You asked about good digital files. My post was made within the context of the recent discussion in this thread. Nothing more, nothing less.
Analog Apologist
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The comments by PP indicated that his access to digital files were the end all for all music. No more searching no more tweaking and no more misery.
PP quote:
See, follow his advice and no more problems, all this effort we're pouring out to get our room right, the electronics right and all that foolishness are in vain. We are improving nothing, making matters worse and only following what we love. Useless effort to achieve a goal that only PP can reach.
Boy I wish I had him with me when I was the tech rep for Infinity and JBL, we could have solved all the problems I had in my five state area. Think of all that work we did for nothing, what a bunch of fools we are.
PP quote:
See, follow his advice and no more problems, all this effort we're pouring out to get our room right, the electronics right and all that foolishness are in vain. We are improving nothing, making matters worse and only following what we love. Useless effort to achieve a goal that only PP can reach.
Boy I wish I had him with me when I was the tech rep for Infinity and JBL, we could have solved all the problems I had in my five state area. Think of all that work we did for nothing, what a bunch of fools we are.
Albert, I think that what the question before us now is "Is the very extreme of state-of-the-art (SOTA) digital as good as the very extreme of SOTA analog?" For me it is a practical question because if extreme digital is as good or better I might go there because of all the advantages. But, my very limited experience so far is that R2R and high-end TT's are better than digital in most cases (in some cases I have heard SACD to be better than the vinyl issue). However, I have never been able to do an AB comparison between really good digital (Rockport Sirius level) and 24/192 digital (or whatever the SOTA might be). Have you (or anybody reading this) been able to do this? What were the results? Are there any masters done in both SOTA analog and digital of the same performance that would permit a even comparison?
My vote says analogue is better than digital across the board. Digital is significantly better than many suggest. Digital is cheaper. Mostly because of the huge players involved.That said digital enjoys a bad rep because it was horrible in the beginning.Ramming it down our throats did not help matters. We were not happy that we have to keep purchasing the same music in a different format. The new equipment has dealt with many of the problems. Low sampling rates may not have been the biggest problem.
For the most part the high end involves equipment. Software is the most important. Sort of the tail wagging the dog. Like it or not most equipment is being designed to make digital sound good. We can only hope the software people continue to make quality masters. We are going to buy music.They could use their monopoly to force another inferior format down our ears.
For the most part the high end involves equipment. Software is the most important. Sort of the tail wagging the dog. Like it or not most equipment is being designed to make digital sound good. We can only hope the software people continue to make quality masters. We are going to buy music.They could use their monopoly to force another inferior format down our ears.
PP said nothing about "all of you" and he said nothing about your heads or asses. I was responding to a specific post which reminded me of those who rigorously tweak, upgrade and refine, and seek recordings they believe will do justice to their tweaks, upgrades and refinements. Re-read that last phrase again. They have it exactly backwards. Or not. If the gear hobby is what makes them happy, I'm happy for them.
Ron, I believe, was responding to your question about where to find good digital files. Here is my answer...
Herbie Hancock's "Gershwin's World"
Joni Mitchell's "Travelogue"
Van Morrison's "It's Too Late To Stop Now" (the original is better than the re-master)
Thelonious Monk's "Brilliant Corners"
The Allman Brothers' "The Fillmore Concerts" (the re-master is better than the original "Live At Filmore East")
David Crosby's "If I Could Only Remember My Name"
Beck's "Mutations"
David Grisman's "Dawg Nation"
Miles Davis' "Round About Midnight"
These are a few of hundreds of examples currently resident on my hard drive.
