Any one using Acoustic Revive devices or Acoustic System Resonators?

[Stef]

You know many audiophiles enjoy using AC filters and all of them report positive feedback about AC filters. Many audio reviewers believe in AC filters and they think AC filters remove the noise from line and it increases transparency and image depth and silence.
yes sure AC filters decrease noise and improve blackness and ... but if you have dynamic system then you will notice most AC filters reduce micro dynamics and change the sound in wrong direction.

Right audio judgment needs transparent system

Hi Amir
I also use TAD gears and found it very sensitive to electricity. I have now 2 x 220v dedicated power lines running from my breaker panel, one for the front gears (4 mm²) and one for the power amps (6 mm²) and this setup has given me very good results overall.
I was wondering since there is no grounding in the TAD AC plugs and since there is a Signal GND Connector at the rear of the TAD C600 Preamp why not using it? Isn't it why TAD proposes a Signal GND Connector? I'm not a technician so this is a genuine question...

 

[Scott Naylor]

@Amir

Just bumping this - curious about Stef's question too?

 

[Amir]

Hi Amir
I also use TAD gears and found it very sensitive to electricity. I have now 2 x 220v dedicated power lines running from my breaker panel, one for the front gears (4 mm²) and one for the power amps (6 mm²) and this setup has given me very good results overall.
I was wondering since there is no grounding in the TAD AC plugs and since there is a Signal GND Connector at the rear of the TAD C600 Preamp why not using it? Isn't it why TAD proposes a Signal GND Connector? I'm not a technician so this is a genuine question...

Hi Stef
Excuse me , I do not know why i did not see your question and now I saw the Scott comment for answering to your question.

TAD (like sensitive military grade circuits) does not need to connect to building earth wire and it has his own internal ground. If you read the C600 manual, TAD does not recommend connecting the ground connector (in the back of C600) to the earth wire , so it means the TAD recommends floating ground. I also listened to TAD system in both configuration (floated ground and connected to earth wire) the sound was more dynamic in floated ground (standard mode).

The problem of floating ground is when you connect a DAC (like weiss) to TAD system then the weiss connects all chassis of D600/C600/M700 to the earth wire.
Because the weiss ground connects to home earth wire through the ground wire of AC cable and all TAD grounds connect to weiss ground through the pin1 of XLR interconnect.

This is not optimal situation and you have three options :
1- AC cable ground lifting of Weiss AC cable (like TAD) for floating all grounds. There are some cheater plugs in the market or you can disconnect the ground wire from ac plug
2- connecting TAD C600 ground connector (back of C600) to wall earth wire
3- no changes to AC cables and connecting devices to AC power in standard mode and using two dundahl LL1584-3FX3MX between weiss dac and C600

the first soulution is not good all the time because many audio equipments need earth wire for EMI/RFI filtering and ...
the second soulution seems to be better but I recommend you to check all soulutions and listen then decide which is better.
The third soulution will degrade the sound because of transformer .

I do not connect any devices to my TAD systems.
TAD is like Apple devices and does not like to connect to other devices (just kidding )

 

[Scott Naylor]

Thanks for the detailed reply Amir. Just to clarify your solution two "connecting TAD C600 ground connector (back of C600) to wall earth wire" doesn't conflict with "Do not connect a safety ground to this connector" from the bold print in the manual?

I guess what I'm asking then is "wall earth wire" the same as "safety ground"? And other than the difference of dynamics you experienced, is there any other sonic detriment to using the C600 ground connector with a signal ground system like CAD or Entreq? TIA

 

[Amir]

You are welcome

Soulution 2: No it has no conflict because when you connect (for example) Weiss DAC to TAD C600 then all TAD system D600/C600/M700 will connect to the safety earth wire through the Weiss AC wire.
If TAD recommends us to connect C600 back connector to other components it is about having better connection between chassis of different components as you know the connection of pin1 of XLR may be not very low impedance. This approach is also recommended by russ andrew company in uk to have better connection between chassis of different components .

