A dream came true - R2R.

[Zeotrope]

How

for now between my A810 and the TP1000

how would you compare the sound between the machines?

And regarding going very far with vinyl: if you go really far, you’ll find that there is no equal in the tape head preamp world, for the world’s best phono stages. Perhaps that will change in the future.

 

[dminches]

How

how would you compare the sound between the machines?

And regarding going very far with vinyl: if you go really far, you’ll find that there is no equal in the tape head preamp world, for the world’s best phono stages. Perhaps that will change in the future.

Which ones have you listened to?

 

[Zeotrope]

It’s impossible to listen to a phono preamp on a tape machine.
Given that, you have to rely on the tech and circuit design. Look at the CH Precision P10 - it’s in a different league than anything available for tape decks.
The TT industry has had the benefit of a few decades of investment into R&D.

 

[dminches]

I wasn’t suggesting you listen to phono preamps with tape machines. I meant which tape preamps have you listened to.

I don’t think one should discount components if they haven’t heard them. And there are a lot of people who don’t like the sound of the CH Precision preamps despite their high price. It isn’t one size fits all, as I know you know.

There aren’t any $50k+ tape preamps on the market but that doesn’t mean that ones that are less expensive don’t sound great.

 

[Zeotrope]

Until the same preamp can be used with both sources, it’s impossible to know for sure. But it’s clear (to me at least) that the Merrill and Doshi are not in the same league as the P10/HD Phono. Just look at how much attention has been placed on input power, or the type of transformers used.

As far as I know, only Nagra is reportedly planning to offer a tape input on the HD Phono. When that happens, it will be possible to compare it against other tape head preamps.

 

[dminches]

There are 2 tape units that cost more than $50K;

Jonathan Knight's Hachidori Fukami (tape/phono) unit 75k
Soulution 757 Deemphasis Unit (tape/phono/DS Audio EQ), 85+k

 

[Mike Lavigne]

Given that, you have to rely on the tech and circuit design. Look at the CH Precision P10 - it’s in a different league than anything available for tape decks.

and you know that how?

honestly not trying to have an argument, but ultimate Tape preamp performance is quite remarkable. the best engineers at a number of formidable companies did much work to make that happen. and now current talent and tech tools has tweaked them and vintage master recorder transports to be better with better heads than existed before. tape has a higher performance ceiling than vinyl. i would agree that lots more media tips the balance to vinyl for value. which is different than top performance.

with all due respect to the CH Precision P10.

 

[Zeotrope]

There are 2 tape units that cost more than $50K;

Jonathan Knight's Hachidori Fukami (tape/phono) unit 75k
Soulution 757 Deemphasis Unit (tape/phono/DS Audio EQ), 85+k

Thanks, interesting. I had not heard of these. Has anyone heard the Fukami? Is this Jonathan Knight’s first product?

 

[Zeotrope]

and you know that how?

honestly not trying to have an argument, but ultimate Tape preamp performance is quite remarkable. the best engineers at a number of formidable companies did much work to make that happen. and now current talent and tech tools has tweaked them and vintage master recorder transports to be better with better heads than existed before. tape has a higher performance ceiling than vinyl. i would agree that lots more media tips the balance to vinyl for value. which is different than top performance.

with all due respect to the CH Precision P10.

The vintage machines were never designed for audio fidelity - not in the way we would define it now.
Listen to what Jonathan Knight says here:

You’ll never convince me otherwise, so we can agree to disagree

 

[byrdparis]

and you know that how?

honestly not trying to have an argument, but ultimate Tape preamp performance is quite remarkable. the best engineers at a number of formidable companies did much work to make that happen. and now current talent and tech tools has tweaked them and vintage master recorder transports to be better with better heads than existed before. tape has a higher performance ceiling than vinyl. i would agree that lots more media tips the balance to vinyl for value. which is different than top performance.

with all due respect to the CH Precision P10.

although the threads got to be on a way to an argument (again) between new and old,
i won't get in to that issue, my idea and choosing for the AAD TP1000 was stated earlier, i am still keeping my Studer A810 , as Foxbat and also Jonathan suggested to me earlier in our private conversation.
Prior to the TP1000 arriving I didn't have any reference with another deck in my own system so I didn't know how "good\bad" my A810 sounds...
Now I do, at least compared to the TP1000...
I am really interested in sending my A810 for some mode to have a direct head output and experiment with some head preamp myself. Maybe someday in the future when I find the right person for it.
As for now, there is no way for the TP1000 to be connected to one (Christophe is planning to issue a new deck in the future TP1100 with that option, but its not final when) so, it is connected with its own inner electronics.
The new design, the finesse, smooth operation, the easy access to every setup point, the warm analog sound and of course the personal support of the designer and builder itself are valued very much for me. I trust that every upgrade in firmware and others will be "pushed" by Christophe to his customers for not "left" behind. so, it is not me buying new vs old... or better than what I had done before, it's just sheer logic and an easy buy for all that I've stated above.

