Ron is still fussing over Nat Magmas LOL.
I can only imagine what 170W of triodes magic would do w the Boticellis.
I can only imagine what 170W of triodes magic would do w the Boticellis.
Alsyvox planars...prepare to sell your Magico's, YG's, Wilson's, Cessaro's. Maggie's, and all others!!
- Thread starter DaveyF
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You're already pretty much in planar land with the Pendagrons: "· Wideband, dipolar thin-film planar magnetic, line source ribbon driver" from 200 Hz to 18Khz. That's the entire phase localize-able midrange plus most of the upper midrange/treble.
The bass drivers cover the non-localize-able upper bass and lower bass and the tweeters add air. Assuming reasonably cohesive crossovers and drivers, a full planar design wouldn't seem to offer much over that arrangement.
The Bohlender Grabener planar magnetic driver does have the same kind of dynamic snap as these Nd powered planars. I had them in a DIY design and heard various Genesis and Wisdom Audio models with the same BG driver. It’s good and transparent but not lifelike , IMO. The new Alsyvox has potential I think.
Did you mean does not . . .?
(That would make sense to me given how much more sensitive the Alsyvox is than the Pendragon or the Genesis 1.1/Prime.)
That is what makes horse racing.
I like the sound of the BG ribbon driver as the full-range driver in the Pendragon and as the midrange driver in the Genesis 1.1/Prime.*
PS: If by lifelike you are referring to the reproduction of the sound of brass instruments then I totally agree with you. Nothing in my experience comes as close to horns at reproducing realistically the sound of brass instruments. (Hence my view that if one's main musical interest in jazz than for sure horns are the answer.)
* It is no coincidence that both the Pendragon and the big Genesis are two of my very favorite speakers. The Pendragon was designed with the Infinity IRS V in mind -- to be a simplified, modernized re-imagining of the IRS V.
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That is what makes horse racing.
I like the sound of the BG ribbon driver as the full-range driver in the Pendragon and as the midrange driver in the Genesis 1.1/Prime.*
PS: If by lifelike you are referring to the reproduction of the sound of brass instruments then I totally agree with you. Nothing in my experience comes as close to horns at reproducing realistically the sound of brass instruments. (Hence my view that if one's main musical interest in jazz than for sure horns are the answer.)
* It is no coincidence that both the Pendragon and the big Genesis are two of my very favorite speakers. The Pendragon was designed with the Infinity IRS V in mind -- to be a simplified, modernized re-imagining of the IRS V.
I understand why you like that sound...I do as well, except for knowing where the limits are. Horns are one example, percussion another and massed strings (interestingly my huge Acoustat system didn’t struggle on this despite low sensitivity...it seems when you have a REALLY big radiating area you get some of the ease of high sensitivity...particularly when the moving mass is low) another.
My DIY system was quite good sounding but in the end fell a bit short in the direction I was moving towards. Had I not gone for a year to London I would have probably stuck with my huge panels and not as huge DIY system. But I downsized to small Odeon monitors, which sounded damn good with a KR SET. I had never forgotten the reawakening to horns in 2005 after hearing Odeon 32s with Einstein OTLS. I had Kilpsch La Scallas in college and they were great party speakers.
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That is what makes horse racing.
I like the sound of the BG ribbon driver as the full-range driver in the Pendragon and as the midrange driver in the Genesis 1.1/Prime.*
PS: If by lifelike you are referring to the reproduction of the sound of brass instruments then I totally agree with you. Nothing in my experience comes as close to horns at reproducing realistically the sound of brass instruments. (Hence my view that if one's main musical interest in jazz than for sure horns are the answer.)
* It is no coincidence that both the Pendragon and the big Genesis are two of my very favorite speakers. The Pendragon was designed with the Infinity IRS V in mind -- to be a simplified, modernized re-imagining of the IRS V.
I would have to agree with this wholeheartedly. I love horns and would never go back to panels, but even the best horns cannot do what an open baffle panel can do for vocals. The Pendragons being a full 2 way tower are amazing as are the Alsyvox panels for doing most of the FR through a ribbon/planar. I think for your experience in musical ventures and the type of music you listen to you made the right choice and most importantly you know you made the right choice.
Thank you.
Do you have a theory as to why this is (or at least as to why you and I think this is)?
