High End Passion and Craftsmanship For Sure . . . But Also Occasionally High Cost and Unreliable?
- Thread starter Ron Resnick
- Start date
The Boulder 2060 is a great-sounding amplifier, much better than the 1000 series in my opinion. I don’t believe the newer 3000 models are superior to the older 2000 series.
Ron, what high-end Audio companies would you describe as being founded and run by “mad scientists”?
What has caused you to ruminate about these topics recently? Do you have experience with some of these companies? It’s all so theoretical and hypothetical without specific examples. If you’ve been thinking about this for a while, could you share specific examples that prompted you to ask the questions in the opening post?
You are a forum owner, a reviewer, and a dealer, so you have interests in the industry. You are also a hobbyist. These questions seem to be posed from the point of view of a hobbyist, trying to make decisions about what brands to buy but with a bias supporting the established brands and industry.
Could you clarify the intent of the thread and share specific examples of the companies you have in mind?
If you could, then you would.
The important thing is not building a €100,000 turntable but achieving €100,000 worth of sound from it. If there is demand for more expensive products, companies will certainly manufacture and sell them. This is not about the collapse of hi-fi; there have always been budget products, and there always will be.
Manufacturers that can only operate at the budget level always complain about the ridiculously priced upper-echelon gear. They’re right—high-end gear is indeed ridiculously priced. But this isn’t because budget manufacturers are being reasonable or caring about us, the consumers. It simply means they’re complaining about not being able to earn the kind of profits that upper-echelon companies do. If someone is willing to pay €100,000 for your €6,000 turntable, those complaints will quickly be replaced with statements like “how expensive the parts are” and “how much time it takes to manufacture,” and so on.
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The high-end audio industry represents a specialized market where passion for music meets technological innovation. At its core, this unique ecosystem thrives on the dedication of manufacturers and enthusiasts who pursue exceptional sound quality. However, beneath the surface of this audiophile paradise lies a complex landscape, particularly for small manufacturers who must navigate significant challenges while maintaining their commitment to audio excellence.
These small-scale producers, despite their innovative approaches and dedication to craft, often face considerable obstacles in terms of production, market reach, and sustainability. While their passion for creating superior audio equipment is undeniable, consumers need to approach their purchases with careful consideration. This includes thoroughly researching manufacturers, understanding product limitations, and recognizing the potential risks associated with investing in boutique audio equipment.
The intersection of artisanal craftsmanship and commercial viability in this industry continues to evolve, making it crucial for both manufacturers and consumers to maintain realistic expectations while preserving the innovative spirit that makes high-end audio special.
These small-scale producers, despite their innovative approaches and dedication to craft, often face considerable obstacles in terms of production, market reach, and sustainability. While their passion for creating superior audio equipment is undeniable, consumers need to approach their purchases with careful consideration. This includes thoroughly researching manufacturers, understanding product limitations, and recognizing the potential risks associated with investing in boutique audio equipment.
The intersection of artisanal craftsmanship and commercial viability in this industry continues to evolve, making it crucial for both manufacturers and consumers to maintain realistic expectations while preserving the innovative spirit that makes high-end audio special.
are you saying big and established names are risk free? Have you read the feedback on some established companies on this forum? At least with a small manufacturer you can make him an offer for what he currently owns and receive delivery the next day, having heard that exact component. you don't haveto make an offer for what is not built.
No; this is an incorrect assumption. I am assuming that by "established" you mean larger, better known brands which have been in business a relatively long time.
No; I do not have a bias supporting established brands.
I would characterize my personal hobby purchases as being mostly from medium to small brands (e.g., Aesthetix, Reed, Jadis, Clarisys, LampizatOr).
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Jadis to me is an established long term company. Aesthetix is an established brand though he might be running it as a one person company (with a lot of forum complaints, all love the sound). Clarisys is a product you are selling so I would not bring it to this discussion. I supported Lampi a lot when it was a small company and used to be dismissed by detractors as a small brand from Poland cannot trust it, and you did not support it when it was a small company. Today is the leading player in the digital market with products across the price range. Even as a small brand, Lukasz used to provide extremely fast service. Not that dacs wouldn't develop a fault, most hifi develops a fault, but he would fix it quickly and he grew because the followers he developed as a small brand became repeat purchasers. Most of his marketing was word of mouth from non-industry consumers. I don't rate Reed sonically.
