recognised as inferior to John's original Cranfield Rock design.

 

[Jack Pot]

Just an observation....i share your admiration for the late Max Townshend.
But the Rock turntable was designed, manufactured and marketed by a gentleman by the name of John Bugee at Cranfield University. Max later bought the rights to it and was forced to make some alterations, since John's patented ptfe bearing design was sold to a US aerospace firm and could no longer be used.
Max made numerous hifi advances of his own, particular in the field of resonance control, but his version of The Rock was widely recognised as inferior to John's original Cranfield Rock design.

Interesting, thanks. Yes, Max Townshend deserves our admiration, not only for what he manufactured, but because he was the kindest of people.
Regarding small manufacturers: we just learned about the existence of Holbo!

 

[bonzo75]

Interesting. Out of Slovenia. Are there other TT manufacturers in your country along with you and Franc Kuzma?

Yes, pear audio

 

[bonzo75]

Just an observation....i share your admiration for the late Max Townshend.
But the Rock turntable was designed, manufactured and marketed by a gentleman by the name of John Bugee at Cranfield University. Max later bought the rights to it and was forced to make some alterations, since John's patented ptfe bearing design was sold to a US aerospace firm and could no longer be used.
Max made numerous hifi advances of his own, particular in the field of resonance control, but his version of The Rock was widely recognised as inferior to John's original Cranfield Rock design.

Wow great information. So much for the “mad scientist” certificate.