When I break-in my backend equipment, it plays music 20 hours per day Monday thru Friday and 24/day Sat. and Sunday...or at least 140 hours per week; frontend equipment plays 24/7.
Anyone have Sound Lab electrostatic speakers? I Searched...
- Thread starter jeffreybehr
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The PS Audio BHK600s still sound fabulous with the Sound Labs, but I'm fantasizing about buying a pair of Pass XA60.8s and selling or trading away my Pass X260.8s.. With the PSA M600s here and still sounding fabulous, the '260s come in second, so I'll be rid of them regardless, and everything I read about the '60s makes me want a pair.. If I bought the '60s, I'd keep the PSA M600s to use during our 6 months of summer.. I just talked with Pass's Kent English about the '60s' total power, class-A power, etc., and we agreed that the '60s' 240 Watts per chassis into 4 Ohms at 1% distortion* is PLENTY-ENOUGH power for me.
Anyone using XA60.8s with electrostatic speakers? Constructive observations, anyone?
* that John Atkinson measured with an XA60.8, and that would include about 30 Watts in class-A; the 380Watts into-2 Ohms power would include about 15 watts of class-A power.. These so-called 60-Watts-into-8-in-class-A amps must have a HUGE Voltage reserve to be able to deliver 2.5 times their rated output.
www.stereophile.com
Anyone using XA60.8s with electrostatic speakers? Constructive observations, anyone?
* that John Atkinson measured with an XA60.8, and that would include about 30 Watts in class-A; the 380Watts into-2 Ohms power would include about 15 watts of class-A power.. These so-called 60-Watts-into-8-in-class-A amps must have a HUGE Voltage reserve to be able to deliver 2.5 times their rated output.
Pass Laboratories XA60.8 monoblock power amplifier Measurements
Sidebar 3: Measurements
www.stereophile.com
Not great information, but it's something. Back on the .5 series, I compared a X250.5 and an XA30.5 and a came to the conclusion that unless one needed the extra power, the XA series was better in every single way. That was on Thiel 2.4s. I ended up with the XA model and adored it.
Yeah, I’ve come to the same conclusion. I bought the x350.5 before hearing the comparison, and when I did, I kind of kicked myself for not buying something in the XA series. I assumed because my x350.5 would never leave class A mode while driving my WP7s (I was right) that I wouldn’t hear much difference between the x.5 and xa series (I was wrong).
The Pass XA60.8s are ordered and should be here in a couple weeks; dealer AND PL are out of them now, but one pair's being built.
I hope to have my new, slightly narrower loboy built and placed by then; it'll be about three feet closer to the front wall, with about a foot of work space available between the wall and the amp rears.. This placement will give me more walk-about space between the speakers, and that space will be safer, too, with fewer cables hanging in my way.. Loboy shelves will be 3cm (almost 1.2 inches) marble.
I hope to have my new, slightly narrower loboy built and placed by then; it'll be about three feet closer to the front wall, with about a foot of work space available between the wall and the amp rears.. This placement will give me more walk-about space between the speakers, and that space will be safer, too, with fewer cables hanging in my way.. Loboy shelves will be 3cm (almost 1.2 inches) marble.
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I’ve had Sound Lab M 745 for four years now: in my experience, higher power amplifiers (250-600W) are preferred (only in general) and subwoofers are a great complement. I fortunately stumbled onto a pair of Ypsilon Hyperion hybrid amplifiers, which work extremely well with the SL speakers.
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You usually need that much power due to the impedance curve of the speaker. its 30 Ohms in the bass so if you have a solid state amp, divide by 4 to get an approximation of the usable power you'll have.
That is why I use a mono pair of Benchmark ABH2s to drive my Sound Labs. Fun fact: all other things being equal, the larger the SL panel, the more efficient the speaker is.
A quick note--listened to a MC SACD from LSOLive, the London Symphony Orchestra's home label, number LSO0792.. It contains works for strings-only--V-Williams' Tallis Fantasia, Elgar's 'Introduction and Allegro', and Britten's Frank Bridge Variations.. WOW! The orchestra was very deep but not TOO deep, and nicely layered.. The violins sounded VERY nice, and the speakers simply DISAPPEARED.. WOW! THANK YOU Roger West, Paul McGowan, and Bascom King.
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Were you listening with your BHK600's?
Once the XA-60's are received, I'm very, very interested in hearing your comments. Especially, how 60 class A watts compares power-wise to the BHK 600's and their 600-watts, and how the two amps fare in all of the audiophile parameters (harmonics, imaging, soundstage, etc.), in your "21'-wide, 19'"-deep room "containing about 3300 cubic feet".
If memory serves me correctly, on the SLOG forum, the moderator, TBW, is using Pass XA-60's to drive his S/L 545's in a 2nd. system.
As many speakers, SoundLabs can be driven and controlled by many different amps. But I've found the sonic differences between amps to be significant. Granted, that was generally with 2-3 generation older and less efficient SoundLabs.
