A different philosophy.

[DaveyF]

A little background first...
Yesterday, I had an extremely interesting and informative conversation with one of the premier amp and digital designers in our hobby ( his name shall remain confidential). The event that I had this conversation at was an a'phile gathering wherein the designer/manufacturer was showing his latest gear. After he had introduced himself to the audience, he gave us some insight into his background and history, which included the fact that he worked in the pro audio world in the past. His job in the pro audio world was to design and build amps and other gear for some fairly well known musicians. Apparently, he was successful in that endeavor and moved on to high end audio many years back.
After the introduction, the group had the opportunity of meeting one on one. I went up to him and asked him a simple question...this based on the fact that he told the group that he designs his gear with no listening sessions whatsoever. Instead, he relies solely on specs and measurements. My question: when he was working for the musicians, how did he know what sound they were trying to achieve if he never listened to the gear?...( I thought he would answer as follows: I had numerous discussions with the artists and they gave me an idea as to the sound they wanted...if that is possible)
Anyhow, that was NOT the answer I received, instead, the manufacturer/designer told me that the gear was designed on paper following again various specs and measurements.
Now here's where it gets really interesting......as I dabble a little with playing music and have enjoyed both the pro audio side and the a'phile side for many years, I asked him since he does not listen to his gear what makes him know if it sounds good???
The answer--- " I hate music and never want to listen to it"...BUT I do this for a living and enjoying music is irrelevant to my ability to produce gear. ( I was a little shocked at this answer...).
The thing that this designer tells me next, makes me think...he asks me, how many designer's and manufacturer's really like music at all...and why do they have to like music to be able to create great gear to reproduce it? He also asks...how many people that are in his business completely dislike all music and are honest enough to state this fact...as he just did!

On reflection, this is an interesting point...In his opinion,a great electrical designer/engineer has enough electrical engineering experience and 'chops' to never have to listen to his gear...simply relying on measurements and known theory. No need to ever submit oneself to the unpleasant aspect of listening to music ( which as I said, he made a strong point of telling me how much he dislikes all music...to him it is an unpleasant and unfulfilling experience), when as he states..someone else will do that for him ( he did tell me he has a listening panel that he also consults; although I did not get the feeling that he puts much merit in their opinion) and he apparently gets feedback from his customers.
A different philosophy than mine...because IMHO if you have no clue what the sound of the 'real' sounds like ( and enjoy same), how can you ever realize- or hope to design for it....or maybe I am completely wrong....

Your thoughts?

 

[asiufy]

Wow, kinda shocking... I know my share of "measurements first" manufacturers, but none that go as far as to "hate music". On the contrary, most of the manufacturers I know, once confronted with other gear they like, they crave for it, just like we (their customers) do.

Weird...

 

[Johnny Vinyl]

Good thing he's not designing for the healthcare industry.

 

[ack]

Nothing new, to me. All of this reminded me of Sony, Pioneer, Sanyo and just about everything we call mass-market, which includes a large part of pro audio. Just because he claims he's into the "high end" doesn't mean he designs anything more than average or mediocre products. Unfortunately, what you describe, I don't find uncommon, and cable designers come to mind immediately, and probably a lot of speaker designers, judging from the stuff they build and claims they make, and when you then move to the sound they make, it's all there in front of you. As I have said in the past, my approach is always Designer->Design->Sound. I can already dismiss this guy, like so many others like him.

 

[Andre Marc]

A little background first...
Yesterday, I had an extremely interesting and informative conversation with one of the premier amp and digital designers in our hobby ( his name shall remain confidential). The event that I had this conversation at was an a'phile gathering wherein the designer/manufacturer was showing his latest gear. After he had introduced himself to the audience, he gave us some insight into his background and history, which included the fact that he worked in the pro audio world in the past. His job in the pro audio world was to design and build amps and other gear for some fairly well known musicians. Apparently, he was successful in that endeavor and moved on to high end audio many years back.
After the introduction, the group had the opportunity of meeting one on one. I went up to him and asked him a simple question...this based on the fact that he told the group that he designs his gear with no listening sessions whatsoever. Instead, he relies solely on specs and measurements. My question: when he was working for the musicians, how did he know what sound they were trying to achieve if he never listened to the gear?...( I thought he would answer as follows: I had numerous discussions with the artists and they gave me an idea as to the sound they wanted...if that is possible)
Anyhow, that was NOT the answer I received, instead, the manufacturer/designer told me that the gear was designed on paper following again various specs and measurements.
Now here's where it gets really interesting......as I dabble a little with playing music and have enjoyed both the pro audio side and the a'phile side for many years, I asked him since he does not listen to his gear what makes him know if it sounds good???
The answer--- " I hate music and never want to listen to it"...BUT I do this for a living and enjoying music is irrelevant to my ability to produce gear. ( I was a little shocked at this answer...).
The thing that this designer tells me next, makes me think...he asks me, how many designer's and manufacturer's really like music at all...and why do they have to like music to be able to create great gear to reproduce it? He also asks...how many people that are in his business completely dislike all music and are honest enough to state this fact...as he just did!

