A/V Room Service Equipment Vibration Protectors (EVPs)

[Mike Lavigne]

On a different topic, your post observes: "Multiple active platforms, such as those by Herzan and Accurion mentioned above, probably would be the best solution." (though you note neither your room nor your budget accomodate such solutions.) I am not a technology person but I have a somewhat technical question for you: if a component is capable of having multiple internal simultaneous resonances sometimes at different frequencies, and the component is subject to vibrations from external sources at the same time, how does an active platform deal with those? If my question makes no sense, I can handle that. Thanks in advance for your insight.

hummmm?

your question makes perfect sense.....to me.

i have 5 active isolation devices in my signal path; the Taiko Tana 'system'/Herzan. 2 for my amps, one for my preamp, one for my phono stage, and one for one of my turntables (where it can work due to zero self noise). really crazy and not cheap. off the deep end stuff.

the answer to your question is that an active device does not care where the resonance comes from, including the gear it's isolating. if it's piezo electric sensors read it, it will attenuate it. you can clap your hands loudly next to the device and see noise on the screen that is being attenuated. jump on the floor, tap on the gear same thing.

but you are right to mention different frequencies, which is why Taiko studied the Herzan TS active devices and developed the whole 'Tana' system, which includes a 10mm top layer of panzerholtz, a thin natural rubber membrane, and then Daiza on top. the Daiza product idea came from research developing the Tana platform. this Tana 'system' does cover the whole frequency spectrum. the active Herzan TS shelf does have some passive attenuation designed into it, but as the frequencies rise it's less effective by itself. so a system is needed to do the whole job.

DAIZA ISOLATION PLATFORM – Taiko Audio

taikoaudio.com

i mentioned 'self-noise'. active won't work with gear that has sufficient self noise to cause a feedback loop; which will degrade performance and eventually burn out the motors. most electronics are fine, but most turntables are not fine. of my 4 tt's, only the NVS can be used......as i see zero self noise on the readout of the Herzan when playing records. no 'self-noise' to attenuate. note that the WBF member who just purchased the Techdas Zero is using a Herzan active stand for it, and tells us it improves the Zero performance. so the Zero must have no self noise into it's bottom case. and if it improves the performance even with all the isolation built into the Zero that tells us something too.

the other really big thing about active devices is that they come standard with SMPS (switch mode power supplies) which cause noise in the a hifi signal path, sometimes lots of noise. when auditioning an active device in your system you need to realize what might be causing the positive or negative results. you might be getting outstanding positive resonance attenuation, but the SMPS could be poluteing your signal path degrading the net benefit. or you could be getting self noise too. so it's not a simple thing to do an audition. it took me years to understand these things.

the Tana 'system' includes a pretty exotic stand alone panzerholtz cased LPS (liner power supply) which has no noise and improves the performance of the Herzan TS unit. lower noise, better performance.

oh and btw, with the whole signal path covered by active devices you do have some magic going on as the whole feedback loop of resonance is essentially broken, the whole becomes greater than the parts, and so reproduction musical truth is presented that is not otherwise accessed. it kicks ass.

active is not a universal solution blindly applied. it requires a solid floor and solid rack to work properly, so it is 'site' sensitive. and likely not all gear is designed to have resonance eliminated equally. in my system my dart preamp gets the least 'lift' from it as it's built like a tank and is already on the bottom shelf of a solid rack. when it works it's amazing.

 

[Gjo]

From $39/ea to $89/ea in 2.5 years.

I was shocked. What had begun as a cost effective solution suddenly changed significantly.

Nevertheless, I ordered one set of four to try under my DAC. They will be compared to HRS Nimbus couplers.

 

[tima]

Thanks for your reply, Mike.

he answer to your question is that an active device does not care where the resonance comes from, including the gear it's isolating. if it's piezo electric sensors read it, it will attenuate it. you can clap your hands loudly next to the device and see noise on the screen that is being attenuated. jump on the floor, tap on the gear same thing.

I'm not sure I understand the part about the Herzan active device not caring with resonance comes from. Does it attenuate frequencies coming from above and different frequencies coming from below at the same time? I understand the additive constrained layer approach of the Taiko system, but I'm asking about the Herzan device alone, before the Tana treatment.

 

[Mike Lavigne]

Thanks for your reply, Mike.



