2020 Bi-Wiring ... & Bi-Amping // Benefits and Demerits ...?

[NorthStar]

Roughly two months away from the year 2020, loudspeaker's manufacturers will still offer two and three pairs of speaker's binding posts. It's inevitable. And I mean many manufacturers, including the best and also the ones with a strong scientific pedigree.

Most speakers (majority by a large margin) offering more than one set of binding posts are the passive type (crossovers). It is in this general aspect that I'm most interested in the discussion, but I do welcome pushing the envelope over the boundaries (active separate crossovers) as it benefits our knowledge advancement, to all.

Are most manufacturers offering them so that they can satisfy audio cable manufacturers, or are the speaker's manufacturers have a solid reason to offer them for the benefits on sound quality that they observed and measured? Also, if you bi-amplified them it's good for amplifer's manufacturers.

Some of the members here have loudspeakers larger than their stainless steel refrigerators (double doors). Yet those fridges (from my knowledge) offer only one set of AC power cord. This is slight humor in just case.

Anyway, here are two short links; the first a short blog discussion on Bi-wiring, and the second a short article on the same subject. My main interest here is Bi-Wiring, but it's impossible to not also include Bi-Amping, so both options are certainly welcome in the discussion @ the edge of the year 2020.
Also, as I've already said above; my main emphasis is on passive x-overs, but I sure won't object from further learnings on active x-overs. I said "main emphasis" because most speakers are from the passive x-over types.
And active speakers, with their own internal separate amps for the low and high frequencies are specifically build with active crossovers. Am I right in that assessment, or it varies?
_____

? https://www.stereophile.com/content/biwiring-1

? https://www.qacoustics.co.uk/blog/2016/06/08/bi-wiring-speakers-exploration-benefits/

In search (exploration) to higher grounds ...

 

[DonH50]

Kal has said dealers asked for bi-wiring terminals to sell more cable.

This is the sort of debate that never seems to lead anywhere. There is a short overview here: https://www.whatsbestforum.com/threads/passive-bi-amping.5186/#post-76600

Bi-wiring and bi-amping are different configurations:

• Bi-wiring uses an extra set of wires to separate the treble and bass portions of the signal current from the same amplifier. The idea is the wire provides isolation among drivers to prevent back-emf (at least that is what I've usually read). That only makes sense if the amplifier's output impedance is very low (usually is) and wire impedance high (usually not, and you usually don't want it to be). There are better ways to isolate than using wires.
  • If the wire gauge is too small, buy bigger wire (lower AWG number) or parallel wires (leaving the speaker jumpers in place).
  • If the amplifier's output impedance is too high, then you'll need to buy an amplifier with lower output impedance.
• Bi-amping falls into two categories these days, so-called "passive" implemented by many AVRs, and active using line level crossovers (which can actually be active or passive) before the amplifiers. Both require bass and treble amplifiers. See the previous link.
  • Passive bi-amping sends the same signal to both amplifiers and relies on the passive crossover in the speaker to separate highs from lows. No amplifier (voltage) headroom is gained since both amps see the same input signal. This does isolate the tweeter from the woofer so if back-EMF really is a problem (I strongly suspect not) then this would help.
  • Active bi-amping sends low signals to the bass amp and high signals to the treble amp. No crossover is needed (and should not be included) in the speakers themselves. To the extent that more or less power is needed for each frequency band (e.g. bass may require much more power than treble) you can gain amplifier headroom or use a smaller (lower-power) treble amplifier. Many pro systems are designed this way.
  • However you do it, bi-amping does not double the power if you use two of the same amp. Superposition does not work for power. If you use two 100 W amplifiers, each frequency band can only see a maximum of 100 W, so there is nothing that provides 200 W to a driver.

I bi-amped actively many years both for sound reinforcement and at home. I have run wires in parallel when I felt the zip cord I had around wasn't big enough for the job but have never bi-wired except by accident. Passive bi-amping the AVR way does not seem like it would provide any real-world benefit.

FWIWFM - Don

 

[NorthStar]

Yes, Kal Rubinson has said that from few speaker's dealers.
And I believe Kal is also bi-wiring his speakers (some)?

I looked @ some enormous loudspeakers and I'm thinking those would need some serious amplification, like more than two monos ...