To get things ongoing in the right direction (MY dream for R2R reproduction)
I think after several months in that world with two decks already and more than 40 master quality tapes purchased in this time period I am related to this the most:

"tape has a higher performance ceiling than vinyl. I would agree that lots more media tips the balance to vinyl for value. which is different than top performance."

I couldn't have written it better myself.
As my world of vinyl kept growing in 30 years with a large collection and a very good analog system going through A LOT.... once you taste a real master tape you can realise this sentence.

As I mentioned before and you all know for a fact, there is no bottom to our game, one can pursue perfection and "better" equipment for the rest of his life and his dynasty to follow....
but I myself can only get what my wallet allows me, and need to decide my steps to get the best I can regarding all accounts. Michael had several evolutions with decks as we all read for years... so, me buying a new machine not necessarily and automatically disregard the old "ferraris" (a820, ATR102 etc,,,) and sure am not deleting the pre amp issue that you guys just nailed me to the wall to get

As I said, I wanted to get an ATR102 with the idea to have a preamp for it later on, but this step was too hard to make for lack of communication (not to mention the price to add)
I really think it was written in my stars... So someday...

 

[Mike Lavigne]

The vintage machines were never designed for audio fidelity - not in the way we would define it now.
Listen to what Jonathan Knight says here:

watched the video, cannot disagree with anything there, as the pedestrian stock output electronics and heads of stock 60's-80's master tape decks were not optimal. most agree to some degree on that. they were not bad, designed for flat response, but room for better sound. which is why today we see the efforts fixing this (including his). OTOH vintage Ampex MR-70 preamps (and a few Studer tube units....and maybe others under my radar) specifically do NOT fall into that pedestrian category, especially optimized and matched to the right modern heads. Jonathan does not mention the Ampex MR 70, wonder if he checked it out? if he did, how far did he go with it?

as far as vinyl not being great for orchestral music and big band, i also wonder how far he went with that? but in the end agree tape has a higher ceiling for that too. although you can find astonishingly great orchestral and big band vinyl with the right vinyl playback and overall system maturity.

 

[Zeotrope]

The Fukami is Jonathan's first product, is that correct?
I will start a separate thread.

 

[Mike Lavigne]

although the threads got to be on a way to an argument (again) between new and old,
i won't get in to that issue, my idea and choosing for the AAD TP1000 was stated earlier, i am still keeping my Studer A810 , as Foxbat and also Jonathan suggested to me earlier in our private conversation.

once i saw you post that you had made a buying decision, which you posted below my post, i deleted my post related to older decks.

congrats on the AAD TP1000!

"tape has a higher performance ceiling than vinyl. I would agree that lots more media tips the balance to vinyl for value. which is different than top performance."

I couldn't have written it better myself.
As my world of vinyl kept growing in 30 years with a large collection and a very good analog system going through A LOT.... once you taste a real master tape you can realise this sentence.

As I mentioned before and you all know for a fact, there is no bottom to our game, one can pursue perfection and "better" equipment for the rest of his life and his dynasty to follow....
but I myself can only get what my wallet allows me, and need to decide my steps to get the best I can regarding all accounts. Michael had several evolutions with decks as we all read for years... so, me buying a new machine not necessarily and automatically disregard the old "ferraris" (a820, ATR102 etc,,,) and sure am not deleting the pre amp issue that you guys just nailed me to the wall to get

As I said, I wanted to get an ATR102 with the idea to have a preamp for it later on, but this step was too hard to make for lack of communication (not to mention the price to add)
I really think it was written in my stars... So someday...

enjoy the path you are on......it's all good.

 

[Edward Pong]

If you think all the Studers & Ampexes were conceived & designed to run 24/7 in recording studios. This they did extremely well. In fact the Studer A80's have modular cards which could be changed easily if malfunctions occurred.
As Mike says, they were not designed to playback the absolute best sound possible. This is something we audiophiles have taken on.

To put it another way, there is limited space to conceive the record & playback electronics, to fit inside a deck. These in no way can equal any record or playback amp conceived with unlimited space for components/transformers/power supplies. So this is just the reality of stock machines, not a criticism.

