Another Boulder amp from hell...

[andromedaaudio]

Powder coating is a type of coating that is applied as a free-flowing, dry powder. The main difference between a conventional liquid paint and a powder coating is that the powder coating does not require a solvent to keep the binder and filler parts in a liquid suspension form. The coating is typically applied electrostatically and is then cured under heat to allow it to flow and form a "skin". The powder may be a thermoplastic or a thermoset polymer. It is usually used to create a hard finish that is tougher than conventional paint. Powder coating is mainly used for coating of metals, such as household appliances, aluminium extrusions, and automobile and bicycle parts. Newer technologies allow other materials, such as MDF (medium-density fibreboard), to be powder coated using different methods.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Powder_coating

Anodizing :

Anodizing (also spelled 'Anodising', particularly in the UK) is an electrolytic passivation process used to increase the thickness of the natural oxide layer on the surface of metal parts.

The process is called "anodizing" because the part to be treated forms the anode electrode of an electrical circuit. Anodizing increases corrosion resistance and wear resistance, and provides better adhesion for paint primers and glues than does bare metal. Anodic films can also be used for a number of cosmetic effects, either with thick porous coatings that can absorb dyes or with thin transparent coatings that add interference effects to reflected light.

Anodizing is also used to prevent galling of threaded components and to make dielectric films for electrolytic capacitors. Anodic films are most commonly applied to protect aluminium alloys, although processes also exist for titanium, zinc, magnesium, niobium, zirconium, hafnium, and tantalum. Iron or carbon steel metal exfoliates when oxidized under neutral or alkaline microelectrolytic conditions; i.e., the iron oxide (actually "ferric hydroxide" or hydrated iron oxide, also known as rust) forms by anoxic anodic pits and large cathodic surface, these pits concentrate anions such as sulfate and chloride accelerating the underlying metal to corrosion. Carbon flakes or nodules in iron or steel with high carbon content (high carbon steel, cast iron) may cause an electrolytic potential and interfere with coating or plating. Ferrous metals are commonly anodized electrolytically in nitric acid, or by treatment with red fuming nitric acid, to form hard black ferric oxide. This oxide remains conformal even when plated on wire and the wire is bent.

Anodization changes the microscopic texture of the surface and changes the crystal structure of the metal near the surface. Thick coatings are normally porous, so a sealing process is often needed to achieve corrosion resistance. Anodized aluminium surfaces, for example, are harder than aluminium but have low to moderate wear resistance that can be improved with increasing thickness or by applying suitable sealing substances. Anodic films are generally much stronger and more adherent than most types of paint and metal plating, but also more brittle. This makes them less likely to crack and peel from aging and wear, but more susceptible to cracking from thermal stress.

 

[andromedaaudio]

Taken from the stereophile site, the M cast finish on the magicos is powdercoating also :
YG speakers look like anodised panels to me as seen from pics



At every CES, I seem to find out on the last day that there was something I should have checked out. And, sure enough, on Friday afternoon, I’m talking to Wayne Schuurman of the Audio Advisor, who mentions that Magico has a new speaker that’s about $13,000/pair.
Yikes! I’m supposed to be covering speakers under $15k, and I never bothered going into the Magico room, because I figured that all their speakers were above that price. I got to the Magico room when they were already in the process of packing up, but, although the systems had been taken apart, the new speaker, called the S1 ($12,600/pair), had not been packed up, so I was able to take a picture of it. Here is the picture of the S1 in different M-cast powder-coat finishes, with Irv Gross, Magico’s Director of Sales looking suitably pleased. The S1 is a two-way design, incorporating a new 7" Magico Nano-Tec mid-woofer and the same Beryllium tweeter as in the S5. Bass is claimed to be extended to 32Hz.—Robert Deutsch

 

[Roysen]

Roysen youre mixing up the techniques , anodisation is a completely different process than powdercoating , boulder could anodise their products anytime but choose not to , and so could magico do it either way , different colours of anodisation is no problem , and i doubt it would cost extra (i will soon find out and ask the company that will do it on my product )
Its more like getting tiles or wood on your floor it aint the same thing .
Regarding the comments of mr tammam i find that hard to believe , ading a black dye to the anodisation process or a red one , doesnt sound like a big problem , but i am gonna ask pretty soon for a fact

By the way the finish on boulder is second to none and yes i have seen some Q series speakers from close by , its on parr

I am not mixing up anything. This what Yair Tammam told me. They could not anodize with the same quality with a different color.

