advice sought, turntables $10-20k

[Ricco275]

So my question is, acceptably good will be an LP12 fine tuned by a good vinyl tech who has no experience with Linn?
I had a dealer in Paris very well known for his top high end offer, especially on analogue, to upgrade my LP12 as a personal favour. I can hear the impact of replacing Kore with Keel, tonearm Linn T cable with chord Sarum T cable, and upgrading to radikal2. Would the result I’m hearing possibly be bad because who made the work hasn’t worked on an LP12 before even if he is knowledgeable on a large array of decks?

 

[Another Johnson]

So my question is, acceptably good will be an LP12 fine tuned by a good vinyl tech who has no experience with Linn?
I had a dealer in Paris very well known for his top high end offer, especially on analogue, to upgrade my LP12 as a personal favour. I can hear the impact of replacing Kore with Keel, tonearm Linn T cable with chord Sarum T cable, and upgrading to radikal2. Would the result I’m hearing possibly be bad because who made the work hasn’t worked on an LP12 before even if he is knowledgeable on a large array of decks?

In my opinion, based on my personal experience, it is easy to put one together if the goal is to have a nice functional turntable. But the true wizards coax far more out than just good.

I was a VPI dealer when I got my first LP12. The US importer in Indianapolis sent me the setup manual. I digested it and was very happy with my first setup. But in retrospect, in spite of my experience as a motorcycle mechanic and a local turntable guru, years of professional experience in experimental and analytical acoustics and vibrations, I am sure it could have been better. Fast forward to my introduction to Peter Swain. I made a Great Leap Forward based on his sharing.

Fast forward again. I watched Tom O’Keefe do my decks in late 2022 and early 2023. I have not tried to duplicate Tom’s tricks, but he had several.

His care with the tuning of the suspension was beyond anything I’d ever seen. He brought new meaning to the Linn target of “a true pistonic bounce.” He also clearly demonstrated his ability to clock the platter. And most curiously, he has experimentally determined torques that sound best for nearly every fixing on the deck.

I was very skeptical about his methods before I experienced them. You could hear the transformation of the sound quality. He plays the same Steely Dan track over and over and over again as he iteratively adjusts things.

Some decks come into focus in two hours of work. Others may take three, four or more as he works through his stock of springs. He is patient. Most importantly, he knows what can be achieved and he is not done until he gets there.

A guy who’s done one is like me 40 years ago … happy with the job, but blissfully ignorant of the true potential.

 

[Ricco275]

In my opinion, based on my personal experience, it is easy to put one together if the goal is to have a nice functional turntable. But the true wizards coax far more out than just good.

I was a VPI dealer when I got my first LP12. The US importer in Indianapolis sent me the setup manual. I digested it and was very happy with my first setup. But in retrospect, in spite of my experience as a motorcycle mechanic and a local turntable guru, years of professional experience in experimental and analytical acoustics and vibrations, I am sure it could have been better. Fast forward to my introduction to Peter Swain. I made a Great Leap Forward based on his sharing.

Fast forward again. I watched Tom O’Keefe do my decks in late 2022 and early 2023. I have not tried to duplicate Tom’s tricks, but he had several.

His care with the tuning of the suspension was beyond anything I’d ever seen. He brought new meaning to the Linn target of “a true pistonic bounce.” He also clearly demonstrated his ability to clock the platter. And most curiously, he has experimentally determined torques that sound best for nearly every fixing on the deck.

I was very skeptical about his methods before I experienced them. You could hear the transformation of the sound quality. He plays the same Steely Dan track over and over and over again as he iteratively adjusts things.

Some decks come into focus in two hours of work. Others may take three, four or more as he works through his stock of springs. He is patient. Most importantly, he knows what can be achieved and he is not done until he gets there.

A guy who’s done one is like me 40 years ago … happy with the job, but blissfully ignorant of the true potential.

Need to invite Peter over to Paris then.

 

[Another Johnson]

Need to invite Peter over to Paris then.

I personally think this would be revealing if he is still doing in situ consulting. I would love to hear your impressions after such a visit.

