All that is wrong with "HiFi"

This is a subject that has driven me crazy, especially since the obsessive drive for more "detail" has risen to insane proportions. But the departure from "musically correct" reproduction didn't begin there.

No. It actually began with the use of high feedback in the pursuit of vanishingly low harmonic distortion. This inturn led to the focus of designing solely by numbers as a dominating criteria instead of listening to what truly sounds good, and what doesn't. This has proven to be a mistake time and time again, but few have seemed to learn from it.

What I hear when I listen to the majority of modern hifi components and systems is a bright, hard and fatiguing presentation, often bordering on severe stridency while being harmonically distorted and/or threadbare, and noticeably lacking in musically engaging qualities. What you end up with is an over-hyped sonic microscope that is overly detailed and brutally revealing of everything that is wrong with the recording.

The problem compounding this is that nearly all of the so-called hifi components that I have heard over the last 40 years clearly displays one or more of the above traits to the level of distraction, especially since the majority of them often possess distorted and/or unrefined high frequencies. You may not be able to hear it as well as I do, but I am really sensitive to it.

To sum up this rant, I would like to say that I am looking to form a conglomerate of audio-oriented manufacturing associates with the goal of producing more musically correct components at reasonable prices.

 

Digital cars digital music
Welcome to the world.

 

I see original poster said his objective make component both sound correct and reasonable price, we might drift from that.

Like what exactly? This discussion can lead to too many and different things. Is goal produce same current medium but improved, or new different, or same old analog components (which i want), or what else!

I can only extract analog, but how possibly achieve it! With crazy high, expensive, greedy companies!

I mention in my earlier post about mid 90’s, I'm pointing towered significant event in hi fi history, turning point which lead to current problem, when we sew first time new stuff and very expensive price, almost like buying house!

Component or interconnect or speaker cable or power cord cost up to $15.000! The disease spread to analog as well: vinyl TT or cartridge up to $14000!

How possible a component have nothing but cheap: metal, copper, rubber, … become like this! In fact there is BIG scam toxic everyone, even the supporters are victims as well!

 

there is a solution that IMHO would serve many and may even save some money....DIY
Along with some tinkering (and most of it really is not at the level of rocket science) you learn to develop listening skills that bring you further ahead as you also learn how materials and methods affect sound.

Manufacturers are in this for business, try do the math for selling some exotic stuff. (been there done that). A piece of great sounding, snake oil free, handmade cable with like 200/300 (euro/dollar) of decent stuff inside for a stereo pair will cost (depending on cable geometry) like 4-5 hours to make.
It'll set a customer back close to a thousand (euro/dollar). The maker may earn 30%, the dealer typically puts 50% on top of that (go figure what happens when there is an importer/wholeseller involved), and then sales tax goes on top of that. That situation is not any different for your washing machine etc. Taking into account how little folks you may know that are using cables north of 1K versus the amount of folks without a washing machine the view on pricing may change IMHO.

There is a place for the ultra high end too, for some DIY is not an option or need, for some it's just that they 'want that one' and can afford it. It does not make your own options for great sound that much smaller, through DIY it's possible to achieve the same level of gear.
At ETF I heard quite a few sets that sounded truly better than whatever (but for like three exceptions) at High End Munich two years ago, the majority of what I heard there started at the expensive of around 100K.

There are options , there is DIY, there is buying used gear and there is vintage gear (think old) as options...the well known great stuff stuff commands top dollar as well but there is plenty if lesser known gear out there that is affordable and very good.

For anyone on a mission to sell great sounding gear for around 1K per component I'd say kudo's and good luck as I like the idea, yet would caution to have a look at the large companies. I suspect it may be possible as a 'cottage industry' but getting stuff like CE and UL covered alone is a major effort.


Legendary Japanese hi-fi brand Onkyo files for bankruptcyOnkyo has called it a day after 76 years making hi-fi, unable to meet shifting consumer demand.

 

So do I. For a long time they were my favorite band and I would say things like "Ray Davies is the greatest rock lyricist of all time." Which may still be true although I rarely listen to rock anymore. (Elvis Costello is number 2.) I had a collection of every Kinks album released in the US, up through 'Everybody's in Show Business' (meh) until I lost it in The Great Basement Flood of 1995 - the end of era.

Ray Davies is definitely one of the greatest rock lyricists of all time, I agree. The Kinks made a great comeback in 1977 with the album Sleepwalker (I also think it's wonderful). Their follow-ups from 1978 and 1979, Misfits and Low Budget, are also well regarded.

Sorry about the basement flood loss.

 

For a long time they were my favorite band and I would say things like "Ray Davies is the greatest rock lyricist of all time."

Hi Tim,

What is your favorite recording of "Lola"?

Thank you.

 

Hi Tim,

What is your favorite recording of "Lola"?

Thank you.

Is there more than one album?

