Anyone have Sound Lab electrostatic speakers? I Searched...

[Mrmb]

I’m pretty pleased with my Mola Mola Kalugas, which put out quite a bit more power (400 into 8), and I can’t imagine getting by with 60 watts. Into the high impedance region in the bass (> 30-40 ohms), your Pass amplifier won’t be able to do much more than a few watts, but perhaps the 60.8 does in fact put out a lot more. I know Pass understates the wattage of their amplifiers.

What "godofwealth" said!!

Without going back through this thread, my recollection jeffreybehr, is that your audio room isn't a small one. And the XA60 controls your Sound Labs as well, if not better than the BHK's at 600-Watts? Of course, your listening levels may be lower than some. My levels are generally fairly low. But when I want to crank-it-up, I want the headroom to do so. Thus, I'm left wondering if the XA-60's would perform to the levels I would want to attain, at least some of the time?

Therefore, I wonder if anyone else has tried the XA60 (on the newer, PX panel, Consummate backplate S/L's) and found it wanting (at least some of the time) decibel-wise and moved to another Pass Labs Amp, because of that?

 

[godofwealth]

As I suspected, according to Stereophile’s measurements, the 60.8’s actually put out about 150 watts per channel into 8 ohms if you define it as the wattage at 1% THD. The reviewer also compared it to amplifiers at 10x the wattage, and didn’t find much difference, I suspect because the 60.8 is a far more powerful amplifier than its specs suggest.

Pass Laboratories XA60.8 monoblock power amplifier Measurements

Sidebar 3: Measurements

www.stereophile.com

 

[Atmasphere]

A 150 Watt solid state amp on Sound Labs is really only good for about 40 Watts.

 

[jeffreybehr]

A 150-Watt solidstate amp on Sound Labs is really only good for about 40 Watts.

Ralph, I understand your (often-stated) point about SS amps' inability to deliver much power into an ESL's high impedances in the lower frequencies, and I thought about that before ordering these 'low-power' SS amps...BUT, there are NO frequency imbalances that I can hear in the MUSIC I listen to with this system.. Maybe that's a result of my apparently lower-than-average listening levels, but these 'little*' Pass class-A amps make glorious music with my Majestic 745s.. And maybe there are better-sounding amps out there (such as your MA-2 and -3 OTLs), but I've stopped shopping and am now just listening thru my ONE pair of monoamps.

* physically exactly the same size as the class-AB X260.8s!

 

[Atmasphere]

Ralph, I understand your (often-stated) point about SS amps' inability to deliver much power into an ESL's high impedances in the lower frequencies, and I thought about that before ordering these 'low-power' SS amps...BUT, there are NO frequency imbalances that I can hear in the MUSIC I listen to with this system.. Maybe that's a result of my apparently lower-than-average listening levels, but these 'little*' Pass class-A amps make glorious music with my Majestic 745s.. And maybe there are better-sounding amps out there (such as your MA-2 and -3 OTLs), but I've stopped shopping and am now just listening thru my ONE pair of monoamps.

* physically exactly the same size as the class-AB X260.8s!

Yes- this isn't about a frequency imbalance. Its about how loud you can play it before the amp just runs out of power.

 

[godofwealth]

I’ve been very pleased with how my Mola Mola Kalugas drive my SL G9-7c models. They’re about 400 watts into 8 ohms and double into 4. I wasn’t expecting them to sound so nice. But with the matching Makua all-in-one preamp, it’s the first solid state components that I can imagine settling down with in the long haul. Large tube amplifiers are unfortunately really difficult to deal with, as I’m learning the hard way with my monster ARC 750SE’s. At some point you begin to wonder if the game is worth the candle with large tube amplifiers. The Kalugas are much less stressful to operate and orders of magnitude smaller with much less heat as well. I used to prefer tubes on my Quads but with the SL, I realize a lot of what I was hearing was due to the intrinsic brightness of the midrange on the Quads.

 

[jeffreybehr]

Yes- this isn't about a frequency imbalance. Its about how loud you can play it before the amp just runs out of power.

Well, then I'm covered!

 

[godofwealth]

My sense is that the latest SL panels are quite efficient, close to 90 dB. So, even 50-100 watts might be enough to make them play loud enough. But loudness with the SL is very different than with a moving coil dynamic speaker. Because of the really large radiating surface, over 3100 sq inches per speaker for mine, they don’t get loud in the traditional sense. The soundstage seems to get larger. There’s no volume change as you move closer to them. It takes a while to get used to this.

 

[jeffreybehr]

My Pass/SoundLabs system continues to sound nothing short of fabulous.. Will soon be moving the amplifiers about three feet closer to the front wall* and have ordered a 2M pair of 10AWG-per-pole AudioQuest Firebird SpeakerCable**.. Firebird ranks second in their chain of SC, with Dragon (RR $30K for a 7' pair!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!) at the top.. This move will be the first of many to reorganise the musicroom so that it's safer and more convenient to move around in.

