Totally strange rant indeed. Usually I like Elliot's posts, but this was weird.
An Explanation of the Term "Suspension of Disbelief"
- Thread starter Ron Resnick
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Totally strange rant indeed. Usually I like Elliot's posts, but this was weird.
EE, aaah yes, the modern age of acronymania lol. I thought that one was already taken by electrical engineers… so we now have emotional engineersAs you say, level of engagement is a personal thing...it is your mental state vs. my mental state. It might also be substance dependent. Live music itself doesn't often give a high degree of emotional engagement. So, if the real thing doesn't always do it then one shouldn't expect a stereo system to always produce EE.
As I said above, suspension of disbelief doesn't really have to do with EE. It has to do with believability of the presentation that it sounds real. If your aural memory is well adjusted to live, unamplified music and you hear a system that just nails the tone, space (imaging and soundstage), dynamics etc. such that closing your eyes gives you a believable presentation then that can result in suspension of disbelief...it doesn't mean that you actually forget you are listening to reproduction but that it has the simulacrum of a live performance.
Of course where your system is along that curve of realness of sound is somewhat subject, although I would argue that those who are well versed in live music (particularly that music up close like most recordings) will converge on system types that do similar things well that translate to lack of audible artifacts and high dynamics.
I think if you are deriving a stereo sonic buzz from the setup at home and need a controlled environment for your Emotional Engagement that live might not always provide the EE drug so much. For me I love live performance as long as it is good performance. I do derive my emotional engagement from the quality of the music more than the quality of the sonics. I think these are different requirements for each of us.
There are tipping points for what sonic factors need to be sufficiently in play for each of us to not get in the way of relating to the performance… so musicality may drive my EE more whereas sonics may drive it for more for others. This is an audiophile forum and I do get there is a baseline of sonic love but we are each chasing some individual listening balance needs (it seems quite variable) between the need for quality of the recording and the need for the quality of music performance.
Well, at least you didn’t conflate EE with SOD!EE, aaah yes, the modern age of acronymania lol. I thought that one was already taken by electrical engineers… so we now have emotional engineers
I think if you are deriving a stereo sonic buzz from the setup at home and need a controlled environment for your Emotional Engagement that live might not always provide the EE drug so much. For me I love live performance as long as it is good performance. I do derive my emotional engagement from the quality of the music more than the quality of the sonics. I think these are different requirements for each of us.
There are tipping points for what sonic factors need to be sufficiently in play for each of us to not get in the way of relating to the performance… so musicality may drive my EE more whereas sonics may drive it for more for others. This is an audiophile forum and I do get there is a baseline of sonic love but we are each chasing some individual listening balance needs (it seems quite variable) between the need for quality of the recording and the need for the quality of music performance.
As I said, I am not that interested in discussing EE, it’s purely subjective and can be had by some with a JBL pill, car stereo or giveaway ear buds and a phone. Some can even obtain EE with typical high end audio
!I am most interested realistic sounding reproduction and its potential for SOD. I think this is the highest calling a stereo can aspire to.
As I said, I am not that interested in discussing EE, it’s purely subjective and can be had by some with a JBL pill, car stereo or giveaway ear buds and a phone. Some can even obtain EE with typical high end audio
I am most interested realistic sounding reproduction and its potential for SOD.
Do you believe it is possible to hear a stereo reproduction that is indistinquishable from live music?
You suggest emotional engagement is 'purely subjective' and you characterize it here as a somewhat lightweight attainment - or so I read you. Is hearing a stereo sound like live music also purely subjective? I would think so, but given your contrast, it is unclear what you believe.
In the fourth antinomy (which talks in terms of whether there is a 'necessary being') Kant did not try to prove the existence of God. Your second sentence is okay. His view is there are certain 'postulates of practical reason' that are outside the realm of pure reason. "I had to deny knowledge in order to make room for faith."
Basically he is arguing against the 'proofs' of those who came before him that are based on reason or logic, viz. Descartes (God is perfect and it is more perfect to exist than not) and Leibniz (God can only be a necessary being and must exist) and others earlier. Roughly versions of the ontological argument grounded on the idea says existence is a perfection.
What is disbelieved is the view that I am listening to live music when I lisen to my stereo. When suspending what I disbelieve I believe I am listening to live music. "I no longer believe I am not listening to a live performance."
So SOD = BS… Believable SoundWell, at least you didn’t conflate EE with SOD!
