top notch 4k projector

Zeotrope · Apr 30, 2023

henrich3 said:
I did upgrade the firmware to 2.0. Laser dimming mode 3 was added with that fw version, and the other two LD modes have picture quality issues.

I agree about high laser for HDR content. (My pj is calibrated with the color filter in place.) The increased fan noise in high laser mode can be bothersome, but I have my pj set back in a cubby which lowers the noise level.

The aperture in these models is manual. I liked the auto iris in my RS600, but unfortunately that feature's gone.

I'm very happy with my high gain screen. The gain is 2.4 if you wear the pj as a hat, but the further off axis that you get, the lower the gain. (Glass-beaded screens send light back to the light source.) I get around 2.0 gain with my setup. HDR and 3D content really benefit from a high gain screen, so I'm in no rush to replace it.

Let us know how you like your 25LTD. I'm sure that you'll be very pleased!

Thanks, a lot to learn here…
Do you like Laser Dimming Mode 3 best?
I will also use High Laser for HDR with the Wide Color Filter. There’s a wider color gamut in HDR for a reason, might as well try to see as much of it as possible.
I also have a Lumagen which outputs in SDR always, so it does the tone mapping.

henrich3 · Apr 30, 2023

Manni01 gave an excellent in-depth analysis of the laser dimming modes here -> (link).

My Radiance Pro was calibrated to output SDR for HDR content with my RS600 because that model didn't handle HDR very well, at least with the original fw. Since the new JVCs handle HDR in a more linear way, my RP has been calibrated to output HDR as HDR. Of course tone mapping done in the RP is better than what one can do in the JVC, but my calibrator didn't see a need to output HDR as SDR.

Zeotrope · Apr 30, 2023

henrich3 said:
Manni01 gave an excellent in-depth analysis of the laser dimming modes here -> (link).

My Radiance Pro was calibrated to output SDR for HDR content with my RS600 because that model didn't handle HDR very well, at least with the original fw. Since the new JVCs handle HDR in a more linear way, my RP has been calibrated to output HDR as HDR. Of course tone mapping done in the RP is better than what one can do in the JVC, but my calibrator didn't see a need to output HDR as SDR.

The Lumagen is still better at tone mapping, confirmed by Kris D. Unfortunately, some calibrators don’t have much experience with the Lumagen; not the more recent firmware that significantly improved DTM anyway. My calibrator was the same, preferring not to use the Lumagen for DTM. He was wrong. It’s easy enough to switch back; if you’re interested I can provide the steps.

henrich3 · Apr 30, 2023

Note that just because my RP is outputting HDR as HDR, that doesn't mean that the tone mapping isn't being optimized in my RP. It very much is. My calibrator, Craig Rounds, has extensive experience with Lumagen products, and he's done all my calibrations, including Lumagen video processors, since 2005. Craig spent 9 hours calibrating (ColorSpace) my RS4100 & Radiance Pro for SDR, HDR, and 3D. The image quality is every mode is superb, my quibble about the JVC's not quite perfect black levels aside.

Zeotrope · Apr 30, 2023

I missed that you’re still doing tone mapping in the Lumagen, sorry.
I don’t know what difference it makes to output HDR as HDR or as SDR from the Lumagen, since it’s not real HDR anyway.
Do you recall what reasons Craig gave to choose HDR output? My calibrator, who is ISF Certified and a JVC dealer, is coming in a few weeks and will let him know. He’s not a Lumagen expert, but knows everything else as good as anyone.

henrich3 · Apr 30, 2023

Back in olden days when my RS600 was new & dinosaurs roamed the earth, HDR was new, the JVC didn't handle tone mapping very well, and Craig was able to get a better calibration by outputting SDR to the pj. JVC's new projectors tone map HDR better however and recent versions of calibration tools (eg. ColourSpace) are able to deliver highly accurate results using the Radiance Pro (3D LUT) without remapping HDR to SDR. My calibrator may have been able to get comparable results outputting SDR from the RP, but there's no need to do that anymore.

https://www.lightillusion.com/hdr_calibration.html

henrich3 · Apr 30, 2023

Zeotrope said:
My calibrator, who is ISF Certified and a JVC dealer, is coming in a few weeks and will let him know. He’s not a Lumagen expert, but knows everything else as good as anyone.

