Anyone have Sound Lab electrostatic speakers? I Searched...

[Atmasphere]

Mine are 90 degree - my current room is 20 feet wide. Today playing with VTL 7.5 III - Siegfried II - they really love energy!

From everything I've seen and heard, plus customer reports, the move to the 45 degree setup is a big deal for the Sound Labs. Imaging is much more precise and the speaker seems easier to drive too; apparently the impedance curve is more benign even if you have the newer back plate.

 

[ChrisSoundLab]

Just trying to spread the news if anyone is following (so hard to know how and where to announce these things)
Sound Lab (myself and Dr. Vinyl) will be at Dallas SWAF this March 21-23rd to show a newly made (in progress now) G7-7C in Room 1201.
More details later, but the room is hopefully good as it is larger than normal (20' x 18' and has 9'4" ceilings). Certainly look forward to see you there.

 

[Avidlistener]

Just wanted to share my own experiences with Soundlabs. I've lusted after owning a pair for many years, but never pulled the trigger as I live in NYC and space is at a premium. Many years ago I was introduced to a great guy named Tony Grant, who was a major Soundlab enthusiast with A1's and B1's, then ended up getting one of the very first U1's to be shipped. That was the sound I always wanted, and I own perhaps the perfect amp for them, the MA-1 OTL's (which I actually have listed for sale, but may keep them)

I recently heard about a new full range electrostat called Popori, which has a much smaller footprint, and just ordered a pair of their entry level model. I know there is no replacement for huge amount of surface area the Soundlab's have, and their curved panels I think provide a great benefit.

Time will tell whether they can replace my TAD CR1's but it's going to interesting to go back to 'stats after all these years. My first high end speaker was the Quad 63 with crosby mod, but I couldn't deal with having to replace panels, and gave them up.

 

[Mrmb]

Congrats on a return to stats. I'm using Atma-Sphere MA1, MKIII's on my Majestic 845PX Soundlabs, so I would imagine they would work well on other stats.

BTW, Soundlabs can now be ordered in bespoke sizes, other than standard large, to very large footprint models.

 

[Avidlistener]

Wow Interesting to know but bespoke designs means probably zero resale value.

Anyone in the NYC tri state area have soundlabs and would let me be willing to listen? I’d be happy to reciprocate and let you hear my Popori’s when they arrive, or even my current TAD’s. Interestingly enough when I first heard the TAD’s I thought they sounded like quads with dynamics and bass, and when I told Andrew Jones that he laughed and said he still owned esl57’s and that was his design goal.

Do Soundlab users use the Salle backwave diffuser they used to sell? (I think that’s what it was called.)

This new ‘stat speaker I’m getting come with foam inserts that go into the frame directly behind the panels and allows the user to choose how many to insert to tune the speakers to the room/rear wall distance. I’m not sold on that design choice. My friend owns the Jensen stats which are in a cabinet that absorbs the rear wave. Unfortunately I’ve never heard them but would love to. I do remember hearing the Sanders eletrostats on several occasions and never heard something I really liked. Perhaps it was the material played.

 

[ChrisSoundLab]

Wow Interesting to know but bespoke designs means probably zero resale value.

Anyone in the NYC tri state area have soundlabs and would let me be willing to listen? I’d be happy to reciprocate and let you hear my Popori’s when they arrive, or even my current TAD’s. Interestingly enough when I first heard the TAD’s I thought they sounded like quads with dynamics and bass, and when I told Andrew Jones that he laughed and said he still owned esl57’s and that was his design goal.

Do Soundlab users use the Salle backwave diffuser they used to sell? (I think that’s what it was called.)

This new ‘stat speaker I’m getting come with foam inserts that go into the frame directly behind the panels and allows the user to choose how many to insert to tune the speakers to the room/rear wall distance. I’m not sold on that design choice. My friend owns the Jensen stats which are in a cabinet that absorbs the rear wave. Unfortunately I’ve never heard them but would love to. I do remember hearing the Sanders eletrostats on several occasions and never heard something I really liked. Perhaps it was the material played.