Nevertheless, ease of presentation, control, the way leading and trailing edges of notes are handled, musicality, harmonics, soundstage, imaging, the individuality of orchestral instruments and the uncompressed handling of orchestral creshendos, are several of the important traits that I seek. The latter 4 aid and add to the you-are-at-the-performance illusion that I find so appealing and which mainly separates the mid-fi, from the very high end and one amp from the another.
@Mrmb I have been drawn to SL for probably 20 years but always somewhat off-put by the sheer size - until lately.
Your location "midwest" covers a lot of our great country and I am in OKC, so wonder if you are close enough to visit or at least meet.
Thanks
'Were you listening with your BHK600's?' Yes; '60s aren't here yet.
'As many speakers, SoundLabs can be driven and controlled by many different amps. But I've found the sonic differences between amps to be significant. Granted, that was generally with 2-3 generation older and less efficient SoundLabs.' My SLs are the 1st speakers I've had that make it relatively easy for me to hear diffferences among amps.
'Nevertheless, ease of presentation, control, the way leading and trailing edges of notes are handled, musicality, harmonics, soundstage, imaging, the individuality of orchestral instruments and the uncompressed handling of orchestral creshendos, are several of the important traits that I seek. The latter 4 aid and add to the you-are-at-the-performance illusion that I find so appealing and which mainly separates the mid-fi, from the very high end and one amp from the another.' I'm hearing differences mainly in tonality and musicality, the latter being difficult for me to describe except to say that what I hear with my SLs and the 'Pass '260s and especially the BHK600s simply sounds more like real music instead of reproduced music.
I just received notice from FedEx that the '60s are on the way and MIGHT be here tomorrow.
'As many speakers, SoundLabs can be driven and controlled by many different amps. But I've found the sonic differences between amps to be significant. Granted, that was generally with 2-3 generation older and less efficient SoundLabs.' My SLs are the 1st speakers I've had that make it relatively easy for me to hear diffferences among amps.
'Nevertheless, ease of presentation, control, the way leading and trailing edges of notes are handled, musicality, harmonics, soundstage, imaging, the individuality of orchestral instruments and the uncompressed handling of orchestral creshendos, are several of the important traits that I seek. The latter 4 aid and add to the you-are-at-the-performance illusion that I find so appealing and which mainly separates the mid-fi, from the very high end and one amp from the another.' I'm hearing differences mainly in tonality and musicality, the latter being difficult for me to describe except to say that what I hear with my SLs and the 'Pass '260s and especially the BHK600s simply sounds more like real music instead of reproduced music.
I just received notice from FedEx that the '60s are on the way and MIGHT be here tomorrow.
If the other speakers heard weren't electrostatics, Ralph Karsten's comments that I copied below from this thread "Soundlab Audiophile G9-7c: a 30-year odyssey fulfilled" may address why the differences are more pronounced with SoundLabs.
Suffice it to say that the 3-pairs of different vintage SoundLabs that I've owned always sounded superb, no matter my front end, cables, amplification etc.
However, each audition, each change, was easily heard and even easier to ascertain that the quality was either similar, better, or worse.
My amp sojourn though the years mirrored that conclusion. My original Mark Levinson 336 stereo amp and Parasound Halo JC1's, and CAT's and Atma-sphere's were all different, with the Levinson and Parasound being more similar than the CAT's and Atma-sphere's; which were similar to each other, but not to the aforementioned solid state amps.
In between (and with my previous SoundLab's), another Levinson amp and a Pass amp (maybe a X-250) was tried, with both being no-go's, when compared to the Atma-sphere. But none of these amps sounded "bad", just not NEARLY as good as the triode CAT's and the OTL Atma-sphere's!
What I'm seeking is a solid state amp that can equal the CAT's and Atma-sphere. So, @jeffreybehr, your finding that your Pass X260.8 bettered the Atma-sphere, and the BHK600 better both amps, was a bit surprising. But I've been happily surprised more times than I can count in this hobby and have bought several superb items from botique manufacturers accordingly.
I've not trialed any amps with my new S/L PX845's. So, the Pass X260.8 may be equal or be better as you suggest, than the MA-1's. This at least gives me some sort of course to chart, relative to my audition path.
But my gut tells me that the Pass X600.8 with it staying in Class A the first 50-watts may be similar/equal to your BHK. Others in this thread suggest that the first Class A watts in X-amps, didn't perform as well as Pass XA (Class A) amps. However, there was no mention of the speaker(s) used to make that determination.
Add in your personal audio reproduction preferences, upstream components, room etc., and those variables detract from making any specific comparisons to me and my setup. Yet your experiences are intriguing and helpful.
When I recently communicated with Kent English of Pass Labs, he advised the following:
"Ex Pass Labs engineer hire Jam who designed the Pass Labs HPA-1 had I believe 745's and updated to the 845's in a tiny room. His amps of choice were the x600.8's. This replaced his earlier system in a larger room, where he had 600's. "I thought it was absolutely spectacular sounding."
NOTE: Kent sent a picture of Jam's "small" room. It is attached!
Assuming Pass engineer Jam could have used any Pass amp with his SoundLabs and chose the X600.8's in a small room, that says something about the 600 vs the same priced XA160!
