Munich HighEnd 2024

Audiohertz2 · May 14, 2024

morricab said:
Yes I guess we will. I went to an opera in Munich on Saturday night and I can tell you for certain that only the AC system approaches what I heard live… at least from this show. Not sure what your musical reference is but live is mine.

My wife, who loves live ballet and opera but generally doesn’t care about hifi felt the same way after going around the show on Saturday and Sunday.

Both you guys are talking past each other , based on many comments Marty’s Observation seems spot on , what you heard on Sunday was obviously different as by your own admission it was not good until Sunday ..

Obviously the setup wanted to be dialed in and Sunday it did ..

Regards

Al M. · May 14, 2024

orfeo_monteverdi said:
PS: please note that I have no idea who Brad is (apart from: AC dealer in Switzerland, it seems), and I never met him. But I see he listens to classical (amongst other), and he regularly attends live concerts.

I agree, theoretically listening to classical and especially live classical should support a poster's credibility, because that should give them a reliable frame of reference. Yet does it always do so in practice? Lately I have developed some doubts about that.

bonzo75 · May 14, 2024

Audiohertz2 said:
Both you guys are talking past each other , based on many comments Marty’s comments seems spot on , what you heard on Sunday was obviously different as by your own admission it was not good until Sunday ..

Listening to an opera Saturday night might have helped. Marty did not listen to an opera Wednesday night.

DasguteOhr · May 14, 2024

RCanelas said:
After having recharged my batteries, I must say this year was great at Munich. A lot of cool things.

On no particular order

View attachment 131049
LM/Supravox sounded very good. The integration was beautiful, impressive tonality, texture and dynamics from the big boys. The room was not a concern. Effortless.

View attachment 131050
Tomas Mayer (@VinylSavor) and Admire Audio. Fantastic tone, extension, verticality and surprising imaging. Effortless.

View attachment 131051
Bayz room. Very nicely setup, room had no treatment and still it sounded good. Very limited overhang, very nice integration, most impressive imaging we've ever seen from a omnidirectional topology. Not effortless, but not remotely strained sounding also.

View attachment 131052
Thrax was, disconcerting. We came out of the many visits to the room perturbed. The level of integration, intimacy and musicality expression where off the charts. I can see why someone with a traditional hifi experience would find this room taxing, but we all found it just impressive. Off the rails effortless. Everything just happened, and you where left wondering if all recordings have so much much music in them after all.

View attachment 131053
Very nice and relaxed experience from Boenicke, just like last year. These are not afraid of the room, but they did sound like their limit was right there, a couple of dBs away, at times.

View attachment 131054
Wolf Von-Langa. Lovely room, amazing dynamics and texture from everywhere in the spectrum, nice integration, pure music machines. On both rooms, but this one was surprising because of the balance between intimacy and scale.

View attachment 131056
Unsurprisingly a bit on the sterile side of things (for me), but surprising because they deliver, in a grand way. Pure energy, very nice integration, nice balance between the tautness and musicality. Hideous, but so are most of the other things we liked.

View attachment 131057
Cessaro. Small ones where impressive, they had a tough job with a big room, they did amazing. Big ones are weird. Tonality had something off about it, dependent about your listening spot. Dynamics and scale for ages. Too loud of a room sometimes, at which point they sounded more like a PA system then anything else.

View attachment 131058
These wide baffle active where impressive. Very nice integration, extension, scale and tone.

View attachment 131060
Sigma is a long time preferred. I don't know what other people refer to when they say these where a bit bass shy. In comparison to the objective and ridiculous disgrace MOST other systems on the show where with bass, where even if they had no extension the room was just filled with mud and one note ringers, this was just consistently on track. You could hear well into the 20s just the note, not the usual distortion soup. High on the effortless class.

Other likes:
- Alsyvox. Impressive integration, texture and dynamics. Liked it better last year, this sounded a bit thinner.
- Goebel. Very nice setup, clean sound, nice integration across the spectrum.
- Lorenzo. Lots of potential, needed a bit more help with the setup to tame the bass. On bass heavy tracks it was unlistenable, otherwise it was textured and dynamic with nice tone.

People where awesome, had nice conversations and meetings, even if we didn't get to speak to everybody we wanted to, and we missed a lot of people from WBF!

Did you hear the new speaker 2 way speaker at boenicke ( left and right your photo) this is new brand of him basel acoustics v1 or only the w 22.

RCanelas · May 14, 2024

DasguteOhr said:
Did you hear the new speaker 2 way speaker at boenicke ( left and right your photo) this is new brand of him basel acoustics v1 or only the w 22.