 

[Another Johnson]

An interesting tidbit about Tom’s in-store workstation was that he monitored the changes in the setup on a pair of PSB Alpha A/V speakers. His changes were clearly audible even using this modest system. When I got home and installed the deck in my far more resolving system, the results were stunning.

 

[wbass]

OP here with a (rather belated) update on my TT hunt. I've actually ended up adding not one but two new decks, both bought secondhand for reasonable sums:

--STST Motus (the non-suspended, larger plinth version for 12" arms)

--TechDAS AirForce V (not the Premium model)

Annoyingly, I won't have these in my possession for a couple months yet, as I'm moving apartments, so no impressions yet. My current thoughts as to how I'll run them:

--STST with my Schroeder CB-1L and a recently acquired Soundsmith Sussurro Mk2. STST seems to frequently exhibit with Schroeder arms and Frank Schroeder helped design the Sussurro, so there seems a high possibility for some nice synergy here.

--Airforce V with my Kuzma 4 Point 14 and CAR40 cart. Not much to say here, other than that I really liked the 4 Point 14 on my SP10mk2 set-up, and the CAR40 is an obvious match. I'll probably just go with Audio Antiquary armboards. Not much interest in paying $$$ for the official TechDAS boards.

Eventually, I'd like to add another arm in the rear position.

I might try my Groovemaster 12J there with the SPU Synergy G I had on it previously. Though I sort of prefer how that arm looks on my modded Garrard 401. Just seems to match the vibe of that table.

I've also got my eye on an Ikea 407 or a Fidelity Research 66 variant, in part b/c they seem like such classics and ideal for SPUs. But, on the other hand, I'm also keen to play around with vintage MM carts, and so I'm toying with picking up an SME Series II improved or III cheap and seeing what it can do.

I recognize there's an argument for selling all of the above tables and just getting one super table, etc. But, then, I like playing around with different arms and carts. That's half the fun for me. It's nice that the TechDAS can take four arms, and I see folks run them that way. But, for me, it's too cluttered feeling, and I dislike cueing a record from an arm on the left-side or front position. So, it overall makes sense, currently, for me to have multiple arms on multiple tables. But I might well streamline somewhere down the line.

Anyway, a bit of an update! Thanks again to all for the suggestions along the way.

 

[SONDEKNZ]

“…Aside from the fact that NO global revenues accrue to Linn for requiring the authorized dealer to set it up…”

My point was (is) that LP12 tune-up services constitute a significant portion of revenues for LINN dealerships - a big part of helping to make an “exclusive” LINN DEALERSHIP (traditionally, the strong LINN preference…) financially viable in this day and age.

In this way, increased LINN dealership revenues and financial viability is an indirect, but important “win” for LINN.

I do agree that in its traditional configuration, the LP12 sound quality is very much at the mercy of correct initial set-up and regular tune-ups.

Replacing the LINN springs with silicone mushrooms not only delivers immediate and significant sonic gains in the LP12, but virtually removes the need for the above mentioned “regular tune-ups”.

I also agree with you that empirical evidence is the highest form of truth. With that in mind, I encourage all LP12 owners to try the springless option for themselves, before dismissing it.

 

[Another Johnson]

My point was (is) that LP12 tune-up services constitute a significant portion of revenues for LINN dealerships - a big part of helping to make an “exclusive” LINN DEALERSHIP (traditionally, the strong LINN preference…) financially viable in this day and age.

In this way, increased LINN dealership revenues and financial viability is an indirect, but important “win” for LINN.

I do agree that in its traditional configuration, the LP12 sound quality is very much at the mercy of correct initial set-up and regular tune-ups.

Replacing the LINN springs with silicone mushrooms not only delivers immediate and significant sonic gains in the LP12, but virtually removes the need for the above mentioned “regular tune-ups”.

I also agree with you that empirical evidence is the highest form of truth. With that in mind, I encourage all LP12 owners to try the springless option for themselves, before dismissing it.

