Advice on non-intrusive room treatment for a living room

[Cellcbern]

These are actually the same that pjwd was mentioned, to and they are referred to as "PET Felt" or simply "PET".
Here is an example: https://www.refelt.com/product/acoustic-pet-felt-panels/

Note that ceiling baffles help with ceiling reflections and may make your room sound better. But they do little if anything to mitigate room modes because they do little if anything to address reflections off the wall behind the speakers, the wall opposite the speakers, or side wall reflections.

 

[hopkins]

Ceiling baffles help with ceiling reflections and may make your room sound better. But they do little if anything to mitigate room modes because they do nothing to address reflections off the wall behind the speakers, the wall opposite the speakers, or side wall reflections.

Yes, that's understood. I have acoustic curtains behind the speakers. There's no wall on the right side (room is 11meters long) and the left speaker is practically 2 meters from the left wall. Open baffles have some attenuation on the side (though mine probably less so as they have wings).

As for the bass, the speaker placement I have now is not perfect but "decent" and I'll see if I deal with that later.

Taking it one step at a time...I'll see how happy I am with a little less reflections from the ceiling.

 

[hopkins]

The madness continues...

I doubled the basotect foam and tried to place them around the first reflection points of the ceiling - hard to do my myself...



If I decided to go for such a system I am going to have to think hard about a fast and simple way to install and remove panels without having to climb on a ladder each time... Seems tricky.

I also put basotect foam on the floor at the first reflection points. May as well explore all options...



This is obviously calculated to work only at my listening position.

It is too late at night to take measurements. Listening impressions are very good, but I could be tricked by a number of things:
- expectation bias
- a quieter listening environment late at night (I listened an hour earlier without all this)
- my speakers seem to always like 15-30 minutes to play optimally...

I will leave these in place (on the ceiling) this week then take them off (after some measurements) and see if I get the same listening impressions after.

I am not an expert with REW measurements. I got confused in my earlier statements about impulse response...I don't think variations of RT6O is what I am looking for. What is the best way, if any, to capture changes in early reflections - ETC? I would be greatful for any pointers.

 

[Cellcbern]

The madness continues...

I doubled the basotect foam and tried to place them around the first reflection points of the ceiling - hard to do my myself...

View attachment 109412

If I decided to go for such a system I am going to have to think hard about a fast and simple way to install and remove panels without having to climb on a ladder each time... Seems tricky.

I also put basotect foam on the floor at the first reflection points.

View attachment 109413

This is obviously calculated to work only at my listening position. Why not ?

It is too late at night to take measurements. Listening impressions are very good, but I could be tricked by a number of things:
- expectation bias
- a quieter listening environment late at night (I listened an hour earlier without all this)
- my speakers seem to always like 15-30 minutes to play optimally...

I will leave these in place (on the ceiling) this week then take them off (after some measurements) and see if I get the same listening impressions after.


I am not an expert with REW measurements. I don't think variations of RT6O is what I am looking for. What is the best way, if any, to capture changes in early reflections - ETC? I would be greatful for any pointers.

I thought you were constrained by aesthetics?

The best way to capture changes in early reflections is with your ears.

 

[pjwd]

The madness continues...

I doubled the basotect foam and tried to place them around the first reflection points of the ceiling - hard to do my myself...

View attachment 109412

If I decided to go for such a system I am going to have to think hard about a fast and simple way to install and remove panels without having to climb on a ladder each time...

I also put basotect foam on the floor at the first reflection points.

View attachment 109413

This is obviously calculated to work only at my listening position. Why not ?

It is too late at night to take measurements. Listening impressions are very good, but I could be tricked by a number of things:
- expectation bias
- a quieter listening environment late at night (I listened an hour earlier without all this)
- my speakers seem to always like 15-30 minutes to play optimally...

I will leave these in place (on the ceiling) this week then take them off (after some measurements) and see if I get the same listening impressions after.


I am not an expert with REW measurements. I don't think variations of RT6O is what I am looking for. What is the best way, if any, to capture changes in early reflections - ETC? I would be greatful for any pointers.

You are going all in ! Bravo
For reflection points I think impulse would be good ... but I am not sure as you will still get low fr reflections... perhaps impulse peaks are smaller
These treatments show up better in listening and it should be very clear
Thanks for dimensions... will have a look later today
It is possible to build elegant versions of this ... no judgement on your temp install
Phil

 

[hopkins]

I thought you were constrained by aesthetics?

The best way to capture changes in early reflections is with your ears.

Yes, I can’t keep these things up permanently, and therefore they need to be quickly and easily installed and removed. Small magnets on the ceiling are possible... I cannot put panels everywhere in my living room (even removeable ones, as it would be too tedious). This system seems to offer, so far, the best "bang for the buck", so to speak. Flat ceiling panels would be very hard to install/remove, and having permanent flat panels is not really an option.