I did. It sounded good, but it was too out of place in the large room. Can't say if it was on the exceptional or the banal side of good.

RCanelas · May 14, 2024

morricab said:
Can't really agree with you though about the WVL speakers, either in Phasemation room or in the WVL room. Both sound very thin and lightweight...weak even.

Didn't hear anything I liked about the big Vivd system.

morricab said:
Bayz sounded hard like the lack of treatment on the walls...I am sure that it will change radically with the room

I guess I'm unconsciously compensating for room/setup/gear somewhat here, I hear what you're saying. I'm probably referring more to their potential in a careful setup, something I didn't see in a lot of other things (potential).

DasguteOhr · May 14, 2024

RCanelas said:
I did. It sounded good, but it was too out of place in the large room. Can't say if it was on the exceptional or the banal side of good.

OK thanks. I find the technology behind it exciting with floating drivers that have no screw connection to the housing. Friends said the three-dimensional reproduction was exceptional.

wil · May 14, 2024

morricab said:
Yes I guess we will. I went to an opera in Munich on Saturday night and I can tell you for certain that only the AC system approaches what I heard live… at least from this show. Not sure what your musical reference is but live is mine.

My wife, who loves live ballet and opera but generally doesn’t care about hifi felt the same way after going around the show on Saturday and Sunday.

These differences in perception are part of what make this whole endeavor so interesting!

metei · May 14, 2024

Room by room impressions, please see former post for disclaimers..

Esoteric Room - with Wilson;
I am planning to buy a Wilson - Alexia V someday. If this was my only chance to listen to them, I would doubt that decision. I also like Esoteric sound (I have an old X-03 CD player). But this room was "ringing" at least when I visited (early first day).

DarTZeel Room with CS Port;
DarTZeel is another brand that doesn't sing to me, along with another brand that doesn't sing to me; Stenheim. Room felt as cold as the Swiss Alps :]]

ESD Room;
Can't NOT visit Munich and skip the photo of the million dollar Chinese system. Heard it last year, liked the sound but not to the level of million. Was not on this year and I just passed by this year.

Boulder - YG Room;
I am familiar with both YG and Boulder sounds and even together. I was there basically to hear the big guys but I wasn't ready to SEE them. Those amplifiers are BIG. You wouldn't understand this statement until You see two with Your own eyes :]] Really loved the sound, but the room was not ideal, they had done their best for the room.

Living Voice - Definitive Audio - SJS Room;
During Munich 2023, I was love-struck. Fell in love with the sound in this room, couldn't leave it. Returned and ordered R80's messing up my budget. Their magic ingredient is battery powered room, totally off grid, made possible by low power amps. I also love the idea of SJS amplifiers, He is a fellow WBF'er. What can I say, room sounded magical. Less magical though, since I have been listening to my R80's for months now :]]

MSB - Ikigai - Magico Room;
Listening to MSB Cascade the (closest to) way it is intended to sound. Also Cascade is used as preamp here. Really loved the sound. Tis room sounded right for me. Didn't sound this way nor that way, sounded just as it should. Really loved the room, could spend all day with this system. Loved the Cascade sound..

TuneAudio Room;
Really liked the sound in this room. Plain (in a good manner), smooth, engaging..

AlsyVox - Pilium - Taiko Room with Kyda and AudioMass;
Loved this room last year (speakers for sure, can't remember the rest), loved it this year. One of the best sounding rooms of the show for me. Planars have their own magic to them and AlsyVox were spelling that magic right.

Odeon Audio - New Audio Frontiers Room;
Liked the sound very much. Classical SE - Horn sound. I was more impressed by the amplifiers, New Audio Frontiers.

Vitus Room;
Although I can't say I am a big fan of Monitor Audio Hypns visually, I liked the sound of the room. I am familiar with Vitus tone and I was hoping to hear SA-030 but naturally they were displaying bigger guns. Very good sounding room.

TBC..

RCanelas · May 14, 2024

One thing that keeps jumping to me is the proliferation of screens on everything. I'm not sure if their numbers increased from last years or not, but to me it speaks volumes about most of hifi consumers, manufacturers and sellers. It is part of a larger discussion about design and long term value of hifi.

Nothing screams quality experience better than a middle aged man in a huge room, hunched over an impressive rack with many tens or hundreds of thousands of dollars of audio equipment, between two large and impressive loudspeakers, squinting his eyes to see a 1x1 inch representation of a Led Zepplin II album cover on a shitty, overly bright and extremely usefull 1x2 inch lcd screen.