Craig Rounds lives in Chicago but travels the country if you're interested -
https://www.cir-engineering.com/contact/

Craig has been calibrating Lumagen video processors for many, many years. He works closely with Lumagen and JVC. (Craig is a Lumagen dealer.) He uses high end meters & calibration software. He also owns an NZ9. If you're interested in hiring a master calibrator who knows both the RP and NZ9 inside & out, you might want to contact him about your calibration. I have no doubt that the results he can deliver far exceed what most calibrators can accomplish.

Zeotrope · May 1, 2023

henrich3 said:
Back in olden days when my RS600 was new & dinosaurs roamed the earth, HDR was new, the JVC didn't handle tone mapping very well, and Craig was able to get a better calibration by outputting SDR to the pj. JVC's new projectors tone map HDR better however and recent versions of calibration tools (eg. ColourSpace) are able to deliver highly accurate results using the Radiance Pro (3D LUT) without remapping HDR to SDR. My calibrator may have been able to get comparable results outputting SDR from the RP, but there's no need to do that anymore.

https://www.lightillusion.com/hdr_calibration.html

Thanks for the links.
A lot of what Manni01 says doesn't make sense; but it was informative to read his deep dive on the Laser dimming options nevertheless.

Regarding HDR output into the JVC - I don't think it makes a difference if you are using the Lumagen for tone-mapping. These projectors are not displaying true HDR anyway (they are not bright enough), so we are watching SDR regardless of what the projector thinks it's getting.

Zeotrope · May 1, 2023

Personally, I am not using laser dimming at all. I have a small screen with gain <1 and with a light controlled room there is sufficient contrast. All 3 modes are reducing contrast, it's not hard to detect the fluctuations as it changes the laser output level.
I'm a bit surprised that JVC removed the auto iris for the laser models.

henrich3 · May 1, 2023

I miss the auto iris. That part had failed on my RS600, which was what motivated me to upgrade to the RS4100. Perhaps the failure rate of that part & the high expense of replacing it had something to do with JVC's decision to just rely on laser dimming to achieve a high contrast ratio.

Here's Kris Deering's review of the NZ9, if you haven't already read it -
JVC DLA-NZ9 review

Zeotrope · May 1, 2023

Thanks, yes, I have read it. I agree it will make the Z series more reliable (although mine is still working after 2 years on the NX9). I don't think I will use laser dimming at all - none of the 3 modes seem to be better than not using it at all and closing the manual iris. What do you do in this regard?

henrich3 · May 1, 2023

HDR & 3D:
High laser, open aperture (0), LD mode 3
2D SDR:
High laser, aperture -8, LD mode 3

Regarding the LD modes, my high gain screen benefits from the improved FFTB that LD mode 3 provides. With your low gain screen, I can see why you might prefer to leave it off, especially if you also close down the aperture a bit.

The contrast ratio improves dramatically as you close down the aperture, as noted in the test bench chart in Deering's NZ9 review. If I pause a scene like the beginning of Lucy where Lucy's boyfriend is trying to convince her to deliver the package and then slowly close down the aperture, I find that even though the black level is dropping I miss the loss of brightness more than I enjoy the improved black level. While there are low APL movie scenes like a planet & stars against a black outer space background that would benefit from a more closed down aperture, I prefer the higher brightness of an open aperture in most other scenes. Personal preference.

LL21 · Jul 6, 2024

Zeotrope said:
Nice! I just installed the 25LTD which is essentially the same as the 4100/NZ9. I also have an NX9. JVC makes the best projectors today. Other than certain Christie models, there’s nothing better for the home (I used to be a ‘Sony man’ - no longer).
You definitely need High Laser for HDR, especially with the light output reduction from the color filter.
The lens in the “9” series is stunning - very very sharp, especially if you use a lot of lens shift.
Have you installed the latest firmware (2.0)? There were improvements made to laser dimming.
Question about the aperture - if you close it down manually, it will still close down further if auto dimming (“Dynamic CTRL”) is on, correct?

Your screen gain is 2.4, is that correct? Given that your screen size is not that big, and you have 3000 lumens at your disposal, you should consider getting a 1.0 gain screen. I have a 0.9 gain Stewart Grayhawk and blacks are stunning - they look totally black. My room is light controlled, but the walls are off-white.