On reflection, this is an interesting point...In his opinion,a great electrical designer/engineer has enough electrical engineering experience and 'chops' to never have to listen to his gear...simply relying on measurements and known theory. No need to ever submit oneself to the unpleasant aspect of listening to music ( which as I said, he made a strong point of telling me how much he dislikes all music...to him it is an unpleasant and unfulfilling experience), when as he states..someone else will do that for him ( he did tell me he has a listening panel that he also consults; although I did not get the feeling that he puts much merit in their opinion) and he apparently gets feedback from his customers.
A different philosophy than mine...because IMHO if you have no clue what the sound of the 'real' sounds like ( and enjoy same), how can you ever realize- or hope to design for it....or maybe I am completely wrong....

Your thoughts?

DaveyF. Shocking in some ways, not in others. I have a pretty good idea of which designer it is.

Upon reflection, it is not that big a surprise since many audiophiles hate music too.

 

[jeromelang]

Guy who doesn't "voice" his stuff to pander to audiophile whims and idiosyncrasies.
I would love to hear them.

 

[c1ferrari]

Hi Davey,

Had I been there, I would have queried about chipless dacs.

 

[DaveyF]

Hi Davey,

Had I been there, I would have queried about chipless dacs.

Sam, apparently, he buys the chips like most other manufacturer's.


Andre, I think that he really was simply into the technology ( for which I believe he is well versed) but in his words...."would rather watch TV any day than listen to music in the home or elsewhere". BTW,I did query him about the MQA format, he had never heard of it and dismissed it due to lack of knowledge on his part.

Alex, I too was shocked, to say the least, when he stated this opinion...particularly since his gear is so well respected and recognized in the industry.

 

[DaveyF]

Nothing new, to me. All of this reminded me of Sony, Pioneer, Sanyo and just about everything we call mass-market, which includes a large part of pro audio. Just because he claims he's into the "high end" doesn't mean he designs anything more than average or mediocre products. Unfortunately, what you describe, I don't find uncommon, and cable designers come to mind immediately, and probably a lot of speaker designers, judging from the stuff they build and claims they make, and when you then move to the sound they make, it's all there in front of you. As I have said in the past, my approach is always Designer->Design->Sound. I can already dismiss this guy, like so many others like him.

Ack, this guy actually designs and manufactures some of the most highly thought of amps and digital gear on the market!! Not in any way mid-fi! I listened to the gear at length at the meet, it was not to my taste, but I can easily see how many would like the sound and pay dearly for it.
The question is how many designers and manufacturers in our hobby are exactly like him--- in the speaker field, the electronics area, the turntable area and so on??
Does the intense dislike of music have anything to do with their ability to design and produce great audio gear???

 

[DaveC]

Seems strange, how about having a passion for what you do? For me, that's the most important thing. If I didn't like music working on the gear would be much less rewarding. I think the best designers measure AND listen!

 

[DaveyF]

Very interesting Grasshopper. Perhaps having to do it as a job has taken the fun out of it. That's true in lots of professions.

Tomelex, I didn't say that he said he did not like his job, on the contrary, I believe he does like the engineering side a great deal. He simply dislikes music and all that it seems to stand for.
Since the business he is in is designing and manufacturing very high end audio electronics...amps, DAC's, preamps,etc...I find his comment to be very different..at least to what i would have expected.
The question is how common this is with designers and manufacturers in our hobby.

 

[DaveyF]

Seems strange, how about having a passion for what you do? For me, that's the most important thing. If I didn't like music working on the gear would be much less rewarding. I think the best designers measure AND listen!

Dave, I would have thought like you. However, he is in the business for one reason...the monetary return...I presume. Like I said above, he seems to enjoy the technical side very much; and which I believe he is very well versed in. Sees no reason whatsoever to
have to listen to, or enjoy music, at all. How you can do the job he does without having loads of experience with music and having great enjoyment from music, escapes me. However, I kind of see his point IF you are so into the technical side and believe that this is all that
matters.