It was everywhere in Munich, and it is a sad sight.

wil · May 14, 2024

PeterA said:
I think Brad is a dealer for AC. I am not surprised by his comments at all. He defended the sound from the first days presentation and it only got better from their. It is the same as your occasional comments about Clarysis. You both talk your book. I get that and have come to expect it.

That may be true, but a lot of people here are talking up their preferences constantly— not just dealers. Vintage, Horns, Digital, Analog…

bonzo75 · May 14, 2024

wil said:
That may be true, but a lot of people here are talking up their preferences constantly— not just dealers. Vintage, Horns, Digital, Analog…

Preferences are fair and should be mentioned - dealers are not talking up preferences. They are plugging away google points for what makes them money.

PeterA · May 14, 2024

wil said:
That may be true, but a lot of people here are talking up their preferences constantly— not just dealers. Vintage, Horns, Digital, Analog…

Yes, of course. No issues with sharing opinions or that Brad and Ron are dealers. People can certainly express their opinions regardless of affiliations. It is just good to know that they may possibly, potentially, perhaps, maybe be slightly influenced by other interests. Are we not all biased to some extent?

Elliot G. · May 14, 2024

Verdier said:
O.k , no problem.

Zeiler !!

I will say this that my list , if I had one, has zero in common with the posted one.

morricab · May 14, 2024

Elliot G. said:
I will say this that my list , if I had one, has zero in common with the posted one.

Well Elliot...out with it! Too curious...

metei · May 14, 2024

Wadax Room;
Wadax was the star last year, they were almost in every room, at east the ones sounding best, but way expensive even for HE - Munich. This year they have returned with all-in-one system with a respectively reasonable price. The rest of the system was well curated. Room sounded very good. Was a good display that down-sizing from three big boxes of 100K+ to one box of 40K, they still do the same job.

Nagra Room - with Stenheim;
I am a big fan of Nagra sound. Still use the Nagra Classic DAC. I had loved Nagra room last year. This year Nagra room was a personal disappointment. Last year with Wilson they were single amped. This year they have bi-amped and switched to Stenheim. Didn't like the overall sound. It was king of shiny, ringing..

Acoustical Systems - Lyravox Room with CH Precision;
If I'm not mistaken, Acoustical systems was in the hall last year. Kind of engineering applied to every bit of the turntable design, "what if there was no limit to engineering" which is looking like becoming a market (Thorens, Esoteric etc.). The owner was saying even a bigger model (on the right) was to come (on top of the one on the left). Naturally they teamed up with no-limit-engineering electronics and speakers :]] Big, bold, strong sounding room.. If that's Your sound.

Linn Room;
One of the few brands to use the long wall. Sounded very good. Nothing bad, but nothing extra good. A system to listen to all day long, minus the passion.

CH Precision main Room - with Wilson;
I highly appreciate CH precision (at the front) and own P1 & L1 (with X1). I think their neutrality and managing "wire with gain" mentality (that everybody claims to but only CH achieves) leads to "lifeless, plain" music for ears used to the coloration, especially in the mid-bass area. This room was last year and was this year a reference point of what most natural sound would be. There was nothing wrong in the room but can't shake that feeling of "what is missing, can't put my finger on it but.."

Magico Room - with Pilium (and old Wadax :]);
Pilium again. This was also one of the most right sounding rooms. This is what I expect a system to sound like. Loved it..

McIntosh - Sonus Faber Room;
Unluck for MC - SF is the same as Linn. They are very good products, but sharing the same show with these other brands shadows their performances. I love Mc's. I've had many models, SS, tube, integrated, pre, power, mono.. But they always left their place to some other product later on. Never had Sonuf Fabers, they don't sing to me. This room was again sounding lovely but after and before those other rooms, it was slightly shadowed.

Innuos Room with Nagra, Gryphon and Kroma;
Innuos displayed and A/B/A'ed their Statement vs Zenith NG. If I was to, I would buy the Statement. They wanted to show NG was not short of Statement and was worth the price difference. Totally agree but if I was going there, would spend a little more for the Statement. As the guy said, more than better / worse, it was a taste issue but Statement was more open and lively sounding. But if Your budget only goes up to NG, You shouldn't worry, Your are not missing too much.
Also the rest of the system. I said, whatever You connect to Nagra HD Dac -> Gryphon to the speakers I hadn't even heard of Kroma's could sound magical. This room was one of my top rooms this year. I can even say that, Nagra and Gryphon sounded better than their own rooms here.