My ears are pleased so far (but I’ll have to confirm with further listening sessions).

 

[Cellcbern]

Yes, I can’t keep these things up permanently, and therefore they need to be quickly and easily installed and removed. Small magnets on the ceiling are possible... I cannot put panels everywhere in my living room (even removeable ones, as it would be too tedious). This system seems to offer, so far, the best "bang for the buck", so to speak. Flat ceiling panels would be very hard to install/remove, and having permanent flat panels is not really an option.

My ears are pleased so far (but I’ll have to confirm with further listening sessions).

Don’t understand why you have them hanging down perpendicular to the ceiling instead of parallel to the ceiling (like 99% of the ceiling panels you’ll see images of if you google “listening room ceiling absorbers”, or diffusers). You wouldn’t do that with a wall panel because you wouldn’t get the necessary sf of coverage. Same thing applies to the ceiling. And if they were parallel with an air gap couldn’t they be unobtrusive enough to remain up permanently?

 

[pjwd]

Don’t understand why you have them hanging down perpendicular to the ceiling instead of parallel to the ceiling (like 99% of the ceiling panels you’ll see images of if you google “listening room ceiling absorbers”, or diffusers). You wouldn’t do that with a wall panel because you wouldn’t get the necessary sf of coverage. Same thing applies to the ceiling. And if they were parallel with an air gap couldn’t they be unobtrusive enough to remain up permanently?

Actually 99% are vertical if you spread your gaze away from listening rooms..there are vast commercial applications
Room acoustics have been left behind
This is a mostly non diffusive reflection control and there are lots of reasons it works better than straight up diffusers or absorbers ... although it has its limitations as well .. trade offs everywhere

 

[Cellcbern]

Actually 99% are vertical if you spread your gaze away from listening rooms..there are vast commercial applications
Room acoustics have been left behind
This is a mostly non diffusive reflection control and there are lots of reasons it works better than straight up diffusers or absorbers ... although it has its limitations as well .. trade offs everywhere

You and I must do math differently:

recording studio/mastering lab ceiling acoustical panels - Google Search

 

[pjwd]

You and I must do math differently:

recording studio/mastering lab ceiling acoustical panels - Google Search

 

[pjwd]

Widen the search

pet panel ceiling baffles - Google Search

 

[Cellcbern]

Widen the search

pet panel ceiling baffles - Google Search

Why would I do that when pet panel ceiling baffles don't show up in a search of either home listening room or pro studio ceiling acoustical treatments? They are used in gyms, cafeterias, meeting rooms - etc, which is what shows up in your link above. They are not for music rooms and I would not recommend them to a fellow audiophile. It should not surprise anyone that Acoustic Fields, Arqen, ASC, DHDI, GIK, Realtraps, RPG, Vicoustic, etc. don't offer pet panel ceiling baffles - they only offer panels that are placed parallel to the ceiling.

 

[pjwd]

Why would I do that when pet panel ceiling baffles don't show up in a search of either home listening room or pro studio acoustical treatments? They are used in gyms, cafeterias, meeting rooms - etc, which is what shows up in your link above. I would not recommend them to a fellow audiophile.

I am not recommending them to you and its fine if you dont think they work ... they are very effective, low cost and can look more elegant than all the traditional stuff ... they are not perfect but nothing is

 

[Gregm]

Presumably you've already thought of this -- but, have you tried a diffusion panel behind the speakers?
I noticed the curtains on either side and, judging by your Gordon Lightfoot vid, they work. (However, I can't hear the bass)

 

[hopkins]

Presumably you've already thought of this -- but, have you tried a diffusion panel behind the speakers?
I noticed the curtains on either side and, judging by your Gordon Lightfoot vid, they work. (However, I can't hear the bass)

I did try diffusion behind the speakers, but it does not address (as significantly) the first reflections of the ceiling and floor, and those seem to be most critical to my ears.

Vis à vis bass, you are right, and there are several limiting factors in my room/system, the main one being that my speakers don't do "deep bass" - I would have to add subs, which is something I could do, obviously, but I do not feel that is is a priority and do not want the added costs and complexity, for the time being. The bass that I do have is now cleaner with improved speaker placement (strictly related to room modes) - less resonance in the bass improves the rest of the spectrum as well.

I cannot address everything at once. Bass is a whole world of problems in and of itself - if I am going to go there, I'll want to do it right. The very idea of researching subwoofers is a headache for me at this point.

If you listen to the Suncoast video of the Gordon Lightfoot track you'll notice that bass is quite weak as well, in spite of the speakers which have large woofers (I assume that the sub-woofers in the back are not on). But there are other aspects that are more disturbing, in my honest opinon. Could be due to the recording/mic placement, I don't know.