Yes , "wall earth wire" is the same as "safety ground"

I did not have Entreq but the CAD GC3 was not good in my pervious system (vitus/wilson alexandria and audiopax/living voice) .

I think TAD just needs high quality AC power.
For decreasing RFI/EMI there are other ways like using RFI/EMI shield for room surfaces but I did not have any experience .

 

[PeterA]

I never liked off-topic and there is no need to war.

I just try to share my ideas in a peaceful space.

enjoy and have a nice day

Amir, I appreciate you sharing your opinions. This is a place where people do not agree with each other. But the decorum is generally respectful. Keep sharing your opinions. I find them insightful and informative. I agree with your comments on dynamics and transparency.

 

[Cellcbern]

Thanks for the detailed reply Amir. Just to clarify your solution two "connecting TAD C600 ground connector (back of C600) to wall earth wire" doesn't conflict with "Do not connect a safety ground to this connector" from the bold print in the manual?

I guess what I'm asking then is "wall earth wire" the same as "safety ground"? And other than the difference of dynamics you experienced, is there any other sonic detriment to using the C600 ground connector with a signal ground system like CAD or Entreq? TIA View attachment 109046

Wall earth wire and safety ground sound like the same thing. The power conditioners, noise filters, and chassis & signal grounding devices I use don’t restrict dynamics or otherwise negatively affect the sound - quite the opposite.

 

[Amir]

Amir, I appreciate you sharing your opinions. This is a place where people do not agree with each other. But the decorum is generally respectful. Keep sharing your opinions. I find them insightful and informative. I agree with your comments on dynamics and transparency.

Thank you Peter
I said before in Audio Critique that to have right Judgments we need a Reference transparent audio system , many high feedback complex audio systems does not show the negative effect of dynamic compression.
For example If an audiophile prefers the AC filters then it means his audio system does not show enough dynamic contrast in midrange and high frequency. Many Tune/accessory devices are not bad in mid-level systems but when you put them in a full range wide dynamic range system then you can see the negative effects of those devices.

 

[Cellcbern]

Thank you Peter
I said before in Audio Critique that to have right Judgments we need a Reference transparent audio system , many high feedback complex audio systems does not show the negative effect of dynamic compression.
For example If an audiophile prefers the AC filters then it means his audio system does not show enough dynamic contrast in midrange and high frequency. Many Tune/accessory devices are not bad in mid-level systems but when you put them in a full range wide dynamic range system then you can see the negative effects of those devices.

Complete nonsense.

 

[Stef]

Stef , might you expand a little upon What / Which element(s) of the system was the Tripoint directly connected to , and with what cabling … most interesting.

I’m not an expert so I can only describe what I have understood from my talk with Chris Leung and all my recent reads. The overall concept being that only an audio system with a proper electrical grounding is providing a blacker background, improving the pace, rhythm and timing, and painting a wider soundstage with better separation of vocals and instruments.

There is differences between earth ground (direct, physical connection to earth), signal ground (ground that is attached to every signal being transmitted between devices in a system because all powered separately), and chassis ground (metal housing encased in each device). All three indicate connecting to a point of (theoretically) zero voltage, but within a different context.

Chris with Tripoint is addressing the chassis ground because no two grounds are ever exactly at the same potential and creates ground loops. This is what Tripoint calls the Troy Signature NG an EMI/RFI passive filtration device component. Simply said it is a grounding strategy where an arbitrary “lowest voltage potential ground” point is chosen. The Troy Signature has 3 binding post on which 6 audio components can be connected. If no dedicated grounding connector on the audio device Chris just put the ground cable on the chassis (e.g. DarTZeel power amp)

I still find it hard to fundamentally understand some of the key concepts because the Troy is used as a “sink” to drain the unwanted electrical current leakage but then where it goes I don’t know…. I have a friend using a “similar” passive grounding box which give excellent results when just plugged in but then after few days the benefits vanish and he has to disconnect everything, wait for few days and then re-plug it… Is it to empty the sink?