As I said, I am not that interested in discussing EE, it’s purely subjective and can be had by some with a JBL pill, car stereo or giveaway ear buds and a phone. Some can even obtain EE with typical high end audio
I am most interested realistic sounding reproduction and its potential for SOD. I think this is the highest calling a stereo can aspire to.
Tim, please read more carefully and then you won’t have these questions. I stated you will still know it’s a reproduction. I use the term simulacrum to distinguish.
I think a system sounding close to live is purely subjective yet it is distinctive from EE in that a consensus can be reached with others through discussion. EE resides solely within the individual and their response to the music. It is not open for a discussion or consensus.
This may be pivotal. So the question could be can we train ourselves to be more susceptible to illusion or belief (in our pursuit these things are one and the same) and I think that this is very possible… and I’m not just suggesting substance abuse
.While there are different models of perceptual states (modes of perception) there doesn’t seem to be too much disagreement in neuroscience and in training that people are mostly multi-modal when it comes to the way we perceive and analyse, the difference being in the mix of modes we employ.
Most of us have strengths (and therefore relative weaknesses) in the various perceptual modes we use. Patterns of thinking come out of the way we perceive and then therefore view the world. We develop patterns and default states that we go to first when thinking simply set by our routine and expectation. It is possible to balance and change the pattern of modes just by reprogramming our thinking through conscious change of our routine.
Even something as essential as some of us being more intuitive and holistic versus some being more analytical and logical can be worked on through practice. I see it all the time in class with some designers being great at bringing through inspiration and visualisation while others just power through analysis.
Relaxing the part of the brain that looks to (or listens for) differences (analysis) can be balanced out by training someone to first look for correlations (synthesis).
I tend to think in terms of correlations myself and look for rightness first so I find it easier to recognise when things have moments of essential rightness, realness and believability because correlations jump out at me.
For those who look first for differences and areas of incorrectness or essential wrongness (or essential not yet rightness as I prefer to call it) would really need to suspend their default tendency of doubt and to disbelief first before they can connect with the correlations between illusion and realness.
Hence the differences between some people resonating to a position of suspension of disbelief (and the necessity of disengagement of their analytical function… the natural disbelievers) and those who think in terms of recognising points of believability through making the holistic connections (dare I say it the natural believers) who hear the correlations in what is illusion and what is real but don’t have the same need to then suspend doubt to hear where the points of believability are.
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Well, at least you didn’t conflate EE with SOD!
As I said, I am not that interested in discussing EE, it’s purely subjective and can be had by some with a JBL pill, car stereo or giveaway ear buds and a phone. Some can even obtain EE with typical high end audio
I am most interested realistic sounding reproduction and its potential for SOD. I think this is the highest calling a stereo can aspire to.
As a former reviewer you know the reader is the judge about the clarity of what you write.
You keep talking about emotional engagement but differentiate that from some other experience you call SOD by which I assume you mean suspension of disbelief. (Experience indistinquishable from live.) But you gave little information on that other experience which you think is the high aspiration of a stereo. I saw no "simulacrum" in the post on which I based my question. Nothing to read more carefully. So I asked.
The interviewer saw my CV and said his reality was suspended. I took that as a compliment.
A state of Suspension Of Disbelief - Ostensibly Feasible Felicity , for some , not for others.
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Other posts I used the term. Also SOD is not being indistinguishable from from live. This is misunderstanding on your part.
I talked about EE only in the context of being SEPARATE from SOD. I am not the one mainly talking about EE…that is Tao and Peter mainly. To me, others EE is not interesting to discuss…it is what is or is not. I am interested in SOD and realistic reproduction.
I remember watching a movie about this, some audiophiles use a Shun Mook spinning top while listening. In their suspended reality state the top continues spinning, and falls down if the illusion is broken
If I am understanding your question correctly I believe you are taking the term "suspension of disbelief" too literally. It is an abstract concept, not a literal concept.
This state of mind can never be "reached." This is the basis of my explanation to you that one should not look at this in a binary way (has disbelief been successfully suspended, or not?).
You seem to be trying to understand this as a form of self-induced hypnosis, which it is not. The mind does not reach the point that you truly believe that you are in the concert hall and not at home.
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And now it's an acronym
IMO it is a term with a defined meaning - taking you away from your current place, just "erasing" it from your physical references. We than add qualifiers for every specific application.
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