Also, the second link from my original first post; I gave it some serious consideration.

* Are there existing measurements between single-wiring and bi-wiring, including the audio signals return to the amplifiers in both cases with their merits and demerits?

Most loudspeakers offer two or even three pairs of speaker's binding posts, including JBL, Infinity, Revel, ...etc. speakers. ...For bi-wiring/bi-amping, tri-wiring/tri-amping.
I know; it's to sell more speaker wires...

Magico, Wilson Audio, Rockport Technologies, Genesis Loudspeakers, Gryphon Audio, ...all the serious speaker's designs ... they all want to sell more audio cables too?

Is this a false trend or like in that link number 2 above there's real benefit to be added by bi-wiring our loudspeakers? ...Ever so slightly it might be.

* Bi-Wiring is first the one I'm mostly interested, because everyone has extra speaker cables in their drawers, and two you don't need to buy extra amplification for speakers smaller than a refrigerator.

And the new kids on the block would love to know with certitude because today you can buy a roll of speaker wires for cheap (12A gauge - 100 feet), good for bi and tri-wiring.

Are we paying extra for nothing by having more that one set of binding posts behind our speakers? It's counterintuitive if yes; it loses some true audiophile essence if yes.

** Don, did you read that 2nd link, in full?
EMF ... is that important or not?

 

[DonH50]

IMO manufacturers do it because they have to because the market demands it (not engineering). It has become a selling point and audiophiles expect it.

The second link has been debunked extensively and I did not feel it worthwhile to do it again. Current is split in the wires, true, but not at the amplifier and that is where it really matters. They are also playing games with things to make their case but it doesn't jive with what I know of practical engineering physics. Chances are nobody here wants to read a bunch of technical counter arguments. To me it reads like another of those marketing pieces that misapplies the science to increase sales.

EMF important, debatable in this context. It is certainly a real effect but whether bi-wiring will help I question since the amplifier's impedance or load it sees do not change and that is where modulation will occur. If the wires have high enough impedance (resistance) to provide isolation that means the amplifier cannot control the speaker either so higher distortion results. I'd rather match amp to speakers with sufficient gauge wire that it is not influencing the sound.

 

[NorthStar]

Could you please give me the very top best links (scientific) on Bi-Wiring? T'YIA

 

[BlueFox]

Magico, Wilson Audio, Rockport Technologies, Genesis Loudspeakers, Gryphon Audio, ...all the serious speaker's designs ... they all want to sell more audio cables too?

Can’t comment on any Magico lines other than the S model, and they can’t be biwired. They only have one set of speaker connectors.

 

[NorthStar]

Can’t comment on any Magico lines other than the S model, and they can’t be biwired. They only have one set of speaker connectors.

Ok, that sounds like a smart design; simple and they don't see any real benefits in offering more than one set of binding posts.

It looks like it's the same for all M, Q, S & A series.
• https://www.magicoaudio.com/

I saw only one set of binding posts on all of them; makes life easier, simpler, no muss no fuss.

 

[Kal Rubinson]

Yes, Kal Rubinson has said that from few speaker's dealers.
And I believe Kal is also bi-wiring his speakers (some)?

Yes, I did for some years but I am not doing it now. This is not an apology because I do not believe that there is any disadvantage to bi-wiring.

 

[NorthStar]

You put it smartly Kal.

"...because I do not believe that there is any disadvantage to bi-wiring."

 

[DaveC]

Bi wiring can be helpful to adjust the character of the speaker, the biggest reason is that often people enjoy a warmer cable for woofer applications and a clearer cable for the mids and highs. Clean bass is often perceived as lean bass, most people want some amount of warmth and grain in the woofer.

An example is the Harmonic Tech UPOCC copper speaker cables I carry for semi-budget, high-value cables. The Pro-11 is designed to be a woofer cable and the Pro-13 is designed for mids/highs, and the design is different as a result.

Also, not all crossovers are able to be bi-wired. only parallel type. I'm not sure if anyone actually uses a series type crossover, but I have seen it before. If a speaker uses a parallel crossover and is not biwireable, that only means the manufacturer has removed that option for whatever reason. They have chosen to include jumpers internally that go from the binding posts to the crossover inputs.