Hope it helps to better understand the concept, nevertheless I guess that no ground is perfect.

 

[Stef]

Hi Stef
Excuse me , I do not know why i did not see your question and now I saw the Scott comment for answering to your question.

TAD (like sensitive military grade circuits) does not need to connect to building earth wire and it has his own internal ground. If you read the C600 manual, TAD does not recommend connecting the ground connector (in the back of C600) to the earth wire , so it means the TAD recommends floating ground. I also listened to TAD system in both configuration (floated ground and connected to earth wire) the sound was more dynamic in floated ground (standard mode).

The problem of floating ground is when you connect a DAC (like weiss) to TAD system then the weiss connects all chassis of D600/C600/M700 to the earth wire.
Because the weiss ground connects to home earth wire through the ground wire of AC cable and all TAD grounds connect to weiss ground through the pin1 of XLR interconnect.

This is not optimal situation and you have three options :
1- AC cable ground lifting of Weiss AC cable (like TAD) for floating all grounds. There are some cheater plugs in the market or you can disconnect the ground wire from ac plug
2- connecting TAD C600 ground connector (back of C600) to wall earth wire
3- no changes to AC cables and connecting devices to AC power in standard mode and using two dundahl LL1584-3FX3MX between weiss dac and C600

the first soulution is not good all the time because many audio equipments need earth wire for EMI/RFI filtering and ...
the second soulution seems to be better but I recommend you to check all soulutions and listen then decide which is better.
The third soulution will degrade the sound because of transformer .

I do not connect any devices to my TAD systems.
TAD is like Apple devices and does not like to connect to other devices (just kidding )

View attachment 109040

Thanks Amir.

I'm clear on the 3 options that you describe. I guess the 4th option is to "keep as it is" if no obvious audible ground loop.

Nevertheless, my initial thinking was more to explore how to lower to overall noise floor using simple components like the solution proposed by Acoustic Revive RGC-24 which fixes chassis electrical current potential and electric field interference by creating a virtual ground environment.

Grounding boxes are usually very expensive and it seems a little bit like opening a Pandora’s box for me so I don't want to go in that direction.

 

[Amir]

Thanks Amir.

I'm clear on the 3 options that you describe. I guess the 4th option is to "keep as it is" if no obvious audible ground loop.

Nevertheless, my initial thinking was more to explore how to lower to overall noise floor using simple components like the solution proposed by Acoustic Revive RGC-24 which fixes chassis electrical current potential and electric field interference by creating a virtual ground environment.

Grounding boxes are usually very expensive and it seems a little bit like opening a Pandora’s box for me so I don't want to go in that direction.

Yes you can use option 4 and leave all connections with no changes but sometimes the noise will increase.
For Lowering noise if your system needs the safety earth wire you can read russ andrew soulutions for lowering earth impedance .
You can have delicated low impedance earth in your yard specialy for your audio system.

 

[Amir]

About chassis voltage and grounding :

when you connect a equipment like DAC or amplifier to AC power and turn the device on then you will see an Inductance voltage on the chassis. This voltage is different for different devices and it comes from capacitive coupling of power transformer of your device.
When you connect the device to Wall AC the third wire in AC cable (ground wire) will connect the chassis to safety earth and the voltage drop to zero and you will have a dynamic current between device chassis and the earth. TAD believes there is no need to connect the device to safety earth and I think their opinion is 100% right .
you can see the TAD Engineer response to this subject

 

[Amir]

TAD floated ground has some advantages:
- better dynamics
- ground is isolated from polluted building earth wire
- no ground loop between devices

in my idea the TAD Engineers are so smart and their electronics design does not compress dynamics. I think this is very important in soildstate Designs to have maximum dynamics without compression.

 

[Stef]

TAD floated ground has some advantages:
- better dynamics
- ground is isolated from polluted building earth wire
- no ground loop between devices

in my idea the TAD Engineers are so smart and their electronics design does not compress dynamics. I think this is very important in soildstate Designs to have maximum dynamics without compression.