TBC..

morricab · May 14, 2024

metei said:
Wadax Room;
Wadax was the star last year, they were almost in every room, at east the ones sounding best, but way expensive even for HE - Munich. This year they have returned with all-in-one system with a respectively reasonable price. The rest of the system was well curated. Room sounded very good. Was a good display that down-sizing from three big boxes of 100K+ to one box of 40K, they still do the same job.
View attachment 131095

Nagra Room - with Stenheim;
I am a big fan of Nagra sound. Still use the Nagra Classic DAC. I had loved Nagra room last year. This year Nagra room was a personal disappointment. Last year with Wilson they were single amped. This year they have bi-amped and switched to Stenheim. Didn't like the overall sound. It was king of shiny, ringing..
View attachment 131096

Acoustical Systems - Lyravox Room with CH Precision;
If I'm not mistaken, Acoustical systems was in the hall last year. Kind of engineering applied to every bit of the turntable design, "what if there was no limit to engineering" which is looking like becoming a market (Thorens, Esoteric etc.). The owner was saying even a bigger model (on the right) was to come (on top of the one on the left). Naturally they teamed up with no-limit-engineering electronics and speakers :]] Big, bold, strong sounding room.. If that's Your sound.
View attachment 131097
View attachment 131098

Linn Room;
One of the few brands to use the long wall. Sounded very good. Nothing bad, but nothing extra good. A system to listen to all day long, minus the passion.
View attachment 131099

CH Precision main Room - with Wilson;
I highly appreciate CH precision (at the front) and own P1 & L1 (with X1). I think their neutrality and managing "wire with gain" mentality (that everybody claims to but only CH achieves) leads to "lifeless, plain" music for ears used to the coloration, especially in the mid-bass area. This room was last year and was this year a reference point of what most natural sound would be. There was nothing wrong in the room but can't shake that feeling of "what is missing, can't put my finger on it but.."
View attachment 131100
View attachment 131101

Magico Room - with Pilium (and old Wadax :]);
Pilium again. This was also one of the most right sounding rooms. This is what I expect a system to sound like. Loved it..
View attachment 131102

McIntosh - Sonus Faber Room;
Unluck for MC - SF is the same as Linn. They are very good products, but sharing the same show with these other brands shadows their performances. I love Mc's. I've had many models, SS, tube, integrated, pre, power, mono.. But they always left their place to some other product later on. Never had Sonuf Fabers, they don't sing to me. This room was again sounding lovely but after and before those other rooms, it was slightly shadowed.
View attachment 131103

Innuos Room with Nagra, Gryphon and Kroma;
Innuos displayed and A/B/A'ed their Statement vs Zenith NG. If I was to, I would buy the Statement. They wanted to show NG was not short of Statement and was worth the price difference. Totally agree but if I was going there, would spend a little more for the Statement. As the guy said, more than better / worse, it was a taste issue but Statement was more open and lively sounding. But if Your budget only goes up to NG, You shouldn't worry, Your are not missing too much.
Also the rest of the system. I said, whatever You connect to Nagra HD Dac -> Gryphon to the speakers I hadn't even heard of Kroma's could sound magical. This room was one of my top rooms this year. I can even say that, Nagra and Gryphon sounded better than their own rooms here.
View attachment 131104

TBC..

What was missing from the CH/Wilson room you ask...umm music was missing...music...

Lee · May 14, 2024

Any thoughts on the Vivid Moya speakers at the show?

Elliot G. · May 14, 2024

morricab said:
Well Elliot...out with it! Too curious...

read post 567. Thats what I felt that's what I said. You can read 525 as well.

Alrainbow · May 14, 2024

morricab said:
Did you hear Grandinote with analog or digital? There was a HUGE difference and analog was clearly inferior to the digital. Analog was thin and tipped up and bass shy, whereas the digital was bold and powerful with great presence and bass but not "hot" IMO.

Your correct digital and analog were very different
The analog I thought was more accurate
it was not weak and was a very stable image
there digital was more powerful sounding so had a better tone
the system is very well done so tone can be fixed I’m sure
I have videos both ways
it was as went to other rooms it made me go back and heard the top end more
but it’s a very good lively room.
what I did not hear was a solid low frequency that I could feel not just hear. This I think is why it seems to me be tipped up.
we as observers hear but knowing what’s correct is experience and not knowing leads me for one to wrong conclusions
take dipq a great sound for a panel but it’s low end is not there or it’s decay is too fast
and if you add subs to help they need to be very fast and not a servo type
Anyway it’s my opinion and im
Just an observer and make no claim to be an expert

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