 

[steve williams]

Magico, Wilson Audio, Rockport Technologies, Genesis Loudspeakers, Gryphon Audio, ...all the serious speaker's designs ... they all want to sell more audio cables too?

you can't biwire Wilsons as you'd bypass the crossover and could take out a resistor or worse a driver

 

[microstrip]

Could you please give me the very top best links (scientific) on Bi-Wiring? T'YIA

Scientific on bi-wiring? We do not even have any scientific on single wiring differences !!!

Remember that scientists will tell us that a corroded copper wire should sound the same as a shiny wire as long as the resistance is the same.

 

[microstrip]

Bi wiring can be helpful to adjust the character of the speaker, the biggest reason is that often people enjoy a warmer cable for woofer applications and a clearer cable for the mids and highs. Clean bass is often perceived as lean bass, most people want some amount of warmth and grain in the woofer. (...)

Yes, I still have in my drawers a pair of the now vintage Audioquest Sterling 3 using 8 pairs of copper and 8 pairs of silver solid wire. At that time we would group them in two sets for bi-wire selecting the number and type of wires according to the desired sound balance.

 

[Kal Rubinson]

Yes, I still have in my drawers a pair of the now vintage Audioquest Sterling 3 using 8 pairs of copper and 8 pairs of silver solid wire.

You must walk funny.

 

[Kal Rubinson]

Magico, Wilson Audio, Rockport Technologies, Genesis Loudspeakers, Gryphon Audio, ...all the serious speaker's designs ... they all want to sell more audio cables too?

This is not an accusation. I have no first-hand knowledge of what these companies say or believe but I am sure that they all want to have good relationships with their dealers, too.

 

[NorthStar]

I just looked @ Wilson Audio loudspeakers; those too are normal (along with Magico)...only one set of binding posts. "Normal" as one pair of quality speaker cables would suffice for both (stereo).

This one has three pairs of binding posts ... for tri-amping ...
• https://www.stereophile.com/content/sonus-faber-aida-loudspeaker-page-2

 

[DaveC]

Yes, I still have in my drawers a pair of the now vintage Audioquest Sterling 3 using 8 pairs of copper and 8 pairs of silver solid wire. At that time we would group them in two sets for bi-wire selecting the number and type of wires according to the desired sound balance.

Interesting! I can see that approach working well for some folks.

--- More Thoughts---

Not too many speaker cables seem to be offered in multiple gauges, with a trend toward excessive gauge by many cable companies. Quite a few speaker manufacturers seem to be going with a single pair of binding posts as well, and these companies often show together and want compatible gear, so my observation is the industry is getting away from bi-wiring despite the conspiracy theory to the contrary.

As far as what's best, probably something like my new UPOCC silver ribbon cables ...but on a slightly smaller budget I can see using copper for the woofers and a lighter gauge silver cable for the highs, and for high efficiency speakers sometimes a massive cable isn't necessary. One popular brand has an 8g UPOCC silver cable for the cost of a small car... ok, but many systems would be just as well served with a much lighter gauge cable.

Bi-wiring also gets complicated and confusing for many, and trial and error are required depending on budget and system, the truth is this isn't practical and thus optimizing a system by bi-wiring is just not that practical. You need the time and the demo cables to do it properly and for most folks this just isn't happening. It gets bad enough without bi-wiring and using jumpers and how the main speaker cable is connected, with a diagonal arrangement often working best. The speaker designer can get rid of ALL of this simply by hooking up the xo how he or she thinks is best internally using short lengths of wire without connectors.

So there are pros and cons, bi-wiring adds some flexibility but at the cost of too much complexity for most people, most of the time. Also, the best possible solution is probably a single very high quality cable without all the extra jumpers and connectors involved.

 

[NorthStar]

"It gets bad enough without bi-wiring and using jumpers and how the main speaker cable is connected, with a diagonal arrangement often working best."

I think it's the first time I read "diagonal arrangement".
Usually most people use the lower pair of binding posts.

 

[PierreB]

Like this one

 

[NorthStar]

Exactly Pierre; I don't remember seing this before. And DaveC is a cable designer expert ...

"... a diagonal arrangement often working best."