It may be true where you live, so I won’t argue about it. In my experience, setup is built into the price of the unit. That has been their business model. The dealer is supposed to sell at no discount, but then support the product 100% including the installation and setup. I know of no dealers who are using setup as a means of gouging customers for profit in my part of the world. Linn margins are small by industry standards. The LP12 is their most difficult product to support. Many Linn dealers do not have the LP12 as part of their franchise. And the TT market is generally not a huge part of any dealer’s revenues.

After the sale, on a subsequent setup, the cost appears to me to be quite modest. Tom charges $300 and he supplies the routine parts, like springs, grommets, and oil. He also supplies a written report, including stylus inspection on a high powered microscope, and sets that up too.

Certainly anyone who has a mediocre or home brew Linn setup could try the mushrooms with little risk. Same is true for other aftermarket parts, like those from Edmund in Hong Kong. You can buy power supplies, subchasses, platters, plinths, bearing kits … The LP12 is the perfect test bed for the whole world of hot rod parts. It’s good fun. I went through this phase on two of my scratch builds. Peter Swain used to routinely build units with aftermarket parts for side by side comparison in his store. He had 18 LP12s in various states, to show off any issue you liked, and he was always ready to mount another cartridge for audition.

it is nice to have choices.

 

[Ricco275]

It may be true where you live, so I won’t argue about it. In my experience, setup is built into the price of the unit. That has been their business model. The dealer is supposed to sell at no discount, but then support the product 100% including the installation and setup. I know of no dealers who are using setup as a means of gouging customers for profit in my part of the world. Linn margins are small by industry standards. The LP12 is their most difficult product to support. Many Linn dealers do not have the LP12 as part of their franchise. And the TT market is generally not a huge part of any dealer’s revenues.

After the sale, on a subsequent setup, the cost appears to me to be quite modest. Tom charges $300 and he supplies the routine parts, like springs, grommets, and oil. He also supplies a written report, including stylus inspection on a high powered microscope, and sets that up too.

Certainly anyone who has a mediocre or home brew Linn setup could try the mushrooms with little risk. Same is true for other aftermarket parts, like those from Edmund in Hong Kong. You can buy power supplies, subchasses, platters, plinths, bearing kits … The LP12 is the perfect test bed for the whole world of hot rod parts. It’s good fun. I went through this phase on two of my scratch builds. Peter Swain used to routinely build units with aftermarket parts for side by side comparison in his store. He had 18 LP12s in various states, to show off any issue you liked, and he was always ready to mount another cartridge for audition.

it is nice to have choices.

Where the ones with aftermarket upgrade up to the pure Linn ones?
The issue in most cities and countries is the lack of well trained technicians. In Paris France is a big issue, at least for me. The only expert moved to south of France.

 

[Another Johnson]

Where the ones with aftermarket upgrade up to the pure Linn ones?
The issue in most cities and countries is the lack of well trained technicians. In Paris France is a big issue, at least for me. The only expert moved to south of France.

The best to my ears, with me as the technician, have mostly been with the Linn parts.

Exceptions are that Edmund’s Hercules power supply is a legitimate upgrade over the Linn Valhalla, and Edmund’s Mober Maxon power supply gets close to the original Radikal, for a fraction of the cost. But the Radikal is better.

Preferences are personal.
My main LP12 is 100% stock, except for the Chris Harbin built Woburn Abby oak plinth.
My other LP12 is stock at a lower and vintage level, but I like the Mober Maxon power supply well enough to use it in that application.

 

[AudioAbe]

--STST with my Schroeder CB-1L and a recently acquired Soundsmith Sussurro Mk2. STST seems to frequently exhibit with Schroeder arms and Frank Schroeder helped design the Sussurro, so there seems a high possibility for some nice synergy here.

STST with Schroeder and Soundsmith should be a fantastic combination. Apparently STST are Peter Ledermann's favourite turntables. The Soundsmith room at Munich last year featured two of them: https://parttimeaudiophile.com/2023/05/26/the-soundsmith-system-munich-2023/

 

[wbass]

STST with Schroeder and Soundsmith should be a fantastic combination. Apparently STST are Peter Ledermann's favourite turntables. The Soundsmith room at Munich last year featured two of them: https://parttimeaudiophile.com/2023/05/26/the-soundsmith-system-munich-2023/

Yes, it makes sense to me to hew to what the makers themselves are pairing. I suppose they have certain limitations, themselves, on the partnerships they can make, but I can't think they'd work with components that don't flatter their products either.