Good morning Avid listener... To Listen - please contact John Vogt who is in the New York - Huntington area ... he has had Sound Lab for over 30 years, has had atma-sphere MA2s, is an engineer and very knowledgeable and also happens to be a Sound Lab dealer - like most 'dealers's for Sound Lab his home is his intimate showroom and you are very welcome just to come listen (no 'selling' .. just sharing).
Next - all Sound Lab have always been custom ordered with many sizes available - just nobody has known ... please see the new website 'build menu' section for a matrix: soundlabelectrostats.com
There is much information on the new website.
Note there are dealers in Maryland and LTA (Linear Tube Audio) also has one of our narrow panels in their showroom which they are using for voicing some of their new models.
You will also find several videos at the new website channel (several different sizes for reference): https://www.youtube.com/@soundlabelectrostats
Yes - the SALLIE is still available - some use, some have other solutions to absorb/diffuse the back wave.
Note: Sound Lab look curved, but actually are composed of flat cells arranged in a curved appearance - achieving a 45 degree dispersion which we have found to be most natural (no head in a vice) while still focusing most of the energy towards the listener.
Please also see our FB page which I try to keep updated: Sound Lab Electrostats

 

[WillBthr]

I have two sets of Allies and it is obviously dependent on what is behind the speaker but they can be useful to get the speakers set up.

I have a pair of 90 degree SL and a pair of 45 degree of SL, both with new, the latest panels and I sit relatively close in both systems... I disagree with those who say there is less precise focus with one over the other. In fact I find one pair more natural sounding in terms of a stage perspective and "depth" when playing back Source material that actually has real depth.

Quads had a miniature sized image and many other shortcomings such as severe beaming... Move your head an inch etc. Not the case with SL ELS. They have a realistic sized image and in my experience with tube amplifiers the image is much larger than with a solid state amplifier. In fact I would venture the image size shrinks by about 40% with solid state. Never heard a class D amplifier.

 

[WillBthr]

Sallies

 

[Avidlistener]

Chris thanks - as a matter of fact my friend (now passed away) sold his U1’s to John and probably introduced him to the manufacturer. I just didn’t know how to contact him.

 

[ChrisSoundLab]

Wow Interesting to know but bespoke designs means probably zero resale value.

Anyone in the NYC tri state area have soundlabs and would let me be willing to listen? I’d be happy to reciprocate and let you hear my Popori’s when they arrive, or even my current TAD’s. Interestingly enough when I first heard the TAD’s I thought they sounded like quads with dynamics and bass, and when I told Andrew Jones that he laughed and said he still owned esl57’s and that was his design goal.

Do Soundlab users use the Salle backwave diffuser they used to sell? (I think that’s what it was called.)

This new ‘stat speaker I’m getting come with foam inserts that go into the frame directly behind the panels and allows the user to choose how many to insert to tune the speakers to the room/rear wall distance. I’m not sold on that design choice. My friend owns the Jensen stats which are in a cabinet that absorbs the rear wave. Unfortunately I’ve never heard them but would love to. I do remember hearing the Sanders eletrostats on several occasions and never heard something I really liked. Perhaps it was the material played.

Chris thanks - as a matter of fact my friend (now passed away) sold his U1’s to John and probably introduced him to the manufacturer. I just didn’t know how to contact him.

Great...hope you get in touch. I am happy to support with any questions ... seems lots of people have ideas of Sound Lab which are not quite accurate... one tip to keep in mind...the backplate electronics for Sound Lab are ALL the same... meaning if you buy their smallest model and want to get bigger panels later, the same back plates can be used and they are worth nearly $10K just themselves. Note also that bigger models are easier to drive than smaller models (lots seem to think the opposite) - don't think a smaller amp is better suited for a smaller model - the membrane is lighter than the air it moves, so moving more radiating area takes nearly same energy as moving a smaller membrane so in fact you may find yourself wanting more power to get more air moving from a smaller panel (may be more info than you are looking for here, but it keeps coming up) - several points like this ... if you are interested in some more I just posted a new video on pre and post 2006 panels.

Oh ... and resale value ... well most never want to sell their Sound Labs once they discover the magic!
(but it sure is good to know you can get models that fit your space - note they ALL have 45 degree dispersion) Take care!

 

[Avidlistener]

super interesting video- thanks.