Lola Versus Powerman And The Moneygoround, Part One
Reprise Records RS 6423,

 

So do I. For a long time they were my favorite band and I would say things like "Ray Davies is the greatest rock lyricist of all time." Which may still be true although I rarely listen to rock anymore. (Elvis Costello is number 2.) I had a collection of every Kinks album released in the US, up through 'Everybody's in Show Business' (meh) until I lost it in The Great Basement Flood of 1995 - the end of era.

I've started to listen to some Kinks albums. They were before my time, but were a local band. In the 1980s I lived opposite Waterlow Park, which apparently was Ray Davies' idea of a village green. What I remember of Waterlow Park, and I still go there sometimes, is that it's next to a psychiatric hospital and back in those days they used to take the crazies there for a walkabout. They were easy to spot. Fortis Green is 10 minutes down the road, but there is nothing green about it. The Davies lived next to the Clissold Arms pub which has a Kinks Room, apparently that's where they started, sadly the last time I went there was for the barmitzvah party of a friend's son, he was extremely mentally unwell and committed suicide 2 weeks later. The good news is the son got engaged last week to marry a lovely girl from New York. Our local record shop owner, Alan, is a big fan and has over 1,000 Kinks records and pieces of memorabilia. They do make me laugh, I put them along with Ian Dury.

 

Is there more than one album?

Lola Versus Powerman And The Moneygoround, Part One
Reprise Records RS 6423,

Thank you very much!

 

Ray Davies is definitely one of the greatest rock lyricists of all time, I agree. The Kinks made a great comeback in 1977 with the album Sleepwalker (I also think it's wonderful). Their follow-ups from 1978 and 1979, Misfits and Low Budget, are also well regarded.

Sorry about the basement flood loss.

Yes, we agree !

Ray's concept albums before that time were ingenious and very British:
- Village Green Preservation Society - 1968
- Arthur Or The Decline and Fall Of The British Empire - 1969
- Muswell Hillbillies - 1971
- Preservation Act 1 1973 and Preservation Act 2 1974
- Soap Opera - 1975
- SchoolBoys in Disgrace - 1975
He was a master of starting out slow with kind of a ballad and ending up with a ripping rocker.




A sample from my system ...

Who's that groovy looking dude dancing with all the chicks?

 

A very wide ranging conversation that I must admit I have only been intermittently following.

I was reading a show review on a field coil horn system with tube amps and Thoren's TD 124. The reviewer loved the system as apparently did many show attendees. A sophisticated but not inexpensive update of what one might call some classic designs.

I was stuck by his summary statement about the room; "There was no high-end audio there, just music."

It kind of resonated with me. Take from it what you may.

 

A sample from my system ...
Who's that groovy looking dude dancing with all the chicks?

Nice. Also here masterful lyrics! Very meaningful.

(I find it very practical that you can Google any song's lyrics for reading them easily.)

 

Ik ben begonnen met het luisteren naar een aantal Kinks-albums. Ze waren van voor mijn tijd, maar waren een lokale band. In de jaren 80 woonde ik tegenover Waterlow Park, wat het idee van Ray Davies van een dorpsplein was. Wat ik me herinner van Waterlow Park, en ik ga er soms nog steeds heen, is dat het naast een psychiatrisch ziekenhuis ligt en in die tijd namen ze de gekken daar mee naartoe voor een wandeling. Ze waren gemakkelijk te spotten. Fortis Green ligt 10 minuten verderop, maar daar is niets groens aan. De Davies woonden naast de Clissold Arms-pub met een Kinks Room, opvallend ze daar begonnen, helaas was de laatste keer dat ik er was voor het barmitzvah-feest van de zoon van een vriend, hij was extreem mentaal ziek en pleegde 2 weken later zelfmoord. Het goede nieuws is dat de zoon vorige week verloofd is met een lief meisje uit New York. Onze lokale platenzaakeigenaar, Alan, is een grote fan en meer dan 1.000 Kinks-platen en memorabilia. Ze doen me wel lachen, ik zet ze naast Ian Dury.

 

there is a solution that IMHO would serve many and may even save some money....DIY
Along with some tinkering (and most of it really is not at the level of rocket science) you learn to develop listening skills that bring you further ahead as you also learn how materials and methods affect sound.

Manufacturers are in this for business, try do the math for selling some exotic stuff. (been there done that). A piece of great sounding, snake oil free, handmade cable with like 200/300 (euro/dollar) of decent stuff inside for a stereo pair will cost (depending on cable geometry) like 4-5 hours to make.
It'll set a customer back close to a thousand (euro/dollar). The maker may earn 30%, the dealer typically puts 50% on top of that (go figure what happens when there is an importer/wholeseller involved), and then sales tax goes on top of that. That situation is not any different for your washing machine etc. Taking into account how little folks you may know that are using cables north of 1K versus the amount of folks without a washing machine the view on pricing may change IMHO.