I'm not sure I understand the part about the Herzan active device not caring with resonance comes from. Does it attenuate frequencies coming from above and different frequencies coming from below at the same time? I understand the additive constrained layer approach of the Taiko system, but I'm asking about the Herzan device alone, before the Tana treatment.

the Herzan uses peizo electric sensors in 6 axis's and piezo electric actuators in 6 axis's. these sensors and actuators are connected to the top plate. the intent being to keep that top plate stable. any resonance affecting the top plate stability gets attenuated. when the unit is first turned on it has a leveling mechanism. you hear whirring of that process then it's ready to work.

that resonance can come from the rack/floor below transferred by the chassis of the Herzan, it can come from the gear on top of the Herzan resting on the top plate. it can be air borne resonance. the sensors do not discern the source of resonance, just that it is sensed and then attenuated keeping the top plate from being offset. having a solid floor and solid rack with mass is a critical aspect of optimization for an active device. otherwise the performance degrades with constant excess feedback from the rack and floor. it will work, but not as well. when it's used in laboratories and in industry they even recommend it's used in a basement or ground floor for optimal performance.

some assume that these devices do not react 'fast' enough to really deal with resonance properly. but in reality they absolutely do react fast enough for an electron microscope, other sensitive scientific instruments, or music reproduction gear. if you have a proper environment for active, you will hear how your gear really sounds for the first time.

the biggest advantage of active verses passive is stiffness. active is 500x as stiff as passive. passive works like a spring. passive overshoots and floats. passive cannot stop and start. active can stop and start. a stock Herzan attenuates to .5 hz. the 'Tana' system is even better than that. when you remove ground noise from the signal path there is a life to the music that get's uncovered that is wonderful.

as far frequencies attenuated, the active device is mostly actively working in the range of .5hz-200hz; these are the frequencies where passive is least effective. the Herzan does have a passive component that is effective up to 1000hz-1500hz, but it's less effective. therefore the 'Tana' system adds the 10mm top layer of panzerholtz, the rubber membrane, and the Daiza, to extend the effectiveness to the full range of frequency effectiveness.

 

[LL21]

the Herzan uses peizo electric sensors in 6 axis's and piezo electric actuators in 6 axis's. these sensors and actuators are connected to the top plate. the intent being to keep that top plate stable. any resonance affecting the top plate stability gets attenuated. when the unit is first turned on it has a leveling mechanism. you hear whirring of that process then it's ready to work.

that resonance can come from the rack/floor below transferred by the chassis of the Herzan, it can come from the gear on top of the Herzan resting on the top plate. it can be air borne resonance. the sensors do not discern the source of resonance, just that it is sensed and then attenuated keeping the top plate from being offset. having a solid floor and solid rack with mass is a critical aspect of optimization for an active device. otherwise the performance degrades with constant excess feedback from the rack and floor. it will work, but not as well. when it's used in laboratories and in industry they even recommend it's used in a basement or ground floor for optimal performance.

some assume that these devices do not react 'fast' enough to really deal with resonance properly. but in reality they absolutely do react fast enough for an electron microscope, other sensitive scientific instruments, or music reproduction gear. if you have a proper environment for active, you will hear how your gear really sounds for the first time.

the biggest advantage of active verses passive is stiffness. active is 500x as stiff as passive. passive works like a spring. passive overshoots and floats. passive cannot stop and start. active can stop and start. a stock Herzan attenuates to .5 hz. the 'Tana' system is even better than that. when you remove ground noise from the signal path there is a life to the music that get's uncovered that is wonderful.

as far frequencies attenuated, the active device is mostly actively working in the range of .5hz-200hz; these are the frequencies where passive is least effective. the Herzan does have a passive component that is effective up to 1000hz-1500hz, but it's less effective. therefore the 'Tana' system adds the 10mm top layer of panzerholtz, the rubber membrane, and the Daiza, to extend the effectiveness to the full range of frequency effectiveness.

Very very cool. Will definitely bear that in mind for the future...

 

[tima]

Thank you Mike for taking the time to help me better understand how the Herzan works. Your advocacy is undergirded by the success you've had with the Tana devices and you figured out where they work best in your system.

I will give you a little pushback on your assessment of passive devices. What you say may very well true of some but I don't believe it is true of all passive devices.

passive works like a spring. passive overshoots and floats. passive cannot stop and start. active can stop and start. a stock Herzan attenuates to .5 hz. the 'Tana' system is even better than that. when you

 

[Mike Lavigne]

Thank you Mike for taking the time to help me better understand how the Herzan works. Your advocacy is undergirded by the success you've had with the Tana devices and you figured out where they work best in your system.