 

[andromedaaudio]

Here is the picture of the S1 in different M-cast powder-coat finishes, with Irv Gross, Magico’s Director of Sales

I am not mixing up anything. This what Yair Tammam told me. They could not anodize with the same quality with a different color.

 

[AMP]

Just to clarify a couple of things in relation to the Boulder manufacturing process. I'm not commenting on the reported pricing associated with the black finish....

Most of the metalwork on Boulder products is machined, then bead blasted to give it a matte finish rather than the more traditional brushing. From there the metal is anodized to give it the golden-gray color that you see in most of the products. All aspects of this process are done in-house with the exception of the anodizing.

The only parts that are powder coated are the black top and rear panels of the 2060 and 2050 amplifiers as well as the top and side panels of the 2000 series pre, phono stage, and DAC. If you see these in person it's obvious that they have a coating applied in contrast to the other metalwork.

As for black, I know that it's very difficult to get a consistent color match between pieces of metal when working with black and if not done to a very high standard the finish will age quickly with a brown or purple tint. Although it is as simple as changing the color of the chemical bath getting a finish that will be as consistent and long-lasting as the gray color is quite difficult. I remember Levinson making a big deal out of the color matching process that they went through to make sure that the casework of the 33s would look consistent at the time of manufacture as well as after years of use.

 

[audioarcher]

Just to clarify a couple of things in relation to the Boulder manufacturing process. I'm not commenting on the reported pricing associated with the black finish....

Most of the metalwork on Boulder products is machined, then bead blasted to give it a matte finish rather than the more traditional brushing. From there the metal is anodized to give it the golden-gray color that you see in most of the products. All aspects of this process are done in-house with the exception of the anodizing.

The only parts that are powder coated are the black top and rear panels of the 2060 and 2050 amplifiers as well as the top and side panels of the 2000 series pre, phono stage, and DAC. If you see these in person it's obvious that they have a coating applied in contrast to the other metalwork.

As for black, I know that it's very difficult to get a consistent color match between pieces of metal when working with black and if not done to a very high standard the finish will age quickly with a brown or purple tint. Although it is as simple as changing the color of the chemical bath getting a finish that will be as consistent and long-lasting as the gray color is quite difficult. I remember Levinson making a big deal out of the color matching process that they went through to make sure that the casework of the 33s would look consistent at the time of manufacture as well as after years of use.

That makes sense. I don't think powder coating the heat sinks would be a good thing for heat dissipation anyway. Powder coating the whole amp would not look as good IMO.

 

[andromedaaudio]

Thanks for clearing that up AMP , from what i understand the grey boulder panels are first glassbead blasted and then clear anodized , it sure looks great , that might be the finish i go for, although i might go for a different anodized colour .

http://www.nedcoat.nl/upload/Anodiseren/Anodiseerwijzer.pdf

There are even grades in the anodisation processes :

normal and hard anodisation

Hard anodising

In hard anodising the aluminium is given a very thick, hard layer, but in spite of the layer thickness the aluminium still maintains an accuracy margin of ca. five micron. Hard anodising is resistant to extreme high loads and offers a higher resistance to wear than hardened steel or hard-chromium plating. It offers a very high scratch-resistance and a high electric insulation. Hard anodised aluminium is suited for pistons, cylinders, gear wheels, shock absorbers, pulleys and the ironwork of vessels.

 

[Roysen]

Here is the picture of the S1 in different M-cast powder-coat finishes, with Irv Gross, Magico’s Director of Sales

The M-Cast colors were introduced late last year. The Q-Series has been available for years. Until the M-Cast colors were introduced only black was available due to the reason I explained.

 

[audioarcher]

Thanks for clearing that up AMP , from what i understand the grey boulder panels are first glassbead blasted and then clear anodized , it sure looks great , that might be the finish i go for, although i might go for a different anodized colour .

http://www.nedcoat.nl/upload/Anodiseren/Anodiseerwijzer.pdf

There are even grades in the anodisation processes :

normal and hard anodisation

Hard anodising

In hard anodising the aluminium is given a very thick, hard layer, but in spite of the layer thickness the aluminium still maintains an accuracy margin of ca. five micron. Hard anodising is resistant to extreme high loads and offers a higher resistance to wear than hardened steel or hard-chromium plating. It offers a very high scratch-resistance and a high electric insulation. Hard anodised aluminium is suited for pistons, cylinders, gear wheels, shock absorbers, pulleys and the ironwork of vessels.

When hard anodizing aluminum you can not do clear because it darkens the metal to dark gray. If the alloy has allot of copper it will have a bronze tinge. This rules out pretty much any color other than black as an option to dark gray.

