Alsyvox planars...prepare to sell your Magico's, YG's, Wilson's, Cessaro's. Maggie's, and all others!!

[tima]

I know of situations where the customer insists there is a heavy expensive audio product problem, pays to ship it back and it turns out there is no problem.

I also know of situations where the customer believes there is a problem and pays to return the heavy expensive audio product for repait. The manufacturer examines it, finds no problem and returns it to the customer. However, the customer claims the product continues exhibiting the problem. The manufacturer strongly resists taking action but finally assents ("the last time".) The customer agains pays to ship it to the manufacturer who then actually recognizes the problem and repairs it.

These scenarios do happen. Exotic/expensive audio products can be like greyhounds, top performance but high strung and tempermental. Sometimes customers also act like greyhounds. Better results come when everyone acts in good faith. Entering an expensive hobby, one can have high expectations and demand excellence - that's okay - but don't think there may not be expenses beyond purchase with your greyhound. Those making their living with exotica should have policies laid out in advance but also be prepared to handle one-off situations with grace.

 

[microstrip]

(...) If Rhapsody's policy is to perform all Alsyvox repairs in the field, you should make that widely known; that would be a significant selling point and of great reassurance to potential US customers.

Although I am not specifically addressing any brand, most manufacturers will tell that factory (or distributor) service usually results in lower costs to consumers than repairs in the field and a more efficient service.

 

[William Kucharski]

I bring up the Wilson theoretical example simply because when you buy a product your dealer can promise anything they want to, but the only thing you can count on is what is specifically written in the copy of the warranty delivered to you with your product.

If your dealer says they will say pick up and ship your product for you, and you have an issue, it's what's considered a verbal contract and so if your dealer won't honor it your only recourse is to take them to court and meanwhile you have to follow the written procedure.

If your dealer goes out of business you are likewise stuck.

Having had to ship Apogees before, the idea of packing premium speakers back into their crates for a journey overseas is not one that I would relish.

The most extreme example I can think of is smoke detectors; Kiddes have I believe a ten year warranty, but the customer is responsible for paying shipping both ways - something that will cost more than simply purchasing a replacement.

 

[christoph]

Having had to ship Apogees before, the idea of packing premium speakers back into their crates for a journey overseas is not one that I would reli

Sorry for my OT question:
Which model Apogee do you have?

 

[William Kucharski]

Thankfully just Caliper Signatures; they are at the limit of what I could get into and out of crates on my own.

 

[christoph]

Thankfully just Caliper Signatures; they are at the limit of what I could get into and out of crates on my own.

Do you still use them?
With what amp?
Sorry for being OT again

 

[DaveC]

Yes, this is a big deal and I've seen companies struggle with it. It's the primary reason I haven't offered my speaker for sale yet, because I need to have this issue covered. If a smaller company offers large and expensive products and can't deal with issues that arise, it is a huge problem. I think if I offer my speaker with beautiful turned-wood horns and they crack, will I be able to replace them? It's a big liability to have large, heavy and extremely expensive gear scattered around the world and being responsible for said gear via warranty.

 

[asiufy]

I bring up the Wilson theoretical example simply because when you buy a product your dealer can promise anything they want to, but the only thing you can count on is what is specifically written in the copy of the warranty delivered to you with your product.

If your dealer says they will say pick up and ship your product for you, and you have an issue, it's what's considered a verbal contract and so if your dealer won't honor it your only recourse is to take them to court and meanwhile you have to follow the written procedure.

If your dealer goes out of business you are likewise stuck.

Having had to ship Apogees before, the idea of packing premium speakers back into their crates for a journey overseas is not one that I would relish.

The most extreme example I can think of is smoke detectors; Kiddes have I believe a ten year warranty, but the customer is responsible for paying shipping both ways - something that will cost more than simply purchasing a replacement.

And how is that any different from what's being discussed in this thread? Sure, the distributor is reassuring you here, but what if the distribution changes, and the new distributor doesn't like that policy and does not continue it? And why single out Wilson?

For most products, you can choose who you work with. If you trust the person, and you like the product, you do business with him, as you trust he'll do the right thing by you. Simple as that. You can ask the dealer to put whatever you want in writing, if that's more reassuring to you.

You're taking the case of a speaker (Apogee) whose MANUFACTURER is gone, and extrapolating it to a dealer going out of business, leaving you with no support.