I will give you a little pushback on your assessment of passive devices. What you say may very well true of some but I don't believe it is true of all passive devices.

thank you.

to be clear, i love passive resonance attenuation and use it everywhere in my system. i have '22' Daiza's, 8 sets of A10-U8 Wave Kinetics footers, 4 sets of 'Hifi Stay' decoupling footers and a drawer full of extra footers. i value solid billet build quality in my MSB digital, and the over-the-top darTZeel build quality....that's all passive stuff. Active resonance attenuation is only right in particular cases.

and there are passive devices that get very close to active in performance, such as the Minus K. but they have very specific weight and balance requirements. the Stacore products are also right there and are less restricted. those two products would be my top passive choices. but they are not cheap either. a Stacore shelf for my Saskia would be over $10k. and they still are basically springs, and cannot stop and start. but they can be state of the art. we would have to directly compare to know if either the best passive or active is better or just different. i have my opinion, of course.

the only way an anti resonance product can stop and start is if their performance is based on sensing and then reacting. the best passive can do is to regulate air pressure. but it has nothing to do with sensing resonance, and then compensating.

i see members here with 6 $ figure racks plus 5 $ figures of footers. not questioning those commitments. lots of big time commitments to anti resonance and system optimization.

 

[Elliot G.]

For anyone interested Norm Varney will be participating in the Bending Wave Room at RMAF, Homestead 3, and all the EVP devices will be on demo and for sale at the show. There will be show deals on the products as well.

 

[tima]

we would have to directly compare to know if either the best passive or active is better or just different.

Yes - direct comparison of one product to another under the same conditions will give us each a result. Just liek with turntables (belt/idler/direct) I rather that approach than saying one design genre is superior to another.

the only way an anti resonance product can stop and start is if their performance is based on sensing and then reacting. the best passive can do is to regulate air pressure. but it has nothing to do with sensing resonance, and then compensating.

Well ... start and stop implies active which must do something, whereas passive is always on and able to respond to the conditions for which it was designed.

 

[Gjo]

Agreed 100% Tom. I also have had great success with EVPs under subwoofers.

Frankly, the $150 Pangea rack, when used with EVOs under each component, outperforms any of the exotic racks that I've tried.

Not nearly as good looking, though.

IMO, YMMV, etc...

@Jim Smith, since you write about EVP and Symposium Acoustics devices in your book, would you mind commenting on how the resulting sound compares/contrasts? They both employ similar constrained layer approaches (understanding one can add Symposium Rollerblocks to a Symposium platform...and perhaps even on top of EVP devices).

If you prefer, you may send a PM.

Thanks in advance.

 

[Jim Smith]

@Jim Smith, since you write about EVP and Symposium Acoustics devices in your book, would you mind commenting on how the resulting sound compares/contrasts? They both employ similar constrained layer approaches (understanding one can add Symposium Rollerblocks to a Symposium platform...and perhaps even on top of EVP devices).

If you prefer, you may send a PM.

Thanks in advance.

 

[Jim Smith]

TVAD, are you the same TVAD that I knew long ago, from Texas at the time, IIRC?

I still enjoy both products. I use EVPs under my subs, but the Fyne loudspeakers are too tall IMO, and would rock back & forth too easily. So I use fairly large Symposium shelves.

I have no direct experience with the Townshends, but they look to be very interesting for taller loudspeakers.

The EVPS under subs & electronics have been excellent when set up correctly, according to the various densities.

They are amazing under subs when the floor is a floating wooden floor, whether it is above another room or even an unfinished basement or crawl space. Visitors who come here for RoomPlay Reference sessions are always astounded at the quality of the bass, not only for its depth & power, but also for the agility & tunefulness.

I've not yet heard the new EVP platforms which could very well be the ticket for taller loudspeakers.

One more thing for which I have liked Norm Varney and his products - if you are unsatisfied with the performance, he will give you a refund!

 

[Lucky Larue]

From $39/ea to $89/ea in 2.5 years.

I was shocked. What had begun as a cost effective solution suddenly changed significantly.

Nevertheless, I ordered one set of four to try under my DAC. They will be compared to HRS Nimbus couplers.