 

[andromedaaudio]

Sure .


Its amazing how hard this anodization process is(can be depending on the alloy i reckon ) , its beats hardchromed steel on high revs graphic page 2



http://www.nedcoat.nl/upload/Anodiseren/Anodiseerwijzer.pdf

 

[A.wayne]

17k ......worth of hardness .....

 

[Imperial]

It might be sulphuric acid anodizing... or Chromic acid anodizing. That would be so called Mil-Spec anodizing... Both should give a very intense black color..
I would guess that Boulder uses a type III Sulphuric acid anodizing process, a very lengthy procedure that gives a very good thickness on the layer.
The thicker the layer the slower the process proceeds. This could account for the rather wild price...
Still, that is a very high priced color!!!!
I also think that Boulder may have to machine some panels slightly thinner, say the thickness of the anodizing? Since it might be an additive layering process... that would take time, and add to the cost. They would have to machine away ca 33% of the thickness of the anodizing layer needed, before starting... to have dimensions remaining at spec.
Machining accuracy would have to be in the 0.0001 - 0.001 inch range... to maintain that flush fit they sort of have in their joints and flanges. At least that accurate!
I don't know, still sound like a really high price!

I'd say the color cost mainly is in the extra machining needed... that would make sense, in a way..
Back anodized by sulphuric acid "hard anodized" is also seriously non-conductive..
Surface is harder than tool steel, so if one gets it wrong, you're fucked, hardly any way to fix it afterwards..

Still... that is one beautifully shaped monster amplifier! In Black.... must be insanely beautiful!

Imperial.

 

[andromedaaudio]

I have a boulder and when i rub my finger along the joints (which i just did ) the tolerance is certainly not better than 0,15 mm or something like that , good enough though from a visual aspect.
Anodized surfaces hardly add any thickness.
No real need to machine anything off to reach " specs" of 0,00 - 0,15 mm
Hardanodisation creates a thick layer of up to 0,1 -0,15 mm maximum , but i doubt the boulders are hard anodised as it is mainly for pistons / extreme wear stuff like that
Normal anodisation is like a 0,05 -0,025 mm layer

I just measured with my mitutoyo , the tolerance varies from 0,00 to + 0,1 0,2 mm

Chromic acid anodizing (Type I)The oldest anodizing process uses chromic acid. It is widely known as the Bengough-Stuart process. In North America it is known as Type I because it is so designated by the MIL-A-8625 standard, but it is also covered by AMS 2470 and MIL-A-8625 Type IB. In the UK it is normally specified as Def Stan 03/24 and used in areas that are prone to come into contact with propellants etc. There are also Boeing and Airbus standards. Chromic acid produces thinner, 0.5 ?m to 18 ?m (0.00002" to 0.0007")[9] more opaque films that are softer, ductile, and to a degree self-healing. They are harder to dye and may be applied as a pretreatment before painting. The method of film formation is different from using sulfuric acid in that the voltage is ramped up through the process cycle.

[edit] Sulfuric acid anodizing (Type II & III)Sulfuric acid is the most widely used solution to produce anodized coating. Coatings of moderate thickness 1.8 ?m to 25 ?m (0.00007" to 0.001")[9] are known as Type II in North America, as named by MIL-A-8625, while coatings thicker than 25 ?m (0.001") are known as Type III, hardcoat, hard anodizing, or engineered anodizing. Very thin coatings similar to those produced by chromic anodizing are known as Type IIB. Thick coatings require more process control,[6] and are produced in a refrigerated tank near the freezing point of water with higher voltages than the thinner coatings. Hard anodizing can be made between 13 and 150 ?m (0.0005" to 0.006") thick. Anodizing thickness increases wear resistance, corrosion resistance, ability to retain lubricants and PTFE coatings, and electrical and thermal insulation. Standards for thin (Soft/Standard) sulfuric anodizing are given by MIL-A-8625 Types II and IIB, AMS 2471 (undyed), and AMS 2472 (dyed), BS EN ISO 12373/1 (decorative), BS EN 3987 (Architectural) . Standards for thick sulfuric anodizing are given by MIL-A-8625 Type III, AMS 2469, BS 5599, BS EN 2536 and the obsolete AMS 2468 and DEF STAN 03-26/1.

 

[FrantzM]

Andromeda and Imperial

How much such processes would cost for a one-off run just one object of similar material size and weight.

 

[RBFC]

Andromeda and Imperial

How much such processes would cost for a one-off run just one object of similar material size and weight.

