Active Isolation Versus MinusK for Tube Amps?

[Mike Lavigne]

Yes, I have seem them being used force atomic microscopes that image surfaces at the atomic level. But science uses them because our purpose is just maximum isolation from ground disturbances, particularly at very low frequencies.

Most times in high-end audio we must have a compromise between isolation and coupling (draining vibrational energy from equipment) - and in the field we can't rely just on specifications and charts.

As you very well know, I neither have an interest in nor know how to use or apply specifications and charts.

 

[microstrip]

As you very well know, I neither have an interest in nor know how to use or apply specifications and charts.

Just wanted to highlight the difference between audiophiles and scientists ...

Science does not explain it all, but explains a lot.

 

[Bonesy Jonesy]

Just wanted to highlight the difference between audiophiles and scientists ...

Science does not explain it all, but explains a lot.

What if you are both ! ;-)

 

[mtemur]

Who has compared directly the sonic effect of placing a tube amplifier on an active isolation platform such as Herzan or Seismion versus placing the same tube amplifier on a MinusK platform?

What differences do you hear between these two methods of vibration isolation?

My friend and I compared the Seismion to the SRA under monoblock tube amplifiers. I’m familiar with how Minus K sounds, but our comparison was specifically against the SRA. IMHO and the short answer: anything is better than the Seismion, period.

In fact, even using the Seismion switched off with the tube amps on top was significantly better than having it switched on. The SRA was much better, by the way. I wouldn’t be surprised if you found the Minus K better than the Seismion as well.

 

[Mike Lavigne]

My friend and I compared the Seismion to the SRA under monoblock tube amplifiers. I’m familiar with how Minus K sounds, but our comparison was specifically against the SRA. IMHO and the short answer: anything is better than the Seismion, period.

In fact, even using the Seismion switched off with the tube amps on top was significantly better than having it switched on. The SRA was much better, by the way. I wouldn’t be surprised if you found the Minus K better than the Seismion as well.

it would be helpful to characterize the sonic effect of the Seismion compared to the SRA. and which particular tube amp? and what was the floor and actual rack used? was the SRA simply a shelf? or an SRA rack?

i'm not questioning your and your friend's preference in any way. i could absolutely understand where an active shelf even fully optimized might have a cooling effect on the tonality.......bass weight might be diminished.........depending on the chassis and voicing of that amp. but with active context is everything. it's not any universal solution.

i know what active does for my tubed and tube regulated EMIA phono corrector; and it's very positive and nuanced improving bass textures. but the EMIA is very neutral and solidly built. so it's just makes it more like it already is. but a tonally rich tube amp could lose it's particular magic when the resonance is removed. it will objectively lower the resonance. but does that actually make the music sound better?

active is not always the answer. but when it is it goes to it's own spot.

 

[mtemur]

it would be helpful to characterize the sonic effect of the Seismion compared to the SRA. and which particular tube amp? and what was the floor and actual rack used? was the SRA simply a shelf? or an SRA rack?

i'm not questioning your and your friend's preference in any way. i could absolutely understand where an active shelf even fully optimized might have a cooling effect on the tonality.......bass weight might be diminished.........depending on the chassis and voicing of that amp. but with active context is everything. it's not any universal solution.

i know what active does for my tubed and tube regulated EMIA phono corrector; and it's very positive and nuanced improving bass textures. but the EMIA is very neutral and solidly built. so it's just makes it more like it already is. but a tonally rich tube amp could lose it's particular magic when the resonance is removed. it will objectively lower the resonance. but does that actually make the music sound better?

active is not always the answer. but when it is it goes to it's own spot.

They were SRA Virginia platforms not the rack. Wooden floor, solid-concrete walls and ceiling.

SRA platforms have a particular sweet sound to my ears. On the other hand Seismion has a cardboard like lifeless sound. And yes, I tried it under a turntable in another setup and room many times.