And now they're $99.00. I doubt the cost of manufacturing went up that much. Success brings greed, I guess.

 

[Gjo]

And now they're $99.00. I doubt the cost of manufacturing went up that much. Success brings greed, I guess.

While I own EVPs and find them effective, at $396/four there are compelling alternatives for vibration control.

 

[Lucky Larue]

While I own EVPs and find them effective, at $396/four there are compelling alternatives for vibration control.

I wonder if Tom has any comments on the drastic price increase?

 

[tmallin]

I, too, was amazed at the price increase when I recently ordered some HD 2" rubber EVPs.

But I will say that the manufacturing consistency has definitely now been improved. In all prior low-priced batches, the vertical height of the EVPs with no load varied from on EVP to another by as much as 1/8 inch. If you wanted to keep your equipment level and still balance the load among the EVPs, this means you had to play around with putting some that were all about the same height under any given piece of equipment--and that's if you had extras to play with.

With the most recent batch of eight HD EVPs I ordered at the new higher price, all eight were pretty much the same height when I lined them up edge to edge and eyeballed them. So arranged, the tops made virtually a flat line. Whether this is important to you or to performance is another question, but clearly something about the manufacturing process has changed since the price went up. I've owned about 80 of these and this is the first batch I ever purchased where the heights were totally consistent among the EVPs.

 

[poonbean]

To put the price increase into some perspective, while there are certainly other vibration controls at this price point, I'll suggest that the better criterion would be price to performance. With that said, I had a MinusK platform beneath my techdas and greatly preferred the EVPs, ditto beneath the Dartzeel. The EVPs performance crushed the isoteks. Sold the MinusK for $2500. Norman Varney with AVRoomservice explained on the phone why this might be the case, an explanation that went well above my pay grade and I've since forgotten. Also to great improvement, the EVPs replaced the Verity's stock platforms between and under (custom long versions) the Sorastro 2s cabinets and sit comfortably beneath other boxes as well.

 

[Lucky Larue]

I, too, was amazed at the price increase when I recently ordered some HD 2" rubber EVPs.

But I will say that the manufacturing consistency has definitely now been improved. In all prior low-priced batches, the vertical height of the EVPs with no load varied from on EVP to another by as much as 1/8 inch. If you wanted to keep your equipment level and still balance the load among the EVPs, this means you had to play around with putting some that were all about the same height under any given piece of equipment--and that's if you had extras to play with.

With the most recent batch of eight HD EVPs I ordered at the new higher price, all eight were pretty much the same height when I lined them up edge to edge and eyeballed them. So arranged, the tops made virtually a flat line. Whether this is important to you or to performance is another question, but clearly something about the manufacturing process has changed since the price went up. I've owned about 80 of these and this is the first batch I ever purchased where the heights were totally consistent among the EVPs.

That's good to know. I'd rather pay a bit more to get a better-made product. (With emphasis on the "bit.") But as poonbean says, if the price to performance is still good value, I suppose I can accept it.

 

[MichaelHiFi]

I was excited to read about the members results using this product. For $39each or $160 dollars, this seemed a great solution compared to other products on the market. I visited their website and discovered they are now $99 a piece! I require 4 so $400. OK, seems a good product and for what it does, I'll pull the trigger. However, my Allnic Integrated weighs in at 36 kilo's. So I would need the larger 4" EVP's. They cost $200 each which bumps me up to $800 dollars! Now I really have to step back and revisit the "isolation solution".

 

[Gjo]

I was excited to read about the members results using this product. For $39each or $160 dollars, this seemed a great solution compared to other products on the market. I visited their website and discovered they are now $99 a piece! I require 4 so $400. OK, seems a good product and for what it does, I'll pull the trigger. However, my Allnic Integrated weighs in at 36 kilo's. So I would need the larger 4" EVP's. They cost $200 each which bumps me up to $800 dollars! Now I really have to step back and revisit the "isolation solution".

There are good options for less than $800. Many have been discussed previously: Townshend Isolation Pods ($500/four - or less if one asks for a discount), HRS Nimbus Couplers/Risers (nice used sets occasionally listed for sale ~$300/three), IsoAcoustics Orea.

I have been comparing EVPs with HRS Nimbus Coupler/Risers under amplifiers and front end components. I don't hear any difference between them, so I use whatever I have available.