 

[jazzdude99]

I have two sets of Allies and it is obviously dependent on what is behind the speaker but they can be useful to get the speakers set up.

I have a pair of 90 degree SL and a pair of 45 degree of SL, both with new, the latest panels and I sit relatively close in both systems... I disagree with those who say there is less precise focus with one over the other. In fact I find one pair more natural sounding in terms of a stage perspective and "depth" when playing back Source material that actually has real depth.

Quads had a miniature sized image and many other shortcomings such as severe beaming... Move your head an inch etc. Not the case with SL ELS. They have a realistic sized image and in my experience with tube amplifiers the image is much larger than with a solid state amplifier. In fact I would venture the image size shrinks by about 40% with solid state. Never heard a class D amplifier.

Hi Willbthr

I have a pair of the 90 degree M1s - as you have both the 45 and the 90 would you be able to comment on the differences between the two please? Ralph mentioned imaging is better in the 45 - is that also your experience?

Cheers

Andy

 

[Mrmb]

FWIW, After presenting Roger West with a blueprint of my proposed listening room in 2019, he provided the following:

"All things considered, I prefer 45 degree dispersion." "I recommend 90 degree dispersion only in cases where a very wide listening area is used." "45 degree dispersion reduces side-wall reflections and adds 3dB to sensitivity due to having a higher energy density." "I would recommend 45 degree dispersion for your room."

I obviously went with Roger's 45-degree dispersion recommendation.

NOTE: A blueprint of my room is attached. My Majestic 845PX SoundLabs are in the ~18-foot wide "Audio Alcove" area approx. 6' out into the room, from the front wall.

 

[ChrisSoundLab]

Hi Willbthr

I have a pair of the 90 degree M1s - as you have both the 45 and the 90 would you be able to comment on the differences between the two please? Ralph mentioned imaging is better in the 45 - is that also your experience?

Cheers

Andy

Hi Andy, I just saw your post to me in SLOG - I don't get notices when someone replies,...I have to manually check it seems. Anyway, I think Bill has answered your question.... basically the side wall refection is the total issue regarding any perceived imaging difference between 45 and 90 degree dispersion. Theory is (and I won't do a great job explaining this quickly) is that the sound coming off the panels travels 'straight' (perpendicular) off the membrane as it is functioning as a line source. Also all wavelengths that are shorter than the width of the panel are traveling 'beaming' out from the panel (which is why the flat cells are arranged to appear as a curve and which achieves the degree angle of dispersion) (of course lower frequencies do not beam, but the imagining has much to do with mid and higher frequencies than lower) So....when you sit in the middle listening position that means that a lot of sound energy is flying past either above your ears or below your ears and a lot is traveling past your left side and right (not actually direct to your ears) ... it's a bit over-simplified of course, but only sound that goes 'into' your ear is what you hear.... having more energy with 45 degree dispersion directed to you increases (I think) the SPL or volume, but the imagining is more related to how much the sound is interacting with other parts of your room - if the room is very wide and there is no chance for side wall reflection (like first order reflection) then it's 'ok' and fills a large room naturally... but not so much if the room is narrow ... of course room treatment etc. can all change and support this one way or another... and to remember the back wave and how you treat that is also very critical - keeping in mind there is a virtual convergence behind the speaker - be it 45 or 90 degrees and depending on what you do with that changes a lot of things too.... (standing 3 ~4 feet behind the speaker to experience that is very useful and interesting!) I hope I made sense to you. Of course all the other changes to performance after PX panels introduced and then the first application of distributed resonance and then to use bass focus arrangement also added a lot of performance improvements!