In response to post#40
Thank you Ked
To me, John Bugee qualifies for the mad scientist label, strictly a mad engineer.
However there's no doubt Max was the more able businessman. Certainly more personable.
When i visited John i had the novel experience of wondering whether i was indeed a robot designed to steal trade secrets, as this was the impression he gave when we interacted and i clumsily, nervously deployed the same idiom twice. He cocked his head in confirmation of a suspicion he must have had since we met...had he just rumbled the flaw in my program?
Very strange. Id say he's a classic example of the sort Ron had in mind in his op...gifted engineer builds superior product but fails at business.
He said he was so disappointed by his - strangely unanticipated- inability to continue using his ptfe bearing, after he had sold the rights to it, that disappointment caused him to turn his back on the audio industry.
I met him when he personally serviced the Rock i had just bought. I gained just a brief insight into a brilliant and eccentric inventor, not best suited to navigating the alien environment of business. To this day my reference for analogue dynamics and bass solidity and extension is the Cranfield Rock.
Thank you Ked
To me, John Bugee qualifies for the mad scientist label, strictly a mad engineer.
However there's no doubt Max was the more able businessman. Certainly more personable.
When i visited John i had the novel experience of wondering whether i was indeed a robot designed to steal trade secrets, as this was the impression he gave when we interacted and i clumsily, nervously deployed the same idiom twice. He cocked his head in confirmation of a suspicion he must have had since we met...had he just rumbled the flaw in my program?
Very strange. Id say he's a classic example of the sort Ron had in mind in his op...gifted engineer builds superior product but fails at business.
He said he was so disappointed by his - strangely unanticipated- inability to continue using his ptfe bearing, after he had sold the rights to it, that disappointment caused him to turn his back on the audio industry.
I met him when he personally serviced the Rock i had just bought. I gained just a brief insight into a brilliant and eccentric inventor, not best suited to navigating the alien environment of business. To this day my reference for analogue dynamics and bass solidity and extension is the Cranfield Rock.
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That's very interesting, can i ask what that is based upon?
It's a subject very close to my heart, as I'm sure you can imagine.
Not sure of the component status, but there is the infamous (un-named) amplifier that Art Dudley in Jan 2019 Stereophile reported caught fire. However, events such as this are pretty rare. At the lower end, there are some incidents of copy-kat inexpensive Chinese components (none 'professionally' reviewed) that failed to attach the chassis ground to the IEC power inlet (this is dangerous). However, note that EU CE marking may not require third party certification for many products where self-declaration by the manufacturer of compliance is all that is required if the product is of a low-risk category.
Main line companies with greater liability are generally serious and honest about the electrical safety aspects, however, some items commonly sold such as balanced transformers are really only intended (by NFPA-70, the National Electric Code) for commercial installations and not residential.
Not uncommon at the lower price points. John Atkinson, in Stereophile, provided a glowing review and measurements for the Okto dac8 Stereo D/A processor https://www.stereophile.com/content/okto-dac8-stereo-da-processor. The company was unable to meet the 'immediate' demand and there was a backlog of orders.
At the upper end, there is always a risk of the 'owner' passing away with no heir or their 'genius' is not reflected in the follow-on designs. But some companies, such as Wilson, and Arye have successfully made the transition to the next generation and of course, some have not. Some that fall behind and then are sold to investors can be a loss such as Wadia. The debacle that Phillips caused when it suddenly ceased manufacture of the high-end swing-laser CD-drives without any option for final purchase left many high-end CD Transports unsupported. Any design dependent on semi-conductors and software is always a risk since the associated technology moves so fast that spare parts may only be affordable by better funded organizations. For amplifiers and preamps, many established companies have large stocks of repair parts for discontinued products such as Audio Research.