Remember that it's only the weight of the case, not the internals!

Lee

 

[andromedaaudio]

I will pretty soon find out , as my next speaker will be made of aluminium or aluminium alloy(99 % sure ) , do you mean something like the size of one 3050 outer case ?
The boulders are made of 6061 T6 aluminium which is a high grade alloy but you also have 7000 series for example , as for now i would have to guess , before the anodisation takes place some other treatments have to be done also which cost money, these also clean the aluminium surface

PS dont put all the blame on boulder , as the cost of a high end product(finish ) goes through an distributor /importer , dealer etc

 

[Imperial]

10 cents per 5 square inches surface is sort of a Type II price + hourly work rate at the place, that can be from 50 - 550$ depending on what type of anodizing... ...
And then upwards, seemingly a long way..
There are no real fixed prices it seems, quite wild variance...

The chemical compounds for an entire bath can run a couple of thou' (and more..) , but come on... you don't deplete a bath with a couple of chunks!!

But you can get a very good anodizing as it seems quite cheap. And we are talking very good results...
I can not for the life of me understand that high price for anodizing a panel that Boulder is asking. It must be done by maidens in skimpy clothes or something.. some sort of rare process that is lengthy and somewhat more apt for the amp...

For those of you thinking about getting things anodized: Get on the phone or e-mail and ask a LOT of places for "written" quotes before placing the order... choose accordingly.
That would seem like a good idea!

But, Without knowing what Boulder use as their M.O for the color black, I can only say, that it better be a lasting anodizing, and it better not flake... for the price their asking, the black 3060 or 3050's better start up with Vaders voice levitating your entire system for at least one minute.. then presenting Leia, sans slave costume for similar time, then music.
I'm sure Vader will speak these words: "Fluke , I ... am your father.."




Imperial.

 

[Boulder Amps]

Hello, Everyone -

Entertaining thoughts and ideas on our anodizing all, but none very close to why there's a surcharge for having things done in black (good efforts, though, Imperial!). Here's the story:

We do everything but anodizing in-house. Doing any type of anodizing in a city as environmentally conscious as Boulder is nigh impossible, it's done in Denver to our spec (by the way, the people commenting on YG's anodizing might like to know that they came to us for our vendor because we have color consistency, which is difficult to do in clear anodizing). To get this done, we don't just wrap up a bunch of parts and ship 'em - we have to go through an entire process to make sure that none of the metal was damaged in transit or in process.

We've resisted doing any kind of black anodizing for years and years, finally giving in on the 3000 Series stuff simply because it's hard to tell someone who is spending that kind of money that they can't have what they want. Why did we resist? Simply because normal (organic) black anodizing is a) inconsistent in color because it's not really black (it's blue or red or brown that's so dark it looks black) and b) is susceptible to oxidation where it'll eventually turn color anyway. How many heatsinks or chassis parts have you seen that are purple or brown or have a fingerprint on them that will never come off? That's the organic dye oxidizing and reverting to its original color. There's no way around this. It's going to happen to organic anodizing and that's that. This is what happens when you do black on the cheap based on the lowest possible price quote from your local shop. We can't have that because our gear doesn't have a faceplate that hides the rest of the amp - everything fits flush. Meaning that if the chassis parts were to change colors it would look a bit like a Rubik's Cube. We looked at architectural anodizing, but it's not very black (it's brownish) and it's not terribly durable. Look at the scratches on your office windows.

To get around this, we had to find someone that did a very specific type of synthetic hard-black anodizing (there are many kinds, we wanted a certain process and finish in order to be sure of durability and longevity and no color change). Which is easy. Except that there's no one in Colorado that does it. In fact, there's no one that does it except on the coasts. It's a nasty process and hideously expensive compared to normal anodizing. We sent metalwork samples all over the country and the one that we were happiest with came back from an anodizer in Oregon. Which is why the black anodizing finish from us is so expensive: we have to cut the metal and blast it (normal, just like all of our other products). We then have to have custom crates built to hold the metalwork and the giant plates that we bolt it to (this way, no one touches the metalwork and it never gets damaged) and ship everything across the country. Keep in mind how much some of the 3000 Series metal weighs and just how big and heavy these plates are and how strong they and the crates have to be to avoid any damage when banged around by shippers. It gets black anodized for us in tiny batches (there isn't enough demand for black to justify doing a lot of it or stocking black metal) and then it's crated up and shipped back to us. All of this costs us a fortune, but there are a handful of people out there who absolutely had to have black amps for whatever reason, so we went through the process of having everything done for them. We then figured that we can offer it to anyone who wants it if they're willing to pay for the costs involved.