I don’t understand, Brad. You are suggesting that panels reproduce vocals more perfectly than horn speakers because horns do not have box colorations, or because panels do not have black colorations? If the latter, I don’t understand, because horn drivers typically are not in boxes and thus would not have box colorations either.
As a panel man for at least half of my audio life and a ribbon/horn man for the other half I noticed a commonality to the performance of a well designed speaker system in these types of speakers
-Open baffle dynamic driver speaker is not as good a planar or ribbon based speaker like an Apogee. The combination of OB and a VERY FAST transducer is the key to its performance
-The loss of a box to make it infinite baffle creates a sense of ease and natural openness cannot be had by a boxed speaker
-Conversely, the horn speed and efficiency allows for dynamics not matched by any speaker, but I hate the term dynamics as it doesn't mean anything to SQ. Tonal realism is more appropriate.
-A 2 way ribbon used in the flagship Gryphon, and others, is much in the that 80th percentile of the two. It has the ultra fast speed from a very long non-point source transducer that puts it close to a horn while the design being separated from the bass cabinets (and powered) allows for optimization and efficiency for using the ribbon design as a 2-way.
I have found room limitations becoming the reason a dynamic driver speakers is even desirable anymore as it is the best compromise between these designs if you can't have one or the other
-Open baffle dynamic driver speaker is not as good a planar or ribbon based speaker like an Apogee. The combination of OB and a VERY FAST transducer is the key to its performance
-The loss of a box to make it infinite baffle creates a sense of ease and natural openness cannot be had by a boxed speaker
-Conversely, the horn speed and efficiency allows for dynamics not matched by any speaker, but I hate the term dynamics as it doesn't mean anything to SQ. Tonal realism is more appropriate.
-A 2 way ribbon used in the flagship Gryphon, and others, is much in the that 80th percentile of the two. It has the ultra fast speed from a very long non-point source transducer that puts it close to a horn while the design being separated from the bass cabinets (and powered) allows for optimization and efficiency for using the ribbon design as a 2-way.
I have found room limitations becoming the reason a dynamic driver speakers is even desirable anymore as it is the best compromise between these designs if you can't have one or the other
Hi Ron,
I was a bit off on my response because I was also meaning compared to box speakers. Sorry for the confusion. I think open baffle has great potential for lack of congestion due to having no box. For horns it is more about resonances...although most horn systems are hybrids with a box woofer that can also color the midrange. A well designed horn has very little discernable as coloration but it is probably never zero. Horn bass is also less colored but again an open baffle will not have any box to add to the sound...one has to make sure the mounting panel though is not resonating, however.
Speakers like my Acoustats, STAX and Apogees were all amazing with vocals...especially the STAX with a big tube amp (they somehow loved 100 watts of EL34 juice) was gobsmacking this way. My Acoustat 1+1 (upgraded with medallion transformers and foil caps) with Silvaweld OTLs was almost too real to believe with vocals or solo instruments...if I could stand the issues with the OTLs (heat, reliability) I might never have moved on from there. The Spectra 2200s + Spectra 4400s (as subs) with SET were nearly as transparent but could handle bigger music better.
What the good horns do is add the dynamic realism that goes the next step in realism overall. I still have a soft spot for the STAX + 100 watt EL34 juice (there were some tracks that sounded positively surround sound in holography) or my Audiostatics or Acoustats. I miss the Apogees less and don't really miss the big Infinity IRS Betas at all.
I also had the Genesis VI, which was interesting because the midbass coupler and midrange were both open baffle dipoles. The tweeter was also dipole (with one on front and one on back). They sounded very natural and free in the mids and lower highs. Beautiful really. That was almost a keeper speaker as well because it also fit well domestically.
Overall though my current speakers are the best for what I value in terms of lifelike sound with low coloration. They may not be the best in all categories compared to some shockingly good systems I had in the past but counter with greater strengths elsewhere...and they are not gigantic like the Acoustats.
The use of a horn with open baffle woofers, like Diesis Audio, seems to get very high performance and a lot more dynamics and slam than pure panel speakers. I found this application stunning!
I would not agree that dynamics means nothing to sound quality, in fact I think it is the "final frontier" of sonic realism because nearly all other speaker technologies round off the dynamics...even at moderate levels. Tonality is a complex issue and if you think about dynamic limitations being also frequency related, particularly because the dynamic envelope of each driver in a speaker is different, then you see that dynamic issues can also become tonal issues that may not show up in a frequency response sweep.