FWIW, I've made an offer on a used SoundLabs Marquee centerchannel speaker (on USAudioMart.

Three Left!!! Sound Lab or Soundlab Marquee Electrostatic Center Channel or Surround Speakers

I present to you my collection of Sound Lab Marquee Center Channel electrostatic speakers.Located in Denver, PA.Each speaker is $1,500This set could also be used as surround speakers as well. I originally intended to use them all for a full electrostatic home theater experience, but a recent move...

www.usaudiomart.com

After I move the poweramps, I'll have to find a new mounting place for any CC speaker, and since I use a CC speaker only with TV (almost entirely automotive racing and NFL football) and movies, I'm scheming about somehow suspending it from the bottom of the screen.

* and onto a single 3cm-thick slab of granite
** Am currently using RobinHoodSilver

 

[godofwealth]

@jeffreybehr, I notice Music Room is now advertising your Berning Quadrature Z’s. Some comments on why you didn’t like them as much as the Pass 60.8? I’ve always wanted to try a Berning. These look pretty light at 30 pounds apiece. The tube apparently last a long time and a tube failure doesn’t take out the amp. Cosmetically these look a bit shabby.

 

[jeffreybehr]

@jeffreybehr, I notice Music Room is now advertising your Berning Quadrature Z’s. Some comments on why you didn’t like them as much as the Pass 60.8? I’ve always wanted to try a Berning. These look pretty light at 30 pounds apiece. The tube apparently last a long time and a tube failure doesn’t take out the amp. Cosmetically these look a bit shabby.

The QZs fell into the group of amps with excellent sonic reputations and sounding just fine with moving-coils speakers but simply not very musical driving my SLM745s*.. That's no smear on the QZs' sonic quality, as they're in good company with various Classes, Ayres, Atma-Sphere, ArgentPur, PS Audio, Pass X260.8s, etc. poweramps.. And of those I heard at some length, the group of musical poweramps includes only two, the XA60.8s and the PS Audio BHK600s.

Shabby? Only in the pics.

* Another new name for my SLs.

 

[jeffreybehr]

A fabulous recording of Sheherazade played by the Toronto SO conducted by Peter Oundjian* on CHANDOS CHSA 5145.. Chandos apparently hired Soundmirror to record this (in 192/24 instead of Chandos's usual stingy 96/24.. The overall recording is about the best I've ever heard of 'Scuzzy', with fine string sound and a deep and natural soundstage with nothing apparently solo-miced and in my face. The tymps are audible but do NOT sound close to me, the small instruments such as oboe and bassoon sound small, are perfectly audible, and really do sound as if they're 10 or 15 feet from the mics.. The solo violin of concertmaster Jonathan Crow is located at about 11:30 in the soundstage and sounds VERY nice and NOT spot-miced.

Performance is highly listenable and not passive or understated, and the orchestra sounds very good if not quite as good as Beachum's Royal PO in that classic, EXCELLENT performance and 2-channel, EMI recording.. If you love Scuzzy, probably you'l love this one.. FWIW this in the only multichannel SACD I could find of this work, and it's well worth the finding.



* Never have learned how to pronounce that name.

 

[godofwealth]

Umm... not true. I have owned for many years this scintillating performance of Scheherazade with Valerie Gergiev and the Kirov Orchestra, who would probably outrank the Toronto Symphony on this piece, I would wager. Try to find this SACD. It may be out of print. I still fondly recall Gergiev conduct Puccini's Turandot at Covent Garden. That was some performance. Since the Ukraine war started, he's become persona non grata in the West, so his international career has come to an end....but prior to that, he was an internationally renowned conductor who conducted many of the world's most prestigious orchestras, including all the top ones in the US.

 

[jeffreybehr]

What's not true? You're being VERY unspecific in your accusation.

I bought one on ePay for $32 delivered.

 

[Don Reid]

My experience with Sound Labs is from many years ago. I listened extensively to a Pair of M1s with top notch electronics and to a smaller pair (the name of which I have forgotten) that I had on loan in my home. While I found much to love about the Sound Labs I was somewhat disappointed that I didn't hear the precise pinpoint imaging I had enjoyed with flat panel ESLs such as my Acoustat 2+2s or Sanders ESLs. Of course the very narrow sweet spot that was typical of flat panel ESLs was absent with the Sound Labs.
Has this aspect of the Sound Labs been improved in the newer models?

 

[microstrip]

My experience with Sound Labs is from many years ago. I listened extensively to a Pair of M1s with top notch electronics and to a smaller pair (the name of which I have forgotten) that I had on loan in my home. While I found much to love about the Sound Labs I was somewhat disappointed that I didn't hear the precise pinpoint imaging I had enjoyed with flat panel ESLs such as my Acoustat 2+2s or Sanders ESLs. Of course the very narrow sweet spot that was typical of flat panel ESLs was absent with the Sound Labs.
Has this aspect of the Sound Labs been improved in the newer models?