It will not change color (we've had an 860 faceplate on our roof for over a year and it hasn't changed color - we've also baked it and applied every greasy fingerprint to it that you can imagine) and it will not flake off. Just like any other anodizing, it can be scratched, though it's a deep anodizing so it's very hard. Another word for anodized aluminum is aluminum oxide. Another word for that is sapphire. Quite the hard material if it's thick enough, so the finish is extremely durable.

As for our metalwork tolerances, anything on the exterior is done to .001" or .002" tolerances, depending on what it is. Anything that's powder coated will vary just because powder coating is an uneven finish. This keeps all the edges lined up properly. There's a small chamfer on each edge that de-burrs the metal and keeps everyone's fingers in one piece.

So there you go. Why black metal is expensive and why we don't like to do it.

 

[LL21]

Hello, Everyone -

Entertaining thoughts and ideas on our anodizing all, but none very close to why there's a surcharge for having things done in black (good efforts, though, Imperial!). Here's the story:

We do everything but anodizing in-house. Doing any type of anodizing in a city as environmentally conscious as Boulder is nigh impossible, it's done in Denver to our spec (by the way, the people commenting on YG's anodizing might like to know that they came to us for our vendor because we have color consistency, which is difficult to do in clear anodizing). To get this done, we don't just wrap up a bunch of parts and ship 'em - we have to go through an entire process to make sure that none of the metal was damaged in transit or in process.

We've resisted doing any kind of black anodizing for years and years, finally giving in on the 3000 Series stuff simply because it's hard to tell someone who is spending that kind of money that they can't have what they want. Why did we resist? Simply because normal (organic) black anodizing is a) inconsistent in color because it's not really black (it's blue or red or brown that's so dark it looks black) and b) is susceptible to oxidation where it'll eventually turn color anyway. How many heatsinks or chassis parts have you seen that are purple or brown or have a fingerprint on them that will never come off? That's the organic dye oxidizing and reverting to its original color. There's no way around this. It's going to happen to organic anodizing and that's that. This is what happens when you do black on the cheap based on the lowest possible price quote from your local shop. We can't have that because our gear doesn't have a faceplate that hides the rest of the amp - everything fits flush. Meaning that if the chassis parts were to change colors it would look a bit like a Rubik's Cube. We looked at architectural anodizing, but it's not very black (it's brownish) and it's not terribly durable. Look at the scratches on your office windows.

To get around this, we had to find someone that did a very specific type of synthetic hard-black anodizing (there are many kinds, we wanted a certain process and finish in order to be sure of durability and longevity and no color change). Which is easy. Except that there's no one in Colorado that does it. In fact, there's no one that does it except on the coasts. It's a nasty process and hideously expensive compared to normal anodizing. We sent metalwork samples all over the country and the one that we were happiest with came back from an anodizer in Oregon. Which is why the black anodizing finish from us is so expensive: we have to cut the metal and blast it (normal, just like all of our other products). We then have to have custom crates built to hold the metalwork and the giant plates that we bolt it to (this way, no one touches the metalwork and it never gets damaged) and ship everything across the country. Keep in mind how much some of the 3000 Series metal weighs and just how big and heavy these plates are and how strong they and the crates have to be to avoid any damage when banged around by shippers. It gets black anodized for us in tiny batches (there isn't enough demand for black to justify doing a lot of it or stocking black metal) and then it's crated up and shipped back to us. All of this costs us a fortune, but there are a handful of people out there who absolutely had to have black amps for whatever reason, so we went through the process of having everything done for them. We then figured that we can offer it to anyone who wants it if they're willing to pay for the costs involved.

It will not change color (we've had an 860 faceplate on our roof for over a year and it hasn't changed color - we've also baked it and applied every greasy fingerprint to it that you can imagine) and it will not flake off. Just like any other anodizing, it can be scratched, though it's a deep anodizing so it's very hard. Another word for anodized aluminum is aluminum oxide. Another word for that is sapphire. Quite the hard material if it's thick enough, so the finish is extremely durable.

As for our metalwork tolerances, anything on the exterior is done to .001" or .002" tolerances, depending on what it is. Anything that's powder coated will vary just because powder coating is an uneven finish. This keeps all the edges lined up properly. There's a small chamfer on each edge that de-burrs the metal and keeps everyone's fingers in one piece.

So there you go. Why black metal is expensive and why we don't like to do it.

Thanks for taking the time!

 

[Dave_A]

Very nice.