Hi Bruce,
I do not doubt it. Also, I think that I have a fair number of LP pressings that are probably close in performance to the original tape masters.
Rich
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Analog Apologist
- Thread starter mep
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Hi Bruce,
I do not doubt it. Also, I think that I have a fair number of LP pressings that are probably close in performance to the original tape masters.
Rich
Steve williams
Site Founder, Site Owner, Administrator
Precisely my take as well Bruce. I read a post in the last few days here (I think by Myles but ?) that said there is a loss of bass at 30 ips. That wouldn't be something I would give up for the increase cost of tape etc and the associated loss at the bottom end. Finally the one post on Audiogon 2-3 years ago by Mike Lavigne who has one of the best systems around. This was at a time I was considering getting back into vinyl. Mikes Sirius lll could certainly be said to be in the top 3 TT's. Mike also had a mint Studer A820. He was IMO a good person to be able to go head to head in his system with tape vs vinyl. At 3 3/4 ips vinyl was the winner. At 7 1/2 ips it was a virtual tie but at 15 ips tape was the clear winner. I hope I quoted Mike correctly and I'm sure ge will chime in. Suffice it to say I ended up buying a mint Studer A810. I also use Playback Designs which I bought after owning all Meitner fear for years and felt it to bt the cats ass. Until Playback Designs. It's designer Andreas Koch is a neighbor who several years ago brought over the beta version and I a/b'd vs my Meitner which I felt to be invincible. Wrong. Playback Designs was a clear winner. I bought it and have been using it since.
My point. .........
I feel my room provides good listening between my Playback Designs and my Studer. As great as my digital is it doesn't come close to tape
At our BAAS meeting apprx one year ago we compared R2R vs HiRez files of the same tracks. The concensus was the tape bettered it in everything but bass Here the HiRez files excelled.
I hope this answers PP's statements by my first hand experience.
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I love a lot of analog recordings, Myles, I just don't think they're inherently superior to good digital. But where I really part from the analog crowd is on playback media, ie: vinyl. To answer your other questions, I haven't mixed or mastered anything, the last table I had in my system was a Thorens, some time in the mid 90s, and sitting next to it was a 1/4" 15 ips tape deck. It wasn't a pro Studer, but still, I loved that deck. Even commercial tapes at 7.5 ips creamed vinyl.
P
These are some FR curves for various decks run at 15 and 30 ips.
http://www.endino.com/graphs/
Here's an old interesting interview with James Boyk about his modded Ampex machine:
http://www.its.caltech.edu/~boyk/rep-int.htm
There's some here that are more knowledgable 'bout the cause but as I understand, it's in part due to the head bump that occurs at 80 to 120 Hz at 30 ips vs. an octave lower at 15 ips. As a result, the low frequencies start rolling off sooner at 30 ips.
30 ips was used in part because it pushed the tape saturation effects higher yielding better top end response as well as S/N-a concern esp. back in the early days of stereo recording.
I'm sure there are others that can add more to the story!
http://www.endino.com/graphs/
Here's an old interesting interview with James Boyk about his modded Ampex machine:
http://www.its.caltech.edu/~boyk/rep-int.htm
There's some here that are more knowledgable 'bout the cause but as I understand, it's in part due to the head bump that occurs at 80 to 120 Hz at 30 ips vs. an octave lower at 15 ips. As a result, the low frequencies start rolling off sooner at 30 ips.
30 ips was used in part because it pushed the tape saturation effects higher yielding better top end response as well as S/N-a concern esp. back in the early days of stereo recording.
I'm sure there are others that can add more to the story!
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I did. Where does he say vinyl is unlistenable. He says he can't suspend disbelief but there's a big difference between that and unlistenable.
Bruce B
WBF Founding Member, Pro Audio Production Member
That's right... the word "close" is as good as it gets. I've heard a number of 45's on Mike's Sirius and it was really good. With the Studers we have here with extended response heads and modified electronics, I think the closest you'll get to that is actually digital at the DSD128fs rate. I did some DSD recordings at Mike's place and you couldn't really tell the difference between that and his vinyl. I'd love to do that again some day. When ever I do a digital transfer of tape here at the studio, it's at DSD128fs.
Hi Bruce,
Even if many of us invested in the modified Studer and other reel to reel machines, unfortunately there is an insufficient supply of tapes that many of us would like to make the investment.
Add to that the price of the special 15 IPS offered for the modern recordings of about $300 each for the Tape Project.
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Hi Bruce,
Even if many of us invested in the modified Studer and other reel to reel machines, unfortunately there is an insufficient supply of tapes that many of would like to make the investment.
I rationalize buying the Tape Project tapes as it's like buying clothes. For example, I'd rather own a few very nice suits that a lot of average ones.
In the case of the 15 ips tapes, I'd rather own a few outstanding reference caliber recordings than a lot of forgettable albums
I rationalize buying the Tape Project tapes as it's like buying clothes. For example, I'd rather own a few very nice suits that a lot of average ones.