William, the best thing you do is buy the speakers you want, and stop trying to find fault with the speakers you don't want.

cheers,
Alex

 

[William Kucharski]

Do you still use them?
With what amp?
Sorry for being OT again

Yes - I couldn't bear to sell them, and so I still have them as a second system.

They sound absolutely wonderful driven by a very modestly priced amp that I happened to have on-hand, a Denon POA-8200 I was using to drive surround speakers in my main system when used for home theater. (The Denon was then replaced in its surround role with a Rotel RB-1552MKII.)

 

[William Kucharski]

And how is that any different from what's being discussed in this thread? Sure, the distributor is reassuring you here, but what if the distribution changes, and the new distributor doesn't like that policy and does not continue it? And why single out Wilson?

For most products, you can choose who you work with. If you trust the person, and you like the product, you do business with him, as you trust he'll do the right thing by you. Simple as that. You can ask the dealer to put whatever you want in writing, if that's more reassuring to you.

You're taking the case of a speaker (Apogee) whose MANUFACTURER is gone, and extrapolating it to a dealer going out of business, leaving you with no support.

William, the best thing you do is buy the speakers you want, and stop trying to find fault with the speakers you don't want.

cheers,
Alex

Wow, you've gone really far afield in assigning motivation to me that I simply didn't have.

I chose Wilson simply because they were a price-comparable speaker whose warranty policies were clearly written, were posted online, and explicitly specified that end-users were responsible for shipping costs if their product needed to be returned to the factory for warranty service. That's it. For directly comparable hassles in shipping I could have chosen Magnepan, but their warranty policy is not posted online.

Most anyone with a net worth much less than eight figures purchasing a $90K pair of speakers is going to be concerned with the question "What if they break?" - doubly so for a product as unwieldy as the Alsyvox speakers and that are manufactured by a very small boutique company.

When manufacturers go out of business (or increasingly are purchased) their warranty obligations go away; ask anyone who's needed warranty service performed on their Wadia disc players, or, for a brief period, Classé amplifiers. (Arrangements have since been made to handle warranty claims on legacy Classé product.)

When dealers go under, you're usually faced with having to deal with the manufacturer directly. Depending upon the dealer, that may also apply if they no longer carry the line in question, and some dealers do not handle service at all, as warranty work is the responsibility of the manufacturer. Plus there is the question of geographic proximity to your dealer: If you purchased Boulder amplifiers while living in Los Angeles and now live in New York City, your dealer may not be willing to pick up the tab to ship your amps from New York to Louisville, Colorado, or, even less likely, from New York to LA so they can then be shipped from LA to Colorado.

These are all legitimate concerns, and were foremost in my mind when I was recently considering the purchase of Botticellis.

Frankly, they are still foremost in my mind, as they are still under consideration, but it's hard to shake the "what if" qualities of purchasing a speaker of which perhaps less than twenty-five pair have been made and where, if purchased, you will own one of perhaps four pair in the entirety of the United States.

 

[microstrip]

(...) Having had to ship Apogees before, the idea of packing premium speakers back into their crates for a journey overseas is not one that I would relish.
(...)

Overseas journeys and customs are usually subject to specific terms in warranties. Many distributors legally assume the warranty of products sold through them - customers at maximum pay shipping to the local distributor for warranty repairs.

 

[Rhapsody]

Every situation regarding dealers/mfg's supporting customers long term should be looked at carefully, there are many variables to these equations.

I can give you the names of 10 customers that I sold Avantgarde systems well over 10 years ago and some of them 19 years ago. I have not sold Avantgarde since 2014 or 2015.

If one of those customers has ANY issue with his speakers they know to call me regardless if I carry AV at this point. I would go to their home, inspect the situation and if parts were needed for repair order the parts (at the customer's expense for the parts) from Avantgarde and install the new parts.

The only cost to the customer is the price of the parts.

Rhapsody.Audio has a few other lines besides AV that we don't carry any longer that would be treated the same, I just point to Avantgarde because I sold a LOT of Avantgarde systems and a lot of the customers still own them.

Rhapsody has sold a LOT of big time systems over the years. The main reason that customers have bought $1M type systems from Rhapsody is that I take care of them, no matter what.

 

[William Kucharski]

That's great to know and is certainly something to be proud of and a great draw to anyone looking for a new dealer.

 

[Tango]

When dealer becomes your friend. Friendship will help and protect you. And friendship is not created by one side only taking.