And some designs are pretty much timeless. Tube amps/pre-amps with point-to-point wiring, or those that do not use erotic multi-layer circuit boards (I had the one of the best east coast techs turn down a recap of a Wadia 27 because of the multi-layer boards), or some are designed for ease of repair. Maybe its screw terminals or if you look at the internals of Kondo design https://www.brookaudio.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/2020/05/m7heritage_5.jpg you will see where the circuit board uses turrets - this is not common (Wyetech used it) and its much more labor intensive, but it bullet-proof for ease of repair.
If you plan on holding onto an item for a long period of time, or buying a used item, it's prudent to investigate the company and the design. If you go to the company's web site, do they list all the legacy manuals and software. Small operation companies will often forgo this detail. Does the design look likes its repairable. Some hi-end is so overbuilt, that lasting 50-years is possible with the exception of many electrolytic capacitors whose service life can vary; is it the common rated 85C and 1000-Hrs, or is it 105C and 1000-Hrs (common for Vishay), or industrial power cap can be 85C and 10,000-hrs. The standard thumb rule is that cap lifetime doubles for each 10C that it operates below its rated temperature. And some components may have 100 or more capacitors with some standing in row like Terra-Cotta soldiers.
However, after all is said and done, it's down to the old adage - Caveat Emptor (Buyer Beware). The more informed you are, the lower your risk, but some exotic components will have greater risk. Which has 'some' parallels with the saying "Don’t invest what you can’t afford to lose"; noting that audio is rarely an investment, but it's the concept of risk.
Just some thoughts
Oh hell no they can be the worst offenders. You assume 5 years down the road, with an established company, you will get support which in some cases just doesn't happen. I have seen it happen over and over again.
Rob
Bonzo,
I’m not suggesting only big establishment are safest, many well-known brands have faced criticism, just like smaller manufacturers.
While, one distinct advantage with smaller manufacturers is flexibility. For example, you can ask smaller manufacturers for some modifications as you’re not required to commit to something that hasn’t been built yet.
That said, large companies generally present a safer bet compared to artisan businesses. Let’s consider supply chain issues. Imagine both a large corporation and a small artisan business need capacitors for their production. The corporation requires 10,000 units, while the artisan needs only 100. In the event of a manufacturing shortage, who do you think suppliers will prioritize? The pandemic taught us some hard lessons about supply chain resilience and how smaller businesses often struggle in such scenarios.
Additionally, large firms typically have better resources to manage disruptions. They might hold larger inventories, maintain broader manufacturing capabilities, and access more reliable facilities.
There’s also the matter of continuity: brands like Clear Audio, B&W, Sony, Denon, Pioneer, and Panasonic have outlived their original founders. These companies are built to endure beyond their creators. On the other hand, many artisan businesses fail to survive once the founder steps aside or passes away.
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Those are not top high end audio companies , these companies produce mid level hifi .
Mass production large scale audio / compromised SQ.
Smaller manufacturers with bad reps are much less. Mostly because they just don't have the numbers. Their can be general distrust by those used to big manufacturers, that's all.
This is total theory on your part, in reality it might not be this way. I can easily counter this with a small manufacturer can service a handful of customers he has sold directly to much more easily than they big manufacturer relying on a supply chain (which in hifi is never stable, dealers and distributors change quite a bit). Also, a small manufacturer making SETs type amps has point to point wiring so his products can easily be serviced as compared to big manufacturers who use PCBs or something proprietary. Small manufacturers who use established drivers (whether vintage like Altec or current like Scanspeak) can replace drivers much more easily than coffin box companies who ise so-called "proprietary innovations".
Perhaps, but some of them make pretty good sounding products. And imagine if they put their research and development resources behind a higher level product. Some of their long discontinued vintage products still hold up quite well today.
Its not worth it for them peter.
Imagine Panasonic can sell 300 million products a year priced at 500 dollars with a 10 % profit margin .
Thats 15 Billion USD.
These companies are run by shareholders who are in it for profit
Top SQ audioproducts are made by connoisseurs
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