Funny thing is that I just picked up the above semi-randomly when they popped up on the secondhand market and wasn't aiming for anything than high-value components with good reps. So, it's happenstance, but lucky happenstance, that I arrived where I did.

 

[wbass]

Wondering if anyone has any suggestions on low mass tonearms. For experimenting with vintage MM carts.

Plenty of threads on Audiogon and the like about the latter, but a little less on arms suitable for high compliance and low tracking weight.

Right now, I have this as a working list:

--SME Series III
--SME Series II Improved
--Denon DA-401
--Grace G707
--ADC LMF-1 and LMF-2
--Mission 774
--Audio-Technica AT-1100 (same as Signet XK50)

--the new 9" Ortofon arms seem to be low-mass?
--and the new Supratrac arms (9" version) can be run light?
--Clearaudio Tracer (9.5g)

 

[standingwave]

Not considering J Sikora?

 

[wbass]

Not considering J Sikora?

I'm assuming this question for me, as the original poster.

A few posts above, I mention that I recently added a couple new decks, so now I have the following. I recognize there's an argument for, say, trading them all in and getting a super table, like the Sikora or Vyger, etc. But I'd like to play around with what I've got first. Which is:

--STST Motus // CB-1L
--AirForce V // 4-Point 14
--Garrard 401 with some Artisan Fidelity mods // GrooveMaster 12-J
--SP10mk2 // Jelco 850M and L

All were bought for good prices on the secondhand market. Looking forward to having fun with all.

I'd like to add a low effective mass to the AirForce V, to experiment with vintage MM carts.

 

[bazelio]

In this price range, I've heard the Kuzma Stabi R sounding fantastic several times. The Dynavector XV-1T makes it really sing.

 

[bonzo75]

I'm assuming this question for me, as the original poster.

A few posts above, I mention that I recently added a couple new decks, so now I have the following. I recognize there's an argument for, say, trading them all in and getting a super table, like the Sikora or Vyger, etc. But I'd like to play around with what I've got first. Which is:

--STST Motus // CB-1L
--AirForce V // 4-Point 14
--Garrard 401 with some Artisan Fidelity mods // GrooveMaster 12-J
--SP10mk2 // Jelco 850M and L

All were bought for good prices on the secondhand market. Looking forward to having fun with all.

I'd like to add a low effective mass to the AirForce V, to experiment with vintage MM carts.

i would go with the Motus II or the 401 of those. Technics not for me too stop start digital

 

[wbass]

i would go with the Motus II or the 401 of those. Technics not for me too stop start digital

To clarify, I currently have all four of the tables listed. They're none of them set-up at the moment, as I'm in the process of buying a new flat, but I plan to have them all running at some point. I will probably make the AirForce V and the STST my primaries and move the 401 and the SP10mk2 to a secondary system. Or winnow things down and sell off what I don't need.

I've never personally heard the cogging issue with Technics, so it doesn't bother me, and I really like the convenience of how fast the SP10mk2 starts and stops. With the ability to use pretty much any arm you like, I think it's a great daily driver.

But I'll also admit I've yet to compare it to the Motus and other, higher-end direct drives.

@bonzo75 You recommending the Motus was part of the reason I sought one out, so thanks for that.

 

[bonzo75]

But I'll also admit I've yet to compare it to the Motus and other, higher-end direct drives.

@bonzo75 You recommending the Motus was part of the reason I sought one out, so thanks for that.

Keep in mind the motus I recommend is the II, suspended DD, which is good value for money. Also I don’t know what inflation has done to its price since 2018.

the other good value is the Feickert Firebird.

Brinkmann or AF3p etc will be better than them but you are going up in price

 

[djsina2]

--AirForce V // 4-Point 14

For the low cost you should try a ViV with the AF5.