In fact you are wright - large SoundLab's are great speakers but do not have the precise imaging and extreme detail of the ESL63 - physics of a large panel driven full range. I own both, currently listening to the A1 PX but sometimes miss the detail finesse and location abilities of a point-like speaker. There are always compromises in sound reproduction - don't believe in those who say that their preferred XXX is perfect!

Fine tuning the position can help, avoiding the "bigger than life" aspect, but they are not pin point type speakers. Curiously , the old A2 and A4 with their smaller separate line tweeter were much better than the current models.

 

[ChrisSoundLab]

In fact you are wright - large SoundLab's are great speakers but do not have the precise imaging and extreme detail of the ESL63 - physics of a large panel driven full range. I own both, currently listening to the A1 PX but sometimes miss the detail finesse and location abilities of a point-like speaker. There are always compromises in sound reproduction - don't believe in those who say that their preferred XXX is perfect!

Fine tuning the position can help, avoiding the "bigger than life" aspect, but they are not pin point type speakers. Curiously , the old A2 and A4 with their smaller separate line tweeter were much better than the current models.

Hello microstrip, I am curious if your A1-PX might be 90 degree dispersion or 45? That also makes a big difference. There was a mix of both around the A1 days of describing models as the trend moved from 90 degree (good for larger halls) to 45 degree which Roger felt was more natural and which also sent more energy directed towards a more specific listening area (also reducing chance for side wall reflection if room was more residentially narrow.) And yes, the positioning of the panels is very important!

 

[microstrip]

Hello microstrip, I am curious if your A1-PX might be 90 degree dispersion or 45? That also makes a big difference. There was a mix of both around the A1 days of describing models as the trend moved from 90 degree (good for larger halls) to 45 degree which Roger felt was more natural and which also sent more energy directed towards a more specific listening area (also reducing chance for side wall reflection if room was more residentially narrow.) And yes, the positioning of the panels is very important!

Mine are 90 degree - my current room is 20 feet wide. Today playing with VTL 7.5 III - Siegfried II - they really love energy!

 

[ChrisSoundLab]

My experience with Sound Labs is from many years ago. I listened extensively to a Pair of M1s with top notch electronics and to a smaller pair (the name of which I have forgotten) that I had on loan in my home. While I found much to love about the Sound Labs I was somewhat disappointed that I didn't hear the precise pinpoint imaging I had enjoyed with flat panel ESLs such as my Acoustat 2+2s or Sanders ESLs. Of course the very narrow sweet spot that was typical of flat panel ESLs was absent with the Sound Labs.
Has this aspect of the Sound Labs been improved in the newer models?

Hi Don, this is just my opinion but I would suggest the precise pinpoint imaging is the same for Sound Lab except that with Sound Lab you will have more ambient sound which in theory is to give the sound a more natural nature - and it is purposefully achieved from the decision to use a chosen angle of dispersion - either 90 degrees from many years ago or 45 degrees which is basically standard now (although both are offered for the wider models). 90 degrees was popular in the earlier years of Sound Lab and good if you have an 'audience' but as more people wanted more dynamics one way to achieve this was to reduce the dispersion and focus more energy at one point. 45 has been the standard for many years now. As microstrip prudently notes speaker design is always a compromise. And always very great variations in personal preference. I am not sure if you have seen the new Sound Lab website which has some photos which include the 9ft custom bass panels which I have (or perhaps you have seen other's bass panel photos) - and the bass panels are flat. I won't get into why here, but there is nothing to stop one from using a full range back plate on the 'bass panels' which I have done. And certainly all the sound becomes focused and nearly all energy is sent to the listening position and the amount of energy being sent anywhere else is very reduced, and this did seem to focus the soundstage more (or pinpoint effect), but sure keeps the head locked because any movement and the image collapses. There are other challenges that arise from a flat panel which requires more attention such as back wave treatment... a flat panel near a back wall sending a flat wave which reflects right back at itself is problematic (solved by absorption or partially by toe-in) But I am sure everyone already knows this...the point is that if anyone actually wanted a flat panel, all you have to do is ask . There is more to this story than I can write here, please look forward to more news in a few months (or contact me directly).

 

[ChrisSoundLab]

In fact you are wright - large SoundLab's are great speakers but do not have the precise imaging and extreme detail of the ESL63 - physics of a large panel driven full range. I own both, currently listening to the A1 PX but sometimes miss the detail finesse and location abilities of a point-like speaker. There are always compromises in sound reproduction - don't believe in those who say that their preferred XXX is perfect!

Fine tuning the position can help, avoiding the "bigger than life" aspect, but they are not pin point type speakers. Curiously , the old A2 and A4 with their smaller separate line tweeter were much better than the current models.

Just found a photo which shows the flat panels for reference - easy to see how they are 'flat' from the photo from above.