No, you use your ears and listen ! Buy or sell as many fancy gadgets as you want if you cannot hear the difference between settings, it does not matter anyway. Now we are done !
Analog Magik
- Thread starter Tirebiter
- Start date
It seems VTA/SRA have the most deviations of all geometric and mechanical tolerances and standards. For many years, there was a 5 degree difference in VMA between US and Europe.
On the good side, VTA doesn't have at all as big impact as zenith and azimuth for several reasons; the amplitudes for vertical modulation is never as high, the most important audio (voices, soloists) is normally centered (i.e. no vertical modulation) and normally bass below 100Hz is summed in a stereomix.
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Sorry, can you explain how you do for example a zenith adjustment with your ears?
In my experience, you may hear the error, but you see it on a scope long before you can pinpoint what the error is. Usually it's never just one error but at least 4-5 combined errors.
To know how to individually adjust 4-5 parameters on a cartridge just by hearing must very hard, not to say impossible.
We have been setting up cartridges and arms for about a century without scopes fancy gadgets and special tools. Use what comes with your arm to set overhang, then a middle setting of recommended VTF, set azimuth visually and listen for best channel separation, then start dialing in the VTA, with a little patience, you will get there if you cartridge i made decently. Zenith/azimuth error seems to have become a big problem only after older reviewers have started loosing their hearing and have started promoted tools and microscopes to set this by measuring
Thanks for reply.We have been setting up cartridges and arms for about a century without scopes fancy gadgets and special tools. Use what comes with your arm to set overhang, then a middle setting of recommended VTF, set azimuth visually and listen for best channel separation, then start dialing in the VTA, with a little patience, you will get there if you cartridge i made decently. Zenith/azimuth error seems to have become a big problem only after older reviewers have started loosing their hearing and have started promoted tools and microscopes to set this by measuring
I appreciate what you express, but there's a point in modern cartridge design, and now I mean what we've seen the last 10-15 years, that you don't really hear the potential until you hear it. And in my experience it's very difficult to find that unless you are very methodical.
It's quite logical when you think abvout it, we deal with micrometers of movements.
In my opinion, if you care to spend a lot of $$ on a cartridge, the templates and tools used in the days are just too coarse for the modern vinyl playback.
What is it about “modern cartridge design” which makes alignmrent more important than with prior designs?
The funny thing is, modern diamond cutting has improved, but vinyl manufacturing has just gotten worse, most of those 180 g audiophile records are bent and twisted and no cartridge adjusting is going to make them play right. A Ortofon Replica, MR or Van Den Hull cut need better adjustments than conical cuts, but most are made to specs and will work well with conventional templates.
You see a lot of it in your Ortofon MC Anna Diamond. It's not really possible to mount that with templates only to utilize its potential.
We can go into other details as well, but it's no use if we don't agree on the necessity to use other tools than templates and ears in order to utilize these potentials.
It's fundamental to me.
We need to keep telling the manufacturers that.
I talked to several european record plants, I think that's a good way.
I also believe it helps to promote good records, which is done here and elsewhere.
I own and use Analog Magik as one of my tools so we have that in common. I am just trying to understand why modern cartridges require this more than older ones. I don't see why all cartridges wouldn't benefit from other tools.
In my opinion they do. But not so much as for a modern design. Some examples;
- If the width of the stylus contact parallel to the groove is 50µm it isn't as meaningful to try to minimize phase error because you would have significant tracing distorsion anyway. Whereas if the width is 3µm and the contact surface is more of a line than a blotch in the groove section, it makes sense to try to get that line orthogonal to the groove.
- The materials and design of the suspension, damping, cantilever stiffness and stylus effective mass enables true decoding with some modern cartridges, where the high frequency system resonance and scanning loss is above the audio range.
- The physical wavelength of 10kHz at the outer nullpoint is 40µm. The dynamic behaviour of the stylus and motor in order to read such modulations correctly is quite demanding. Cartride designers have improved both the contact mechanics and the control of the motion for many years and still do, and MC Anna Diamond is one example on what can be achieved today.
- The characteristic "double hump" in the dynamic behaviour has been moved from 4-5kHz in the 50's to above 20kHz today, and typical scanning loss has gone from significant (3-6dB @10kHz) in a 60's cartridge to virtually nothing in a modern design.
- Modern tonearms enable adjustments of both angles and forces in very fine increments, which means it is possible to do these adjustments in a controlled manner.
I don't have AnalogMagik so it seems I better not post in this thread.
Why disregard the 60hz,? it is part of the 60:7000hz IMD test signal…. And supposed to be there ,right?
Probably not. Probably 60Hz hum from the power supply of the capture device or phono.
That would be a massive 60hz hum... But the FFT display states F1 60hz and F2 7khz, and F1 higher in amplitude than F2, To do an intermodulation test TWO sinus signals are required, and often F1 is 12Db higher in amplitude than. F2, - just as the diplay states- so that those F1 F2 really looks like a IMD test signal. If F1=60 is not part of the IMD test signal what other is the F1?
I see some other signals at about 950? and 1050? hz, I suspect those are the “ simultaneous “crosstalk” L and R , since the level is different, The IMD from L channel signal and R channel crosstalk can explain the 2000hz as an intermodulation sum product. But that would be a surprising way to do a IMD test.