We have a JVC DLA X700 (10 years old) that has developed a problem receiving signals properly...no image. Not sure whether to seek repair of the input board...or just buy another projector. Our options and would appreciate your thoughts:

1. Repair DLA X700...not sure whether that is nice quick fix for 5 years or good money after bad ($1.5K+/-?)
2. Buy new JVC DLA N27 ($9K)
3. Buy trade-in from dealer Sony VW890ES (retail $25K asking $5K) with 1 year Sony Warranty. ( It did apparently go back for repair, and the dealer said owner has upgraded to the latest flagship.)

Zeotrope · Jul 6, 2024

LL21 said:
We have a JVC DLA X700 (10 years old) that has developed a problem receiving signals properly...no image. Not sure whether to seek repair of the input board...or just buy another projector. Our options and would appreciate your thoughts:

1. Repair DLA X700...not sure whether that is nice quick fix for 5 years or good money after bad ($1.5K+/-?)
2. Buy new JVC DLA N27 ($9K)
3. Buy trade-in from dealer Sony VW890ES (retail $25K asking $5K) with 1 year Sony Warranty. ( It did apparently go back for repair, and the dealer said owner has upgraded to the latest flagship.)

If you intend to keep the projector another 5+ years, I would stay away from the Sony.
#2 if that’s the best price would be my option.

LL21 · Jul 7, 2024

Thank you! Very helpful. Regarding JVC, for a 2.5m-3m screen do you think there is a big difference between just the pure image quality of the N27 and the much more expensive NZ9. While an audiophile, not a videophile...the current DILA X700 of 10 years ago looks amazing to our eyes.

Zeotrope · Jul 7, 2024

LL21 said:
Thank you! Very helpful. Regarding JVC, for a 2.5m-3m screen do you think there is a big difference between just the pure image quality of the N27 and the much more expensive NZ9. While an audiophile, not a videophile...the current DILA X700 of 10 years ago looks amazing to our eyes.

I also have a 100” diag screen, so not huge. I would say not to look at the NZ9 side by side with an NZ7, and get the NZ7. I’m sure you will be very impressed by the image quality compared to the X700.
Where I think the better lens of the NZ9 is more noticeable is if you need to use lens shift. But I have never compared the two side by side.

audioguy3107 · Jul 7, 2024

Zeotrope said:
I also have a 100” diag screen, so not huge. I would say not to look at the NZ9 side by side with an NZ7, and get the NZ7. I’m sure you will be very impressed by the image quality compared to the X700.
Where I think the better lens of the NZ9 is more noticeable is if you need to use lens shift. But I have never compared the two side by side.

Good advice here. I was in a similar situation, I was a JVC X790 owner for about 4 years and debated the last move for awhile. I decided to go with an NZ7. I currently have a 115" scope screen and the NZ 7's picture quality is miles above what the x790 offered. The 4K eshift on the x790 did an admirable job, but native 4K HDR through the 8K eshift on the NZ7 is far and away much better. I never compared the NZ7 and NZ9 side by side, but all the reading I did on AVS forum as well as reviews pushed me in the direction of the NZ7. The general consensus I read was that unless you are an avid videophile (like we all are audiophiles on here), the NZ9's picture quality wasn't necessarily worth the price difference to the average home theater user.

- Buck

LL21 · Jul 7, 2024

Zeotrope said:
audioguy3107 said:

Good advice here. I was in a similar situation, I was a JVC X790 owner for about 4 years and debated the last move for awhile. I decided to go with an NZ7. I currently have a 115" scope screen and the NZ 7's picture quality is miles above what the x790 offered. The 4K eshift on the x790 did an admirable job, but native 4K HDR through the 8K eshift on the NZ7 is far and away much better. I never compared the NZ7 and NZ9 side by side, but all the reading I did on AVS forum as well as reviews pushed me in the direction of the NZ7. The general consensus I read was that unless you are an avid videophile (like we all are audiophiles on here), the NZ9's picture quality wasn't necessarily worth the price difference to the average home theater user.

- Buck

Click to expand...

Zeotrope said:

I also have a 100” diag screen, so not huge. I would say not to look at the NZ9 side by side with an NZ7, and get the NZ7. I’m sure you will be very impressed by the image quality compared to the X700.
Where I think the better lens of the NZ9 is more noticeable is if you need to use lens shift. But I have never compared the two side by side.

Click to expand...

Thank you both! Sounds like the right choice for us. Now, of course, if I can figure out how to fix the X700 by myself (I have an idea), that would be ideal. But if not, we will go N27.

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