This is the Ralph Karsten ESL discussion that I previously mentioned:
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@dbeau: With me in Indianapolis, unfortunately, we are about 700-miles apart.
Don't let the size keep you from listening to these wonderful speakers. The ~5' 545's are not as imposing as 8 and 9 footers. Reviews of the 545's can be found and their performance is superb (https://www.enjoythemusic.com/super...tic_545_Electrostatic_Loudspeakers_Review.htm) and (https://www.dagogo.com/sound-lab-ultimate-545-electrostatic-loudspeakers-review/)
The larger panels are said to be a bit more efficient, and the soundstage perhaps a bit larger, but my guess is that the sonic differences are minimal in the scheme of things and NOT as nearly as big a difference as the size differences. Other's may want to comment about size vs reproduction benefits. Also, I believe panels are now being made to suit.
Additionally, before my present Majestic PX845 (8' panels), I had the 7-foot panels in a small room with a less-than an 8' foot ceiling, and they were placed within a couple inches of the side walls and they performed superbly.
Bottom line, don't rule SoundLabs out because of size or appearance!!
FWIW Dept.: the MA-1 only became a candidate to drive Sound Labs after a crossover error was corrected in the original Toroid backplate, which resulted in the Toroid 2 back plate. But even so, the MA-2 is the better amp (than our MA-1s) to drive Sound Labs; about 85-90% of the MA-2s we've made are used on Sound Labs as they have a better constant power characteristic. To keep up with an MA-2 on Sound Labs you need at least 800 Watts in a solid state amp due to the impedance curve.
FWIW, Jeffery's MA-1s were MK3.1s from about 15 years ago IIRC; the current model is of the Mk3.3 series for the last 6 or 7 years and they have improved even within the 3.3 revision level.
Thanks for this very IMPORTANT clarification Ralph! I hadn't considered it!!
Verses Jeffery's older MK3.1's my MA-1's are the MK3.3's. I also have rolled the 10, factory 6SN7 driver tubes, to NOS tubes!
Additionally, when ordering my MA-1 MK3.3's, I added the following 2-options:
1) Pwr.Supply Boost ($2,600 when purchased)
2) Caddock Resistor Upgrade ($1,870 when purchased).
So here again, there is another significant variable, when trying to use another's experience, to extrapolate, whether my experience may be similar!
Other important variables, when trying to make long distance, unheard comparisons, are DIFFERING:
1) Electronic gear prior to the amps (whose effect on the overall outcome, can't be underestimated). That's why at shows or in audio stores, I've wondered how someone can judge what for example a DAC is doing, if the listener has no listening experience with, or knowledge of what preceeds and follows the DAC! Removing the unknown DAC and replacing it with one that the listener is very familar, could amelorate trying to discern the unknown DAC's imprint on the end result. But still, what will the result be in my room with my hardware??
2) Cabling
3) Room size and acoustics
4) A/C "cleanlyness"
5) Presentation preferences and priorities that Jeffery and I may have.
Thus, in my zest to attempt to extrapolate Jeffery's experiences to mine, amp wise, I was not only comparing apples to oranges because of the MK3.1 to 3.3 upgrade, but with the added 2-options and tube rolling, I was comparing apples to onions!! The all-important nuances between the 2-amps, are certainly totally different...jeez!! Thanks again for the reminder Ralph!!
However, at the very least though, I can use some of what I gather from Jeffery to prioritize future in-home auditions, as difficult as they may be for an old gent and a proud new owner of 2-brand new hip replacements (the 1st. 6/17 and the 2nd. 9/9)!!
Nothing, absolutely nothing, replaces an in-home audition, especially if other audiophile objective ears are present (as I always make sure I have on hand)!!
FINALLY...made the big trip north to The Music Room and am now rid of pairs of PS Audio BHK600s, A-S M-1s, Berning Quadrature Zs, and Vanderteen HPA-M7s; V-steen Model 7.2s and a big CC speaker; Martin-Logan and Magnepan CC speakers; and a pair of 18"-driver Rythmik subwoofers.. Yes, this really means the Pass XA60.8s won the SoundLabs contest with their VERY musical smoothness and overall sounds and HIGH rez in all respects.. And they do indeed have plenty of power for me.
Having only 3 poweramps will allow me to place all of them on one wideish slab of 3cm granite when I move them at least two feet closer to the front wall; the CC speaker will be above them somewhere.
Having only 3 poweramps will allow me to place all of them on one wideish slab of 3cm granite when I move them at least two feet closer to the front wall; the CC speaker will be above them somewhere.
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Interesting, thanks for the shootout. I’m pretty pleased with my Mola Mola Kalugas, which put out quite a bit more power (400 into 8), and I can’t imagine getting by with 60 watts. Into the high impedance region in the bass (> 30-40 ohms), your Pass amplifier won’t be able to do much more than a few watts, but perhaps the 60.8 does in fact put out a lot more. I know Pass understates the wattage of their amplifiers.
Also, I have the larger G9-7c model, which might need a lot more power. Another factor is the bias setting, which changes efficiency. I haven’t driven my SL’s really hard yet as I’m waiting for the panels to break in. They are barely a month or so old.
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