The playback amp is critical for the retrieval of the extreme low level signals on a good master tape. All of us have experienced this in vinyl with our phono stages as better tubes/transformers/etc are used. Absolutely the same situation exists for the tape deck. The real problem is there are not enough tape decks out there (potential customers) to warrant the development of the best playback amps costing 30-50K.
Consequently we have built our own with the best tubes/silver transformers & circuits we could dream up. The results are truly amazing, in a sensitive system.
For sure, tape has the potential to be the best source. Most of the best LPs existed as a tape first so without a format change, tape has the highest potential, only limited by the record & playback amps for the deck.... IMHO

Ed

 

[Zeotrope]

Hi Ed,
I wholly agree with you.
The "problem" is that this is not scalable, and that's my point: the tape head preamps available to consumers who do not want to, or cannot, design their own, doesn't match what's available on the vinyl side.
That said, I'm intrigued by the Soulution 757 and the Fukami, and of course the (hopefully) upcoming tape input for the Nagra HD Phono.

 

[Edward Pong]

Since the playback amp is so critical to the retrieval of low level detail, it would be interesting to know what playback system is being used by the various companies selling master tape copies...
I believe this will determine the level of refinement of the tapes you receive... IMHO

Ed

 

[Edward Pong]

I totally agree with you Mike, price does not always equate to performance. We all know the parts cost of any product needs to be a certain percentage of the selling price as there are many costs related to packaging, advertising and the cosmetics of 1" thick face plates!

I am the polar opposite! All the money goes into the parts to create the sound we love...

I guess I'm the odd man out here as I exist only in the DIY world, for electronics... I'm sorry I know nothing about any stock components.

We have built all the line stages, the power amps for my audio system, and all the record & playback amps for the Studer. We use the Studer for it's calibration stages and we even created a battery power supply for these 1st stages to give more purity to the signal.

We learned, every tube has it's sonic signature, no matter how much the finished unit costs... a 6DJ8 will have a 6DJ8 sonic signature.
That's why we settled on the WE437a as the input tube for the 3 amps in my audio system and for all the record & playback amps for the Studer. There is no tube, we listened to, with it's sound palate... It is what creates the sonic signature for all my tapes... in fact it starts right at the beginning! The microphone signal 1st hits a WE437a tube & the output is a WE300b. Both are NOS 1956 Western Electric.
This signal path from master tape recording to tape duplication is the best we could conceive....

Ed

 

[byrdparis]

once i saw you post that you had made a buying decision, which you posted below my post, i deleted my post related to older decks.

congrats on the AAD TP1000!

enjoy the path you are on......it's all good.

thank you, and of course you can write whatever you like (god only know how many hours i read your posts over the years you earned it in my book). I am always happy to read your thoughts, and learn.

Buying decisions is all we do eventually, as Ron once said, he looked at which technician he had in his area and went for the dECK he could service locally. Ultimately he gets the A820 that have a consensus on, so he is "ok" and we are buying a new deck as the tp1000 for some reasons are less rightess?

but it is all good and I thank you for your kind words.
i truly enjoy your path and comments!

just to say a few words on the TP1000, its a magnificent machine.
smooth, quiet, easy to operate and dial! The look and finish is amazing, it is well built. it's not a heavy beast as ATR102 or A820... but for a ground zero design and build its amazing and a very cool product. packing is perfect, adapters, pick up reel, tools and everything you need to spin those reels for perfection. i can only compare it to my studio A810, but i can also evaluate its sound v.s my other formats in my system. I enjoy it a lot and I'm glad I bought it.

I can easily understand how one can get higher in this format as I always thought about it with my vinyl system... but.. with the noticed ground there is a limited amount of music to buy and collect in this format, the prices one needs to pay for them to enjoy this format etc... I can say it's a perfect buy for the "normal" high end consumer. buying decisions

As I mentioned, I might buy an ATR102 with a preamp in the future, I really can see it happend

A

 

[adrianywu]

One must not overlook Charles King's tape head preamp. It is a significant upgrade for many pro machines, and has infinitely adjustable EQ. I have one, but I also modified one of my Allen Wright RTP-3C tube preamps for tape head duty. Any preamp with phono input can be modified, but those with passive RIAA are easier to do. Since I built the preamp with point to point wiring, it was simple to do. I used relays to switch EQ initially, but I have since hard wired it because I only really use it for 15 ips CCIR.

 

[Foxbat]

One must not overlook Charles King's tape head preamp. It is a significant upgrade for many pro machines, and has infinitely adjustable EQ. I have one, but I also modified one of my Allen Wright RTP-3C tube preamps for tape head duty. Any preamp with phono input can be modified, but those with passive RIAA are easier to do. Since I built the preamp with point to point wiring, it was simple to do. I used relays to switch EQ initially, but I have since hard wired it because I only really use it for 15 ips CCIR.

Hi Adrian, I really see no difference in difficulty. All my previous ones had passive networks, but I just modified the Marantz 7 with a feedback network, and it was just as easy. I just did it for an educational Youtube video, not expecting any miracle but the result exceeded my expectations.

If one knows what he is doing, he can put together a very, very, very good head pream for just $250 in parts.