To be fair Japanese electrical plugs and outlets are mostly non-polarized and ungrounded with two pins only. Most of commercial Japanese equipment (for instance, but not limited to TAD) cannot be grounded by means of its power cord. That's why companies like Acoustic Revive invent a "local" Ground Conditioner called RGC-24...

 

[Amir]

To be fair Japanese electrical plugs and outlets are mostly non-polarized and ungrounded with two pins only. Most of commercial Japanese equipment (for instance, but not limited to TAD) cannot be grounded by means of its power cord. That's why companies like Acoustic Revive invent a "local" Ground Conditioner called RGC-24...

True,

you are right but TAD engineers had good decision in many other aspects like :

- designing large power supply for TAD reference series , the psu transformer of D600 C600 M700 all are 8 times bigger than the RMS power consumption of device. PSU design affects on Dynamics and TAD does not compress dynamics.

- Designing Very short signal path without Negative feedback to have right/musical sound

- designing D600 with perfect time domain response to have analog sound

- special care about vibration

I think TAD electronics are designed by smart engineers

 

[Cellcbern]

True,

you are right but TAD engineers had good decision in many other aspects like :

- designing large power supply for TAD reference series , the psu transformer of D600 C600 M700 all are 8 times bigger than the RMS power consumption of device. PSU design affects on Dynamics and TAD does not compress dynamics.

- Designing Very short signal path without Negative feedback to have right/musical sound

- designing D600 with perfect time domain response to have analog sound

- special care about vibration

I think TAD electronics are designed by smart engineers

There are a lot of electronics from a lot of different companies designed by smart engineers - smart engineering arguably being a prerequisite for top tier performance. A few use a floating ground - most don't including many top tier Japanese brands, e.g., Airtight, Combak Reimyo, Kondo, Spec, Wavac, and Zanden, not to mention CH Precision, Dartzeel, JMF, Riviera, Robert Koda, etc. Haven't seen evidence of this being anything but a design choice with trade-offs like other design choices - certainly no evidence that it is a superior choice nor any body of opinion that TAD electronics are superior to high end competitors' gear.

 

[Amir]

Every electronics engineer knows the safety earth is not neccessary for better sound quality, the EU (230v) standards ask designers to use safety ground to protect human from electricity hazard.

Most buildings use shared earth wire and it can degrade the signal and floating ground can help to have better sound.

TAD is not popular/known like other famous USA and Europian companies but TAD electronics are at highest level of electronics design.

 

[Cellcbern]

Thanks Amir.

I'm clear on the 3 options that you describe. I guess the 4th option is to "keep as it is" if no obvious audible ground loop.

Nevertheless, my initial thinking was more to explore how to lower to overall noise floor using simple components like the solution proposed by Acoustic Revive RGC-24 which fixes chassis electrical current potential and electric field interference by creating a virtual ground environment.

Grounding boxes are usually very expensive and it seems a little bit like opening a Pandora’s box for me so I don't want to go in that direction.

My experience has been that the inexpensive Puritan Audio Groundmaster City devices are more effective at lowering the noise floor than the Acoustic Revive RGC-24. I am using one for chassis grounding and one for signal grounding. Good way to experiment with "grounding" boxes without spending a lot. My intention was to try them as a first "flirtation" with grounding boxes and then move up to one of the more expensive ones. Still using them.

 

[Scott Naylor]

About chassis voltage and grounding :

when you connect a equipment like DAC or amplifier to AC power and turn the device on then you will see an Inductance voltage on the chassis. This voltage is different for different devices and it comes from capacitive coupling of power transformer of your device.
When you connect the device to Wall AC the third wire in AC cable (ground wire) will connect the chassis to safety earth and the voltage drop to zero and you will have a dynamic current between device chassis and the earth. TAD believes there is no need to connect the device to safety earth and I think their opinion is 100% right .
you can see the TAD Engineer response to this subject

View attachment 109061

It would be nice if the TAD Engineer addressed SIGNAL ground and why their superior engineering led them to put a ground post on the back of the C600?