Tube rolling in Incito S?

oldmustang · Jun 21, 2024

Hello,

I am familiar with this post from the Kassandra thread:

(Begin quote)

https://www.whatsbestforum.com/threads/kassandra-ii-ref-e280f-options.36740/post-873427

List below is type, brand(usual ones but not all of them), recommended bias range(not necessarily hard limits ) and subjective range(depending on brand/batch)

E280F, Siemens, Mullard,Phillips, Tele -200/-280 1~10
E180F Mullard Phillips, -170/250 1~5
E810F Siemens, Phillips, Mullard -220/-330 1-8
6j11p Russian various -190/-300 1-8 !
D3A Siemens -180/-270 1-4

There are some more types, but these can keep you occupied for a lifetime

The E810F is now standard in the recent units going to US/Canada side. The E810F goes quite well with the Kass and the Ianus range.
The 6j11p you can get them in the dozens easily and easily last quite some years.
Do not underestimate the E280F's life time, i tell our users to not change it until it dies. This tube gets better as it ages.Do not change if it is working on. We had an amp playing 7.5 years (daily use) with the original tubes installed.Some dies earlier but we have a lot of units playing for many years with their original tubes.

(End quote)

Same advice for Incito S?

I have done a brief experiment with a pair of inexpensive GE JAN 6688 (same as E180F) and like the result better than with the stock E280F tubes. I found the stock E280F to be a touch edgy and forward, and ultimately a bit fatiguing though with superb recordings the results could be thrilling. However, not all the music I listen to ranks in the "superb" category when it comes to production values.

The 6688/E180F offers a touch more forgiveness for less than perfect digital recordings and an even more expansive and 3D portrayal, while retaining the AC awesome dynamics and clarity.

Any further advice? Anyone want to disclose their favorite tube combos? It strikes me that while the JJ 5AR4 is good, there are others out there that might bring a little more to the party.

Thanks in advance!

Steve Z

nonesup · Jun 21, 2024

Well, you already stimulated my curiosity, so I just bought two Mullard E180Fs. We'll see what they are like.

Argonaut · Jun 21, 2024

nonesup said:
so I just bought two Mullard E180Fs.

Looking forward to your considerations , are you presently running with Siemens E280F’s ?

nonesup · Jun 21, 2024

Yes that is

oldmustang · Jun 21, 2024

nonesup said:
Yes that is

I hope I didn't raise your expectations too much, Francisco. The E280Fs that I'm comparing to aren't Siemens, they are "Mullards" labeled "Foreign made". Maybe Chinese?

Still, I'm interested in what you hear.

Thanks,

Steve Z

nonesup · Jun 21, 2024

Well, fortunately the price is not excessive for the fun of trying them.

oldmustang · Jun 26, 2024

From left to right, GE JAN 6688 (E180F), Siemens E280F, Amperex 7788 (E810F) PQ.

Still evaluating but it's nice to have choices.

Steve Z

oldmustang · Jun 27, 2024

I really, really like the Amperex PQ 7788/E810Fs in the Incito S. All the transparency and clarity with even more mid- and low-bass weight and heft and lots of low level detail and texture throughout. I adjusted the bias to the minimum value recommended by Stavros -- 220 and haven't played with nudging the bias up yet.

Today's haul:

A pair of Philips Holland SQ Miniwatt E180F and a nice NOS GE copper-plate 5AR4, which just went into the Incito S to get a few hours on before sitting down to listen later this afternoon.

Steve Z

Argonaut · Jun 27, 2024

oldmustang said:
I hope I didn't raise your expectations too much, Francisco. The E280Fs that I'm comparing to aren't Siemens, they are "Mullards" labeled "Foreign made". Maybe Chinese?

Still, I'm interested in what you hear.

Thanks,

Steve Z

To Mullard , back in the day , an E280F Re-Branded Mullard ‘Foreign made’ would equate to manufactured either in Holland or Germany, occasionally you will find Amperex ‘made in USA’ re - branded also .

Aries Cerat · Jun 29, 2024

oldmustang said:
I really, really like the Amperex PQ 7788/E810Fs in the Incito S. All the transparency and clarity with even more mid- and low-bass weight and heft and lots of low level detail and texture throughout. I adjusted the bias to the minimum value recommended by Stavros -- 220 and haven't played with nudging the bias up yet.

Today's haul:

View attachment 133152

A pair of Philips Holland SQ Miniwatt E180F and a nice NOS GE copper-plate 5AR4, which just went into the Incito S to get a few hours on before sitting down to listen later this afternoon.

Steve Z

Hi

Usually the E810F(7788) run richer, try a bit higher bias and see what it does for you( -240~260).
The E180F is the opposite, bias them lower than the E280F to wake them up.

Best
S

oldmustang · Jul 5, 2024

Aries Cerat said:
Hi

Usually the E810F(7788) run richer, try a bit higher bias and see what it does for you( -240~260).
The E180F is the opposite, bias them lower than the E280F to wake them up.

Best
S

Thanks very much for the guidance. I'm really loving the flexibility of the Incito S design which allows margin for tailoring the sound quality a bit to match ones system and taste, while never straying far from its roots.

I found your suggestion to try higher bias for the E810F/7788 to be spot on and I ended up leaving it at 240 after trying the range.

I also found out that choice of rectifier tube can have an effect. The JJ that came with the Incito S is quite good, but substituting a GE copper-plate was immediately audible in a good way. Based on that I thought I'd try an early Mullard wide-base 5AR4. Also a notable improvement.