I just dropped by the tape project's web site. This is the way to listen to analog and I'd love to hear "Waltz For Debbie" on this format! A huge investment for a very limited experience, though. I must have close to 2,000 albums on my hard drive, yet I've heard hundreds more that are "unforgettable." Give me a reconditioned Studer and the tape project's entire catalog and I'd get around to using that part of my system/library maybe once a month after the blush wore off. There's just too much good music out there to spend much time listen to recordings. YMMV.
P
I rationalize buying the Tape Project tapes as it's like buying clothes. For example, I'd rather own a few very nice suits that a lot of average ones.
Hi Miles,
I understand that, but for me I have different taste in music than much of what has been released through the Tape Project. I know that we disagree on this, but I have opted to get some of the "Hot Stamper" vinyl copies of albums that I like and would want (some relatively inexpensive others expensive) from Better Records.
Rich
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You're correct, in a sense. Let's just let his words speak for themselves and if he sees fit, of course, he can add to, subtract from, or otherwise further explain his own personal preference:
Oh, BTW, has anyone read any post in this thread refuting the well known facts referenced by Dr. Olive in his post which I quoted? I'll quote the relevant part once more:
Or how about refuting the brief, but well known, facts referenced by Phelonious Ponk:
So far, at least, the only thing anyone can discern in this thread from those extolling the superiority of analog as a medium are personal preferences (or as I like to call it, a flavor choice). If there is provable, repeatable, reliable, scientific evidence to support the position under discussion, then anyone, including me, is ready to examine it. That is the scientific method.
So far, at least, the only thing anyone can discern in this thread from those extolling the superiority of analog as a medium are personal preferences (or as I like to call it, a flavor choice). If there is provable, repeatable, reliable, scientific evidence to support the position under discussion, then anyone, including me, is ready to examine it. That is the scientific method.
Here we go agian. Isn't that the net result of Dr. Oives tests? Listener preference? Why should I defer to the prefernce of others?
Here we go agian. Isn't that the net result of Dr. Oives tests? Listener preference? Why should I defer to the prefernce of others?
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IIRC, digital's distortion actually increases as the amplitude of the signal decreases (I'm thinking specifically of 16-bit sampling here, but I guess it follows fro any multi-bit sampling. Not sure about DSD.). That is, as the amplitude of the signal gets smaller, the size of the sampling error becomes relatively bigger (because the sample are all the same size; i.e., it's a linear scale). So the very quiet passages that are supposed to benefit from digital's silence are actually the ones subject to the most distortion.
Greg, I'm not here to suggest you should. If you have a TT and the sound that it delivers sends you to audio nirvana, then I say beautiful. And the fact of the matter is (like I am stating anything ground breaking here) that many people do ride a TT down the road to audio nirvana.Gregadd said:
The corollary also is true. There are many people who only get to audio nirvana by playing digital files.
These are flavor choices. They don't prove anything. They are irrelevant in the examination of the subject under discussion.
I know I'm repeating myself, but that is because of the obvious confusion on the topic.
I'm lucky. Digital and analog both do it for me. I just think analog is more natural. No matter what, you get down to the same thing. Coke or Peps?. That involves humans and taste buds. Even worse it gets down to what they like.
Me too! And live! Went to a great blues show last night: Walter Trout. New album release party. Absolutely smokin'!
Steve williams
Site Founder, Site Owner, Administrator
Ron
I must admit that to me at least you make a valid point and perhaps one is confusing their "flavor" likes with the specs that you are trying to put forth (as is Sean) re the scientific differences between the to formats.
For me, I am with Greg. I love them both but I do have a preference for analog
hummmmmm.
i'm a confirmed RTR tape lover but i totally disagree with your perspective on vinyl.
i have over 100 commercial 7 and 1/2 ips tapes, mostly 4 track but 10 or so 2-track.
none of them cream vinyl and only a select few of the 2-tracks can go head to head or are maybe a little better with my best vinyl. the 4-tracks and the rest of the 2-tracks are a very mixed bag. some are on par with good vinyl but mostly not.
i played the 4-tracks on a dPV modified Technics RS-1700 and the 2-tracks on my Studer A-820; so my tape source is pretty good.
i think maybe your vinyl reference is a bit lacking (or out of date)....and you have some work to do to make the claims credible that you are making.
I find myself in complete agreement with Mike on this. For those that love the sound of digital silence, I don't know how you could say that a 7 1/2 ips tape would cream vinyl. Non dolby 7 1/2 ips tapes are noisey. They can sound extremely good however. BUT, they are not going to "cream" vinyl if you listen seriously. You have to step up to 15 ips 2 track tapes in order to beat vinyl and even then it will not be 100% I can't keep up with what gear P has or had. He mentioned something the other day that the last table he had was a Thorens, but he didn't mention what model or what cartridge and preamp he used with it.
And that would be relevant if the sampling errors were significant, or even audible, during those very quiet passages, but they're not. I do a lot of my listening on very good headphone systems. I've read about this distortion for years, and I've listened for it. Intently. Even at volumes that wouldn't be recommended for extended listening, even on very long fade-outs, I've never heard sampling errors. The loudness level always dropped to black first. Even on digital, the noise floor is higher. Moot point.
P
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