There is a place for the ultra high end too, for some DIY is not an option or need, for some it's just that they 'want that one' and can afford it. It does not make your own options for great sound that much smaller, through DIY it's possible to achieve the same level of gear.
At ETF I heard quite a few sets that sounded truly better than whatever (but for like three exceptions) at High End Munich two years ago, the majority of what I heard there started at the expensive of around 100K.

There are options , there is DIY, there is buying used gear and there is vintage gear (think old) as options...the well known great stuff stuff commands top dollar as well but there is plenty if lesser known gear out there that is affordable and very good.

For anyone on a mission to sell great sounding gear for around 1K per component I'd say kudo's and good luck as I like the idea, yet would caution to have a look at the large companies. I suspect it may be possible as a 'cottage industry' but getting stuff like CE and UL covered alone is a major effort.
Legendary Japanese hi-fi brand Onkyo files for bankruptcyOnkyo has called it a day after 76 years making hi-fi, unable to meet shifting consumer demand.

Regarding good gear at reasonable prices from established companies, there are kits that are DIY but don't require soldering skills (which broadens the market): https://www.diyclassd.com/products/diy-amplifier-kits/ This company is part of Hypex, the company that also sells direct-to-consumer amp modules without the casework (also has a vibrant OEM market for their modules) and the higher end Mola Mola brand which has the usual high-end distribution system.

Schitt Audio (direct to consumer) has some excellent gear at very reasonable prices: https://www.schiit.com/products I tried one of their DACs when my (then) Mola Mola Tambaqui needed servicing and was flabbergasted by the sound quality for the price. They continue to innovate while keeping prices low.

As some have said, the high end might indeed be in for a reckoning. You mentioned the problems at Onkyo. There are similar issues at Devialet and the company that owns Bowers and Wilkins (and Denon, Marantz). Perhaps we need a refresher course in price elasticity and supply and demand.

 

sure, there are great kits for every level out there too!

I'm not sure if price elasticity is the main issue for manufacturers, there are changes in how 'the youth' is listening to music that are incompatible with serious audio

 

I'm not sure if price elasticity is the main issue for manufacturers, there are changes in how 'the youth' is listening to music that are incompatible with serious audio

I assume that is true, but not certain. I've spoken with some millennial music enthusiasts who prefer vinyl. Well, some young women are now into bell bottom jeans too. Same trend?

I've read opinions about how the high-end should attract youth, but these opinion usually come from folks who are part of "the establishment." Has anyone asked the young folks what they want?

I often find the prices of the high-end ridiculous, even when I can afford it. Can't imagine those prices appeal much to folks just starting out in their careers, unless they are into crypto and buying bananas for $6 million each.

 

problem with speaking to 'some millenial music enthusiasts'is that there is serious risc of selection bias...

being a music enthusiast is not closely related to giving a toss about sound quality, we have two teenagers who both are 'into music' in the house and both are perfectly OK listening to music on a screaming cell phone speaker that makes me shudder in seconds, both have visisted plenty of live performances to know how music can sound.

I was not referring to any 'crazy' high end price tags, there is loads of great sound to be had for FAR less $$$, yet it takes one to know one...

 

problem with speaking to 'some millenial music enthusiasts'is that there is serious risc of selection bias...

being a music enthusiast is not closely related to giving a toss about sound quality, we have two teenagers who both are 'into music' in the house and both are perfectly OK listening to music on a screaming cell phone speaker that makes me shudder in seconds, both have visisted plenty of live performances to know how music can sound.

I was not referring to any 'crazy' high end price tags, there is loads of great sound to be had for FAR less $$$, yet it takes one to know one...

you are correct about selection bias.

It is interesting that your teens prefer the cell phone speaker, although not shocking. Very different from my own experience many years ago. My father had a mono setup with kit-based tubed electronics and that got me interested in music (primarily classical because that is what he played). It was never about the gear. But that big and bold presentation stayed with me. Like a live performance.

I always assumed that DNA was a factor. But your teenagers make me wonder about that assumption.

 

IMHO it's more about convenience and absolute 'consumerism' than DNA to be honest...they know how it CAN sound, they just do not care enough to make any effort beyond 'clicking the track'..

That may well change over time, listening has a learning curve...my best friends son is now into serious sound, after the initial bout with crappy sound.

 

There is a website I often visit called headfi
I’m not sure this is a totality of youth ,
But most people I see are more interested in personal audio.
Be it digital or vinyl.
5k gets you into multiple setups 10k is high end personal audio.
I don’t who buys the high end we post about
but my thoughts are more about status or pride of ownership.
maybe I'm just too old to care. but if one spends 500k on a system who sets them up
Who picked them out to work well as a system.

 

head-fi is indeed about personal audio, yet these folks are already into sound quality.