 

[sujay]

Yes, this is a big deal and I've seen companies struggle with it. It's the primary reason I haven't offered my speaker for sale yet, because I need to have this issue covered. If a smaller company offers large and expensive products and can't deal with issues that arise, it is a huge problem. I think if I offer my speaker with beautiful turned-wood horns and they crack, will I be able to replace them? It's a big liability to have large, heavy and extremely expensive gear scattered around the world and being responsible for said gear via warranty.

Completely agree. And this is precisely the reason most people would buy speakers ( or for that matter any equipment) with extensive after sales support. There is nothing more frustrating than having trouble with equipment and then having to wait to get it repaired. Of course, all this does add to the cost of the final product. If I am buying a relatively expensive pair of speakers, I had rather have assurance of after sales support.
For this reason alone I like companies like Rockport which have excellent support despite their reach being limited outside the US. Wilson of course is at another level when it comes to support.

 

[BruceD]

Every situation regarding dealers/mfg's supporting customers long term should be looked at carefully, there are many variables to these equations.

I can give you the names of 10 customers that I sold Avantgarde systems well over 10 years ago and some of them 19 years ago. I have not sold Avantgarde since 2014 or 2015.

If one of those customers has ANY issue with his speakers they know to call me regardless if I carry AV at this point. I would go to their home, inspect the situation and if parts were needed for repair order the parts (at the customer's expense for the parts) from Avantgarde and install the new parts.

The only cost to the customer is the price of the parts.

Rhapsody.Audio has a few other lines besides AV that we don't carry any longer that would be treated the same, I just point to Avantgarde because I sold a LOT of Avantgarde systems and a lot of the customers still own them.

Rhapsody has sold a LOT of big time systems over the years. The main reason that customers have bought $1M type systems from Rhapsody is that I take care of them, no matter what.

That attitude is to be commended in this Industry--Kudos to you and your team!

Would the same accommodation be offered --say to Goldmund customers ?-- from my past conversations with a previous Importer

a slight sigh of relief may be felt

But then I have been wrong before

Keep up the good listening

BruceD

 

[Ron Resnick]

I know of situations where the customer insists there is a heavy expensive audio product problem, pays to ship it back and it turns out there is no problem.

I also know of situations where the customer believes there is a problem and pays to return the heavy expensive audio product for repait. The manufacturer examines it, finds no problem and returns it to the customer. However, the customer claims the product continues exhibiting the problem. The manufacturer strongly resists taking action but finally assents ("the last time".) The customer agains pays to ship it to the manufacturer who then actually recognizes the problem and repairs it.

These scenarios do happen. Exotic/expensive audio products can be like greyhounds, top performance but high strung and tempermental. Sometimes customers also act like greyhounds. Better results come when everyone acts in good faith. Entering an expensive hobby, one can have high expectations and demand excellence - that's okay - but don't think there may not be expenses beyond purchase with your greyhound. Those making their living with exotica should have policies laid out in advance but also be prepared to handle one-off situations with grace.

I write quite seriously that I take significant comfort in knowing that I can physically drive myself in less than two hours my huge tube amplifiers and several large and heavy boxes of tube phono stage and tube line stage to their places of manufacture/repair.

 

[tima]

I write quite seriously that I take significant comfort in knowing that I can physically drive myself in less than two hours my huge tube amplifiers and several large and heavy boxes of tube phono stage and tube line stage to their places of manufacture/repair.

There's something to be said for proximity to sources, Ron - LA to Chino. For me, it's safe to say I'm not moving to Brooklyn.

 

[Ron Resnick]

There's something to be said for proximity to sources, Ron - LA to Chino. For me, it's safe to say I'm not moving to Brooklyn.

Yes, exactly. And LA to Moorpark.

I like the idea of keeping our modest SUV for just such missions.

 

[Rhapsody]

That attitude is to be commended in this Industry--Kudos to you and your team!

Would the same accommodation be offered --say to Goldmund customers ?-- from my past conversations with a previous Importer

a slight sigh of relief may be felt

But then I have been wrong before

Keep up the good listening

BruceD

H Bruce,

YES, regarding past Goldmund customers. ALTHOUGH after representing Goldmund for the last 17 years in the US Rhapsody no longer represents Goldmund.

Audio Arts is the new Goldmund US distributor.

Rhapsody has Goldmund customers from 17 years ago. With these customers if there is an issue with their system Rhapsody would still go on-site and investigate any issues and then revert back to Goldmund to rectify the situation. Rhapsody would not charge for this service.