Andre Jennings and the Latest Edition of TAS

[Dre_J]

There is no magic to cart install/alignment. Pretty straight forward if you ask me. Now if you are talking about optimizing azimuth and anti-skate then it could be tricky I suppose. I really don't see what the big deal is to set spindle to pivot, overhang and zenith angle...the meat and potatoes of cart setup. I get a chuckle when someone spends hours on getting the perfect Mint LP alignment only to realize perhaps later that there will be cantilever deflection anyway, unless you have anti-skate set just exactly perfectly. If your overhang is correct along with zenith, your in great shape. I firmly believe there is more error tolerance in setup that won't affect sound quality than most people think.

I agree. I've been setting up tables for 50 years and I am 58 years old. It's not the rocket science some make it out to be.

no one sets up more cartridges that a tonearm designer. over the years i've had the privilidge of observing Joel Durand do many many dozens (maybe many hundreds) of set-ups and also watched his regimin change from time to time in the tools he uses. one constant is the Mint Lp protractor, another is the 'pivot to spindle' tool he provides with his tonearms.

as far as VTA; i have seen him evolve from one approach to another over time. same with azimuth; he has evolved from one approach to another, and then sometimes back again. it seems that he goes with one approach until another one takes him further. his mind is never closed to possibilities or set on dogma. it's always the sound that is the focus and not the process.

and whichever approach taken; some fine-tuning during listening is always needed to really find that last level of performance.

personally the mechanical part of cartridge set-up is not difficult if you spend some time doing it. it may appear to be an intimidating thing but it's not at all. the harder part is having a sonic idea of what you want in the end and having the patience to keep pushing until you are satisfied. and the more you do it, the easier it is and less an issue to worry about.

definition of 'optimization'

: an act, process, or methodology of making something (as a design, system, or decision) as fully perfect, functional, or effective as possible; specifically: the mathematical procedures (as finding the maximum of a function) involved in this.

to me the most important part here is 'as possible'.

since many of the parameters of cartridge setup are interactive and dynamic and the media is varible you can only approach perfection. and how we define perfection is subjectively how we percieve the sound and music.

don't worry, be happy.

you have to go beyond dogma and numbers and find the happy place.

I agree with Christian i think the set-up process is over-stated especially if you own a graham, Bob's jig allows you to do it in your sleep - the Mint LP protractor is a waste of money with the phantom, another reason this will be my last arm. I spent nearly an hour in Lloyd Walker's demo last Sunday picking his brain on various aspects of set up and he did a live demo changing vta/sra for 160g - 200g vinyl and the changes were more profound that I imagined, in part b/c while I stayed seated he could demo the change within seconds.

no.

it means (1) go ahead and do all the things you can do to the best of your ability, then (2) listen and make any fine tuning adjustments your ears like, then (3) enjoy.

just don't get caught up with numbers over what your ears say. if 92 degrees also sounds best then it's best. if it does not sound best then do what sounds best.

or just do what you like.

the goal is the best sound, not to hit some arbitrary, theoretical number of VTA/SRA.

How many of you actually read the PRINT article before posting and shooting from the hip?

 

[PeterA]

his 'table was set-up for 200g lPs, w/o changing anything he put on a mid-70s pressing prob ~140g. it was willie, singing amazing grace nothing seemed amiss until he adjusted the pivot point for proper SRA and WOW, three singers that were ill-defined and way behind willie, took several steps forward and you could clearly 'see' their 'heads' just behind his vocal.

I have no doubt that this demo showed the importance of proper VTA/SRA for the best playback quality. However, I'm curious about your statement: "...his 'table was set up for 200g LPs...." That makes no sense to me. In my experience, LPs of the same thickness very often have different ideal VTA/SRA settings. In other words, VTA/SRA has more to do with trying to match the original angle of the cutting head than it has to do with record thickness. Because there is no established standard for this cutting head angle, there is no guarantee that all 200g LPs will have the same VTA/SRA. Same with 180g lPs, 140g LPs, etc. etc.

Perhaps Lloyd Walker did not thoroughly explain the issue to the audience or am I misunderstanding what he did in his demo?

 

[Bruce B]

Well when I was in the room, Lloyd started talking about magic crystals on the arm and in the room that got rid of RFI and other nasties.... he lost me there.