The side bands at 2000 hz can be the 2 harmonic of the 950/1050 hz. And the third at around 3000.
The side bands around 7khz can be the intermodulation sum and difference from 950/1050.
Looking at the peak at ca 88hz it could maybe be the be the difference IMD 1050-950 if the values where 956 and 1044.. And the peaks at 120/240/300 are the harmonics from 60hz..
If the 60hz I present in other screen captures from other systems we could better judge if the 60hz is a test system disturbance or a real signal .
AM is an intriguing software and probably do things /analyses beyond my imagination , but interesting to try to understand what is going on. I consider buying one Analog Magic, when I get rich..
EDIT: post 317 shows the VTA IMD track taken from the AM developers facebook, and is show a high 60Hz peak too , not likely that that is Hum too, so I conclude that the IMD signal is 60:7000 Hz in 4:1 ratio.
..
I see some other signals at about 950? and 1050? hz, I suspect those are the “ simultaneous “crosstalk” L and R , since the level is different, The IMD from L channel signal and R channel crosstalk can explain the 2000hz as an intermodulation sum product. But that would be a surprising way to do a IMD test.
The side bands at 2000 hz can be the 2 harmonic of the 950/1050 hz. And the third at around 3000.
The side bands around 7khz can be the intermodulation sum and difference from 950/1050.
Looking at the peak at ca 88hz it could maybe be the be the difference IMD 1050-950 if the values where 956 and 1044.. And the peaks at 120/240/300 are the harmonics from 60hz..
If the 60hz I present in other screen captures from other systems we could better judge if the 60hz is a test system disturbance or a real signal .
AM is an intriguing software and probably do things /analyses beyond my imagination , but interesting to try to understand what is going on. I consider buying one Analog Magic, when I get rich..
EDIT: post 317 shows the VTA IMD track taken from the AM developers facebook, and is show a high 60Hz peak too , not likely that that is Hum too, so I conclude that the IMD signal is 60:7000 Hz in 4:1 ratio.
..
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Yes Crosstalk is depending on the record ,
You have to find one you believe in and that fits your average music record , easier said than done. Here I compared some of mine test records. Ortofon on considered to be good, even if I did not get the best values on that when I did the table below, since then I managed to get -32/-31 on the Ortofon and -35/-36 on some other records.
If you use RIAA or do not filter low end rubbish the values will be worse.
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Please allow a question,
This AM Azimuth L/R VTA test track seem to be a combined track, Both LEFT RIGHT balance, crosstalk and IMD, and to do crosstalk I would assume a 45/45 stereo groove is required, so can the track with all these signals really be horizontal modulated. .?
I would think that VTA should be done with vertical (out of phase) modulation, and Zenith error should be by lateral mono ( in phase) . Maybe 45 degree stereo groove is a compromise that work for all 3 targets, Azimuth/crosstalk, Zenith, and VTA?
But I never get a reasonable VTA result with the AP ultimate VTA track( High IMD not reacting to 10mm arm level difference), which is in stereo and NOT vertically modulated.
Addendum:
I suspect my Zenith error to be off.. and may obscure things, but I tried max clockwise and c-clockwise turn .. and mid without any conclusive results , using AP Ultimate test record , and some others too. Azimuth is very good….cartridges are MicriRidge
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By following the Analog Magik numbers I was able to achieve a perfect balance of the L/R azimuth. But...
The problem is that this is only achieved at the expense of a visible tilt of the headshell to one side, which easily exceeds 2 degrees or more.
This is not an isolated case. This occurred with all four of my cartridges. Both versions of the Analog Magik were used.
Obviously I stopped using the Analog Magik for this function, as I do not want to ruin my cartridges.
The problem is that this is only achieved at the expense of a visible tilt of the headshell to one side, which easily exceeds 2 degrees or more.
This is not an isolated case. This occurred with all four of my cartridges. Both versions of the Analog Magik were used.
Obviously I stopped using the Analog Magik for this function, as I do not want to ruin my cartridges.
2 degree error is less than the 3-5 degree tolerance, but I fully understand your concern when all 4 cartridges goes in the same direction..
I use the Ortofon test record to set Azimuth and then get good results on some other test records too, notably the DIN records and Toshiba and Denon
Sometime I get quite a big tilt too, I sent this back due to SRA error of 8-10 degrees, …Electronically best Azimuth X-talk at the left. I think as long as the Azimuth angle is not more than 2 degrees off we could in fact be happy about it…Aligned with Ortofon test record which I trust. I think the generator of the cartridge was off also in this case
I use the Ortofon test record to set Azimuth and then get good results on some other test records too, notably the DIN records and Toshiba and Denon
Sometime I get quite a big tilt too, I sent this back due to SRA error of 8-10 degrees, …Electronically best Azimuth X-talk at the left. I think as long as the Azimuth angle is not more than 2 degrees off we could in fact be happy about it…Aligned with Ortofon test record which I trust. I think the generator of the cartridge was off also in this case
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I didn't actually measure the tilt, it might be even greater than that. However, it is visible to the naked eye.
I will soon send a photo of my cartridge aligned by Analogmagik.
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