Steve Z

Alex G · Jul 7, 2024

So @oldmustang what is your favorite so far? And where do you get your tubes? Emailed Stavros but I might try a few things.

oldmustang · Jul 7, 2024

Alex G said:
So @oldmustang what is your favorite so far? And where do you get your tubes? Emailed Stavros but I might try a few things.

So far I like the combo of early Amperex PQ gold-pin E810F at a bias setting of 240 and the Mullard fat-base 5AR4 the best. I'd say Siemens E280F next and then the E180F, though I haven't gone back and re-listened with the E280F or E180F since putting the Mullard fat-base 5AR4 in.

You're asking me to give up my secret fishing holes on a public forum?

I can tell you that there are some good eBay sellers with "Top Rate Plus" status who allow returns, will replace tubes that arrive damaged or defective, and whose prices are not ridiculously high. I did a search on each type tube and was able to quickly narrow down the field.

If you don't mind paying the prices, Brent Jesse Recording and Andy at VTS are two other options.

Steve Z

Alex G · Jul 7, 2024

oldmustang said:
So far I like the combo of early Amperex PQ gold-pin E810F at a bias setting of 240 and the Mullard fat-base 5AR4 the best. I'd say Siemens E280F next and then the E180F, though I haven't gone back and re-listened with the E280F or E180F since putting the Mullard fat-base 5AR4 in.

You're asking me to give up my secret fishing holes on a public forum?

I can tell you that there are some good eBay sellers with "Top Rate Plus" status who allow returns, will replace tubes that arrive damaged or defective, and whose prices are not ridiculously high. I did a search on each type tube and was able to quickly narrow down the field.

If you don't mind paying the prices, Brent Jesse Recording and Andy at VTS are two other options.

Steve Z

Haha. Thanks Steve! I’m so glad you’re on this journey.

I thought you could DM me the secret fishing hole part

. FWIW, the eBay approach is mostly the way I’ve gone and occasionally Brent Jesse. I did have some luck w a handful of european vendors like him as well. I just don’t want to mess around w AC gear and iffy tubes. It’s probably all fine tho.

Bobofei86 · Jul 9, 2024

Just ordered E810F to try and love to hear it increase the mid low weight

Since day 1 I replaced the JJ to Philips metal based GZ34 which gives better resolution and more balanced tone in my system, didn’t try other rectifier and I may give Millard Hammond 5AR4 a try when E810F arrived

orfeo_monteverdi · Jul 25, 2024

[please forgive my poor English]

This is tube rolling, big time!
Instead of 280F tubes, why not try a quite different approach? I heard Cypriot soprano Mariza Anastasiades (website) a few days ago in Brussels. Lovely person, lovely voice & guitar recital (Spanish melodies, song by Barbara Strozzi, etc). Accompanied by guitarist Socrates Leptos.

She is from Limassol, Cyprus, the headquarter of Aries Cerat !!
I asked her if she heard about Stavros Danos (who knows...). She "thinks she has already heard that name, but not sure", she said [not sure, of course: she hasn't been in Munich...]. For sure both did not know Aries Cerat. I told her and Socrates that Aries Cerat builds nice hifi equipment (you know, like Sony and Philips, but better...).

Did Stavros or AC team members ever heard of Mariza Anastasiades?

Mariza Anastasiades and Socrates Leptos, PhD.

Bobofei86 · Aug 4, 2024

@oldmustang just replaced to PQ 7788 and it’s more resolution and clarity than the Siemens 280f, but the bass became tighter and less engaging as 280f, may I know how long it takes to run in? Assume it will become more resolving after the burn in period, I’m using Philips metal base gz34 and order the Mullard fat base gz34 which take few weeks to deliver

oldmustang · Aug 4, 2024

Bobofei86 said:
@oldmustang just replaced to PQ 7788 and it’s more resolution and clarity than the Siemens 280f, but the bass became tighter and less engaging as 280f, may I know how long it takes to run in? Assume it will become more resolving after the burn in period, I’m using Philips metal base gz34 and order the Mullard fat base gz34 which take few weeks to deliver

I didn't note any less engagement with bass using 7788/E810F, but then I have six subwoofers. . .

I'm very interested in learning what you hear with the substitution of a Mullard fat-base rectifier for the Philips metal base. The metal-base rectifiers, both Philips and Mullard (aka nickel base) are quite a bit rarer and command prices to match. More than a couple on-line tube sellers claim the metal base rectifiers are superior. It will be an interesting comparison.

It doesn't take long to run in the tubes in my experience. Maybe 24 hours of play, if that.

Thank you for trying this.

Steve Z

Bobofei86 · Aug 5, 2024

Let me report it back to you after I got the fatbase gz34, I replace it from day 1 which i think it offers more resolution and clarity when compare with the stock JJ, there is a very good synergy with the Siemens which I prefer the Siemens plus metal base combo more than the 7788 with the metal base

Aries Cerat · Aug 6, 2024

Bobofei86 said:
@oldmustang just replaced to PQ 7788 and it’s more resolution and clarity than the Siemens 280f, but the bass became tighter and less engaging as 280f, may I know how long it takes to run in? Assume it will become more resolving after the burn in period, I’m using Philips metal base gz34 and order the Mullard fat base gz34 which take few weeks to deliver

Hi

Do try fiddling with bias , as the 7788 would definitely not have same sweet spot as the 280,

Have this in mind whenever you tube roll, even with same type tube.

Best
Stavros

Tube rolling in Incito S?

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