 

[Peter Breuninger]

The key to set up is... (drum roll). Once it sounds really good, try not to think you can get it to sound better with more adjusting, usually you'll never get the magic back.

Trust your ears, trust your ears, trust your ears.

 

[FrantzM]

The key to set up is... (drum roll). Once it sounds really good, try not to think you can get it to sound better with more adjusting, usually you'll never get the magic back.

Trust your ears, trust your ears, trust your ears.

Would be a first for an audiophile to thinkn it can't get better sound from his/her gear.


I have read with some amusements the rejection of anything systematic by more than one audiophile in this forum. Our hobby is based on technology after all, yet the now easily available tools used by those who make your arms and TT seem to be rejected in favor of the "trust your ears" mantra. There is nothing arbitrary with VTA and SRA, I do know that the numbers are the end of it all but let's us try to admit that they are good starting points. Fine tuning by ear doesn't negate the effectiveness of numbers

Retreating to my mostly non-analog lair.

 

[Dre_J]

The key to set up is... (drum roll). Once it sounds really good, try not to think you can get it to sound better with more adjusting, usually you'll never get the magic back.

Trust your ears, trust your ears, trust your ears.

Ok. That's one that commented without reading...
If you read the Print article you would know what was said.

 

[Peter Breuninger]

Ok. That's one that commented without reading...
If you read the Print article you would know what was said.

Please correct me with the essence of the article... Dre, you seem to be a reasonable guy and must surely know that cart and table set up is an art and not science.

 

[puroagave]

Each time I visited his room the overall sound was so bad (and this seemed to be a consensus) I'm a little surprised you could evaluate something like this.

on the face of it the system sounded "bad" because of the bass boom and generally poor room conditions for that system, its doesn't change the fact it was very coherent and resolving in the mid/top. the demo music I'm speaking about had little bass content and the changes I described were easily discernible - not to just me be others present as well.

 

[Peter Breuninger]

on the face of it the system sounded "bad" because of the bass boom and generally poor room conditions for that system, its doesn't change the fact it was very coherent and resolving in the mid/top. the demo music I'm speaking about had little bass content and the changes I described were easily discernible - not to just me be others present as well.

The midrange was outstanding and the reach and clarity of the trebles helped produce a very holographic musical scene, notwithstanding the bass bugaboos.

 

[puroagave]

I have no doubt that this demo showed the importance of proper VTA/SRA for the best playback quality. However, I'm curious about your statement: "...his 'table was set up for 200g LPs...." That makes no sense to me. In my experience, LPs of the same thickness very often have different ideal VTA/SRA settings. In other words, VTA/SRA has more to do with trying to match the original angle of the cutting head than it has to do with record thickness. Because there is no established standard for this cutting head angle, there is no guarantee that all 200g LPs will have the same VTA/SRA. Same with 180g lPs, 140g LPs, etc. etc.

Perhaps Lloyd Walker did not thoroughly explain the issue to the audience or am I misunderstanding what he did in his demo?

you're correct. what I meant to say was the SRA was set correctly for the previous LP which also happened to be 200g. Lloyd shared a story about his friend Keith Jarrett (yes, that KJ) that gave him an LP that just didn't light Lloyd's candle so to speak, but messing with the SRA showed him not all cutting engineers got the memo on proper cutting angles - not even close in some cases. when he raised the back of the cart the music leapt off the record - I think most of us have experienced that before. as far as I could tell Lloyd changes the SRA on every record he plays.

 

[rockitman]

How many of you actually read the PRINT article before posting and shooting from the hip?

Just got it today. I'm not knocking the technique what so ever. I wonder how many go through that at a certain VTA then the album changes thickness. Is there a bubble level to get back to desired VTA/sra ? unless you have a graham you won't be sure. I hope everyone gets their VTA correct when setting tracking weight, otherwise when they have to adjust down for the thickness of the scale, will it be spot on VTF ? Once again, probably not. That is why there is more error that is indistinguishable sound wise than most people think. Why go through all the effort ? Sounds like needless torture to me.

 

[mep]

How many of you actually read the PRINT article before posting and shooting from the hip?

Apparently not many Andre. I was shocked by the response this thread has received to be honest. I really don't know what to say.