All wonderful, imperfect recordings of wonderful, human performances, both live and in the studio. Redbook will do just fine, and will reproduce the recordings more accurately than any vinyl rig at any price. I don't have to hear every vinyl rig to know this, because it is the limitations of the medium, not of individual rigs, that make it so. If you like the way the vinyl sounds better than digital, that's a separate question. If you like upgrading and refining ("tweaking" seems to derogatory?), enjoy. If you like spending time searching for the best master, digital or otherwise, of each of your favorite recordings, enjoy that too. I've been through quite a bit of the former and enough of the latter and found them ultimately unsatisfying. What I find extremely satisfying, by contrast, are thin old recordings of Charlie Parker, Ray Charles, The Carters, etc. Really, the only fidelity problems I have trouble listening through are extremely compressed, loud masters. I love Bruce Springsteen's music, but find "Magic" almost unlistenable, for example. But I'm fortunate that I don't listen to much pop music, so I don't have to put up with much of the loudness wars.
P
"They could use their monopoly to force another inferior format down our ears."
Actually, I think it is going the other way. There won't be another physical format. Downloadable files are the inevitable next medium, and the quality is going up. iTunes, for example, recently upgraded from a 128kbps standard to 256kbps. And while I understand that 256kbps is not up to audiophile standards, look at it as a trend indicator. In spite of the fact that they have a non-audiophile market that probably doesn't care, they made the upgrade? Why? Because they can. Memory is expanding on players; bandwidth is expanding on the internet. The other positive indicator is the increasing quality of compressed files. Today's 256kbps AAC file is much better than a 320kbps mp3 from a few years ago. A 320kbps AAC is all but indistinguishable from lossless. And lossless is...well...lossless.
It's a brave new world.
P
Actually, I think it is going the other way. There won't be another physical format. Downloadable files are the inevitable next medium, and the quality is going up. iTunes, for example, recently upgraded from a 128kbps standard to 256kbps. And while I understand that 256kbps is not up to audiophile standards, look at it as a trend indicator. In spite of the fact that they have a non-audiophile market that probably doesn't care, they made the upgrade? Why? Because they can. Memory is expanding on players; bandwidth is expanding on the internet. The other positive indicator is the increasing quality of compressed files. Today's 256kbps AAC file is much better than a 320kbps mp3 from a few years ago. A 320kbps AAC is all but indistinguishable from lossless. And lossless is...well...lossless.
It's a brave new world.
P
Quality is going up? Somebody better tell Sean Olive so he can stop performing tests to show Generation X prefers 'losslsess." Yes you are right that being freed from the silver disc has the potential for end user choice, But ultimately it is the source maker who makes that decision.
Don't get me wrong; I'm still buying CDs and ripping to lossless. But the quality of compressed music is steadily increasing, as is the ability to download and store larger files. Just trying to be an optimist instead of the grumpy old man who comes so much more naturally.
P
Gregadd
Quality is going up in spite of the popular misconception, now proven wrong by some studies, that the latest generation preferred low quality music. 10 years ago,1 Mb/s at your home was quite a big deal.. Now most people on DSL routinely get well above 2 Mb/s and if you are in Korea , Japan or the Scandinavia countries or some other parts of Europe you can get 100 Mb/s in your home... The need for mp3 is becoming less. When a Portable 64 GB player can hold the equivalent of 160 CDs in .wav or 320 CD or more worth of music in lossless compression .. And that a 1 TB HDD cost less than $60 ... ( that is over 3200 CDs in lossless if you need some quick calculations) People can only move toward that...
The (seemingly ) never ending increase in Processing power and its accompanying decrease in component price will allow better digital processing and both Digital to Analog and Analog to Digital Conversions... We are seeing a rise in Digital Room Correction because it will be both less costly and more powerful (ask some people what Odyssey or TacT has done for their systems). Speakers , the weakest component in the reproduction chain can be better corrected, better crossover can be implemented ... One can argue as much as one wants but , yeah, quality is increasing ... and not too soon .. let me not mention video which is NOT the subject of this discussions.. Digital is on its way to afford us much better reproduction in the home than we thought possible in 1986 ... When it was Perfect sound forever ..
For the record, I don't believe that CD at its best is superior to analogue at is best (R2R).. I repeat it again that the best in digital (24/96, HRx,etc) is IMO superior to analogue in any of its iteration...