 

[esldude]

I don't think it so strange. Of course the most obvious thing is he does not believe listening to the results matter at all. Design accurate equipment and you don't need to do so.

Reminds me of a friend in college. His family told him and his brother over and over: "don't do what you like, learn to like what you are good at. Find out what areas you are better than most people and only do that for a living. Learn to like it or learn to do it without liking it. Don't ever do something professionally just because you enjoy it."

Now I thought it odd, and I believe it is an unusual opinion. I didn't think so at the time, but I think some of the wisdom of it was anything you depend on for a living one way or another is very likely to become something you don't enjoy. So don't ruin things you enjoy to become a prostitute for money in a sense. Keep those separate and you can earn more money, make rational career decisions, and your happiness does not depend on your career.

 

[DaveC]

I don't think it so strange. Of course the most obvious thing is he does not believe listening to the results matter at all. Design accurate equipment and you don't need to do so.

Reminds me of a friend in college. His family told him and his brother over and over: "don't do what you like, learn to like what you are good at. Find out what areas you are better than most people and only do that for a living. Learn to like it or learn to do it without liking it. Don't ever do something professionally just because you enjoy it."

Now I thought it odd, and I believe it is an unusual opinion. I didn't think so at the time, but I think some of the wisdom of it was anything you depend on for a living one way or another is very likely to become something you don't enjoy. So don't ruin things you enjoy to become a prostitute for money in a sense. Keep those separate and you can earn more money, make rational career decisions, and your happiness does not depend on your career.

I see the point, but it is a false dichotomy. It's possible to have both, but aptitude is most important.

 

[ack]

Ack, this guy actually designs and manufactures some of the most highly thought of amps and digital gear on the market!! Not in any way mid-fi! I listened to the gear at length at the meet, it was not to my taste, but I can easily see how many would like the sound and pay dearly for it.
The question is how many designers and manufacturers in our hobby are exactly like him--- in the speaker field, the electronics area, the turntable area and so on??
Does the intense dislike of music have anything to do with their ability to design and produce great audio gear???

Do they pay dearly for the sound, or for the fancy box and faceplate. He may not be a mid-fi engineer, but he's not fundamentally different - I bet the Sony engineers could build better products if given the resources they need, targeted the higher end, and cared about the sound of what they are building. If he were an automobile engineer, would we buy his products if we knew he doesn't even test-drive them and doesn't care about cars? If you were to disclose the brand name, I bet a few of us would not be surprised at all based on our perception of his products.

 

[esldude]

I see the point, but it is a false dichotomy. It's possible to have both, but aptitude is most important.

It is possible to have both. And when that is the case you have hit a jackpot. It isn't common.

Notice the guy's parents didn't say if you enjoy something don't do it. Only that aptitude is a reason to pursue a profession. Not whether you enjoy the profession or not.

 

[Phelonious Ponk]

I'm not sure i've ever met anyone who "hates music." If I did, I'm pretty sure I wouldn't trust them.

Tim

 

[Al M.]

Upon reflection, it is not that big a surprise since many audiophiles hate music too.

Absolutely true!

 

[DaveyF]

Do they pay dearly for the sound, or for the fancy box and faceplate. He may not be a mid-fi engineer, but he's not fundamentally different - I bet the Sony engineers could build better products if given the resources they need, targeted the higher end, and cared about the sound of what they are building. If he were an automobile engineer, would we buy his products if we knew he doesn't even test-drive them and doesn't care about cars? If you were to disclose the brand name, I bet a few of us would not be surprised at all based on our perception of his products.

Actually, I think most people here would be surprised at the name of the company and the designer. Although, I guess paying dearly for the fancy box and faceplate is perhaps more common than we might believe, I don't think this fully applies to the gear that this manufacturer produces.
I do think that his engineering prowess is probably well deserved, but his products are certainly much better received than I would have thought, given his philosophy. ( Which he made a point of saying is something that he is, in his opinion, unique in displaying).I can only presume that the consumers of his products may not be aware of this...or don't care about it??

 

[DaveyF]

I'm not sure i've ever met anyone who "hates music." If I did, I'm pretty sure I wouldn't trust them.

Tim

Tim, I wouldn't go that far, but as a fellow musician it certainly did not impress me. More surprising to me was that the gentleman in question would say such a thing...given his occupation and his well respected notoriety! OTOH, like I said in my OP, maybe we ( The more art leaning vs. science leaning) are completely in the wrong in regards to this issue. Perhaps food for thought??