 

[puroagave]

How many of you actually read the PRINT article before posting and shooting from the hip?

guilty as charged

 

[Dre_J]

Just got it today. I'm not knocking the technique what so ever. I wonder how many go through that at a certain VTA then the album changes thickness. Is there a bubble level to get back to desired VTA/sra ? unless you have a graham you won't be sure. I hope everyone gets their VTA correct when setting tracking weight, otherwise when they have to adjust down for the thickness of the scale, will it be spot on VTF ? Once again, probably not. That is why there is more error that is indistinguishable sound wise than most people think. Why go through all the effort ? Sounds like needless torture to me.

That's two that didn't read before commenting.

Here the issue Christian, your prior comments were uncalled for IMO, based on not getting the context of the article first.

What you say above is your prerogative (and I support your freedom to constructively comment that way) for the most part. One day when you stop relying on the bubble level of Bob's arm you could be in for an eye-opening experience at what that arm is really capable of doing. Given your current preference for setup, I could almost, almost, almost bet that the setup of the Supreme optimized and not tied to the bubble level would give and probably outperform the Elite (a much better arm BTW) handicapped by user reliance on the bubble level. One day you will come out of that shell... Until then, enjoy the way it is now.

 

[Dre_J]

guilty as charged

That's three.

One more to go...

 

[mep]

That's two that didn't read before commenting.

Here the issue Christian, your prior comments were uncalled for IMO, based on not getting the context of the article first.

What you say above is your prerogative (and I support your freedom to constructively comment that way) for the most part. One day when you stop relying on the bubble level of Bob's arm you could be in for an eye-opening experience at what that arm is really capable of doing. Given your current preference for setup, I could almost, almost, almost bet that the setup of the Supreme optimized and not tied to the bubble level would give and probably outperform the Elite (a much better arm BTW) handicapped by user reliance on the bubble level. One day you will come out of that shell... Until then, enjoy the way it is now.

I was just blown away that people responded the way they did. All of a sudden setting up a phono cartridge with meticulous care and instrumentation and software that was previously unavailable not so many years ago is being pooh-poohed in favor of eyeballing it as close as you can get it. And this coming from some people who have stylus pressure gauges that display 3 digits after the decimal point because that kind of precision matters??

I currently have set up my XV-1s in my SME 312S arm the best I can with the supplied protractor from SME. I think my setup sounds really good. However, do I think for one second that my setup would be the same as Andre's? No, I don't. Hell, I might be embarrassed for all I know which I previously alluded to in my original post. It might be scary in a good way to know how much better it could sound. I would never turn down the opportunity to hear it.

 

[rockitman]

Dre, I will read the Article. I skimmed through it. I like the idea of fiekert adjust plus for azimuth. I may check it out. I think you are being hyper sensitive to the issue and I don't appreciate your Graham slams. I can assure you my vinyl rig and system for that matter is performing at a world class level.

 

[Peter Breuninger]

Apparently not many Andre. I was shocked by the response this thread has received to be honest. I really don't know what to say.

remember... the saying: word.

mep has spoken. perfect.

 

[puroagave]

I was just blown away that people responded the way they did. All of a sudden setting up a phono cartridge with meticulous care and instrumentation and software that was previously unavailable not so many years ago is being pooh-poohed in favor of eyeballing it as close as you can get it. And this coming from some people who have stylus pressure gauges that display 3 digits after the decimal point because that kind of precision matters??

I currently have set up my XV-1s in my SME 312S arm the best I can with the supplied protractor from SME. I think my setup sounds really good. However, do I think for one second that my setup would be the same as Andre's? No, I don't. Hell, I might be embarrassed for all I know which I previously alluded to in my original post. It might be scary in a good way to know how much better it could sound. I would never turn down the opportunity to hear it.

fwiw, if you ask Bob Graham he prefers his 9.5" arm and dissuades users to go 12 inch "if you don't have a good reason to" because tracing errors are magnified if the stylus isn't perfectly aligned - all the theoretical benefits of 12" arms are more than offset in many cases by user error.

 

[Dre_J]

... I think you are being hyper sensitive to the issue and I don't appreciate your Graham slams.

Says the guy who misread my comment about Bob's arms. Didn't even read the article... Are you kidding me?

There are at least 5 guys within 30 minutes of me that I've made Bob's arms sound better, to the owners, than before I visited them. I consider them all friends AND I have never suggested they remove or replace their arms. Why should they when the arms sound good.

Who's being hyper sensitive again?