The problem is; using a product made for microscopy may not always be good for audio. It's actively attacking to all vibrations. There is no problem with it if you're examining things under microscope but using it under audio equipment is wrong, because sound is a vibration too. The only place I can think of that Seismion can be useful is either a very lively resonant room or a room that doesn't have solid concrete walls. In those cases killing dynamics and life of audio components by Seismion may be compensated with non solid, reverberant walls since no dampening can stop them. Maybe this could be the reason that you feel positive about the effect of Seismion. But Seismion shouldn't be regarded as a solution to that in my opinion.

 

[Mike Lavigne]

They were SRA Virginia platforms not the rack. Wooden floor, solid-concrete walls and ceiling.

SRA platforms have a particular sweet sound to my ears. On the other hand Seismion has a cardboard like lifeless sound. And yes, I tried it under a turntable in another setup and room many times.

i had the SRA Virginia platforms sitting on the floor under the Lamm ML3's i had. i was told later that they were prototypes. and supposedly custom fitted to the ML3's. never tried my active platforms under the ML3's. i did not have enough of the right size active platforms for the 4 chassis.

and i could understand a passive platform at that level purpose fitted to particular tube amps would have advantages.

again i ask which amplifiers were used? if you'd rather not say i respect that.

The problem is; using a product made for microscopy may not always be good for audio. It's actively attacking to all vibrations. There is no problem with it if you're examining things under microscope but using it under audio equipment is wrong, because sound is a vibration too.

disagree. active many times can be the ultimate solution for music reproduction. and lowering the resonance can help a great deal in degrees of realism and bass articulation. or; it's can also dampen the musical energy when the chassis design counts on resonance for a lively sound. it's not always a fit.

active is a tool. like any tool it has to be used properly.

The only place I can think of that Seismion can be useful is either a very lively resonant room or a room that doesn't have solid concrete walls. In those cases killing dynamics and life of audio components by Seismion may be compensated with non solid, reverberant walls since no dampening can stop them.

not my experience. YMMV.

Maybe this could be the reason that you feel positive about the effect of Seismion. But Seismion shouldn't be regarded as a solution to that in my opinion.

never used the Seismion products myself. i use 5 of the Taiko Tana 'system' which is a particular hifi tuned product including the Herzan active device.

 

[mtemur]

again i ask which amplifiers were used? if you'd rather not say i respect that.

Sorry, I didn't mentioned the amps. They were Kondo Kaguras. They are one of the most robust, well designed and well built tube amplifiers. It has very thick chassis plates and 6 feet located at different places to distribute 62 kg.

which many times can be the ultimate solution for music reproduction. and lowering the resonance can help a great deal in degrees of realism and bass articulation.

I agree, lowering resonance is good for music playback. I always liked it that way but there is a huge distinction between isolation and cancellation. The thing we need and what passive platforms are doing is isolation. What Seismion does cancellation of vibrations using other vibrations produced actively.

You can listen a cartridge directly in close proximity even if the amps are turned off. You can even tell the tune that's playing. The same goes for tubes and transformers to some extent. That's because sound is a vibration too. Seismion or active vibration cancellation platforms don't know which vibrations are bad and which are producing sound. They fighting actively and aggressively against all of them. The engineers clearly state that Seismion works the same way as active noise cancelling headphones work. No active noise cancellation headphone sounds as smooth and natural as passive isolation. There is always some artifacts, unnaturalness. I prefer more isolation instead of ANC. So, we need isolation not active cancellation. The cure is worst than the plague.

or; it's can also dampen the musical energy when the chassis design counts on resonance for a lively sound. it's not always a fit.

I don't know if you're referring to your Lamm ML3s but that has never been an issue even remotely related with Kaguras. So, no, definitely not because of that. As I said before I heard Seismion in another room and another setup under a turntable with same effect. So, the effect of Seismion is constant.

i use 5 of the Taiko Tana 'system' which is a particular hifi tuned product including the Herzan active device.

I don't have first hand experience with Herzan but I'm glad it worked for you.

 

[TLi]

mtemur doesn’t like active isolation. Everyone is free to have his own opinion, I respect that.

Just want to show the other side of the coin, I have my Kondo Kagura II on Seismion and there is no turning back. Recently upgraded to Reactio II, there is very noticeable improvement over the previous Reactio’s. Many audiophile friends have come and listened. Quite a number of them ended up buying a Reactio and were very happy with the result.