And Oh.. I also believe that the days of a physical medium for music are over .. There won't be any new physical medium ... after CD DVS, SACD , or whatever, it already is download ...
Quality is going up in spite of the popular misconception, now proven wrong by some studies, that the latest generation preferred low quality music. 10 years ago,1 Mb/s at your home was quite a big deal.. Now most people on DSL routinely get well above 2 Mb/s and if you are in Korea , Japan or the Scandinavia countries or some other parts of Europe you can get 100 Mb/s in your home... The need for mp3 is becoming less. When a Portable 64 GB player can hold the equivalent of 160 CDs in .wav or 320 CD or more worth of music in lossless compression .. And that a 1 TB HDD cost less than $60 ... ( that is over 3200 CDs in lossless if you need some quick calculations) People can only move toward that...
The (seemingly ) never ending increase in Processing power and its accompanying decrease in component price will allow better digital processing and both Digital to Analog and Analog to Digital Conversions... We are seeing a rise in Digital Room Correction because it will be both less costly and more powerful (ask some people what Odyssey or TacT has done for their systems). Speakers , the weakest component in the reproduction chain can be better corrected, better crossover can be implemented ... One can argue as much as one wants but , yeah, quality is increasing ... and not too soon .. let me not mention video which is NOT the subject of this discussions.. Digital is on its way to afford us much better reproduction in the home than we thought possible in 1986 ... When it was Perfect sound forever ..
For the record, I don't believe that CD at its best is superior to analogue at is best (R2R).. I repeat it again that the best in digital (24/96, HRx,etc) is IMO superior to analogue in any of its iteration...
And Oh.. I also believe that the days of a physical medium for music are over .. There won't be any new physical medium ... after CD DVS, SACD , or whatever, it already is download ...
Dr. Olives study may provide proof of what generation X prefers. Maybe I did not read it carefully enough. I missed the part where record executives capitulated based on that study. Please help me out by referring me to an authority for that. There is some hope for music whose copyright has expired. When I visited Steve we visited Larry. Larry is transferring his vinyl to digital. He said there is a guy in Jersey selling hi rez downloads. Most of us baby boomers listen to old music anyway.
Bruce B
WBF Founding Member, Pro Audio Production Member
Yes.. I feel I can speak for this. I have heard many masters from JVC, Verve, Universal and others... digital and analog. For the best of digital, we have the Playback Designs and a Pyramix workstation with a DAD AX24 capable of DXD/DSD and a Korg MR2000s. For analog, I have 3 Studer machines... one being previously owned by Bruce Swedien. I've done location recording and mastered many albums. I don't care where the master was done or not... the best of digital (which I find is DSD128fs) will never top tape. Never has... never will. The debate is over. You can close the thread now!
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Yes.. I feel I can speak for this. I have heard many masters from JVC, Verve, Universal and others... digital and analog. For the best of digital, we have the Playback Designs and a Pyramix workstation with a DAD AX24 capable of DXD/DSD and a Korg MR2000s. For analog, I have 3 Studer machines... one being previously owned by Bruce Swedien. I've done location recording and mastered many albums. I know care where the master was done or not... the best of digital (which I find is DSD128fs) will never top tape. Never has... never will. The debate is over. You can close the thread now!
Bruce has spoken
Lock the thread quickly!!!
To all of you who have 2" Studer machines running at 30 ips in your music rooms, congratulations. To all who have a vinyl rig, condolences.
P
P
Steve williams
Site Founder, Site Owner, Administrator
Bruce B
WBF Founding Member, Pro Audio Production Member
?? Exactly the opposite! The best Studer machine with 1/4" tape at 15ips is better than any digital.
To all of you who have 2" Studer machines running at 30 ips in your music rooms, congratulations. To all who have a vinyl rig, condolences.
P
Inquiring minds want to know (but I'm sure you'll duck this like the earlier question regarding what albums you've produced/mastered/mixed) which high-end tables you've listened to in your system? Or did you stop listening to analog when digital came out? Hint: Technics DJ tables do not count.
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