 

[jazzdude99]

Hi Andy, I just saw your post to me in SLOG - I don't get notices when someone replies,...I have to manually check it seems. Anyway, I think Bill has answered your question.... basically the side wall refection is the total issue regarding any perceived imaging difference between 45 and 90 degree dispersion. Theory is (and I won't do a great job explaining this quickly) is that the sound coming off the panels travels 'straight' (perpendicular) off the membrane as it is functioning as a line source. Also all wavelengths that are shorter than the width of the panel are traveling 'beaming' out from the panel (which is why the flat cells are arranged to appear as a curve and which achieves the degree angle of dispersion) (of course lower frequencies do not beam, but the imagining has much to do with mid and higher frequencies than lower) So....when you sit in the middle listening position that means that a lot of sound energy is flying past either above your ears or below your ears and a lot is traveling past your left side and right (not actually direct to your ears) ... it's a bit over-simplified of course, but only sound that goes 'into' your ear is what you hear.... having more energy with 45 degree dispersion directed to you increases (I think) the SPL or volume, but the imagining is more related to how much the sound is interacting with other parts of your room - if the room is very wide and there is no chance for side wall reflection (like first order reflection) then it's 'ok' and fills a large room naturally... but not so much if the room is narrow ... of course room treatment etc. can all change and support this one way or another... and to remember the back wave and how you treat that is also very critical - keeping in mind there is a virtual convergence behind the speaker - be it 45 or 90 degrees and depending on what you do with that changes a lot of things too.... (standing 3 ~4 feet behind the speaker to experience that is very useful and interesting!) I hope I made sense to you. Of course all the other changes to performance after PX panels introduced and then the first application of distributed resonance and then to use bass focus arrangement also added a lot of performance improvements!

Chris and Mrmb - thanks so much for the info. My room is 14 foot wide 30 foot long but irregular in shape. I have 7 feet open behind the speakers and don’t hear any abberations from the back wave. I’m sat relatively near field, and the sound is fantastic.

I will look into replacing my panels from what I’ve learned from you guys. The improvement in the internal structure along with the curve should really elevate my sound. I’m familiar with the sound a friend has with his U1 PX - the realism is astonishing.

Hopefully I’ll get there one day

 

[WillBthr]

Thank you Chris, great video and photos on the internals of the panels, then and now.

 

[WillBthr]

Also, regarding the panel angles (correct me if I am wrong Chris), it appears as if the 45 degrees panels are the standard, the only offering.

 

[ChrisSoundLab]

Also, regarding the panel angles (correct me if I am wrong Chris), it appears as if the 45 degrees panels are the standard, the only offering.

Hi Bill, thanks for the support ... although I kept the 90 degree as an option when I first revised the website, after my last visit to Roger last November I discovered that nobody has actually ordered 90 degrees really since the PX new panels came out. Therefore I have removed it because it mostly adds a bit too much for people to think about and really nobody in a residential setting needs the 90 degrees. It is my opinion that if your room is so big to warrant having 90 degrees, it is probably best to get TWO panels per side and put them together for a continuous curve which would then be 90 degrees ! Only people with earlier models who wish to re-membrane and keep their original panels have them sent in to Sound Lab, and indeed sometimes the entire panel has to be replaced which is not a problem actually. Make sense?

 

[ChrisSoundLab]

Chris and Mrmb - thanks so much for the info. My room is 14 foot wide 30 foot long but irregular in shape. I have 7 feet open behind the speakers and don’t hear any abberations from the back wave. I’m sat relatively near field, and the sound is fantastic.

I will look into replacing my panels from what I’ve learned from you guys. The improvement in the internal structure along with the curve should really elevate my sound. I’m familiar with the sound a friend has with his U1 PX - the realism is astonishing.

Hopefully I’ll get there one day

Hey Andy, let me know if I can support if you are getting close. (I am both domestic and international distributer so all orders/requests eventually go thru me - and our dealers are really great enthusiastic supporters with great knowledge). Yes, many enjoy using Sound Lab in the near field - there are no separate sections of panel for high, mid or low frequencies.... all frequencies are emitted isophasically from the membrane - meaning of course you do not have to be several feet away to allow for a tweeter's output and bass driver's output to merge. It's also incidentally (I'm sure you know) the reason why SL is such a realistic and faithful transducer because in by doing this the phases and timing of all frequencies is basically perfect (to which our ears are particularly sensitive)

 

[jazzdude99]

Thanks Chris - it will be a while before I’m ready to do the upgrade- many thanks for the information and knowledge.

Cheers

Andy

Hey Andy, let me know if I can support if you are getting close. (I am both domestic and international distributer so all orders/requests eventually go thru me - and our dealers are really great enthusiastic supporters with great knowledge). Yes, many enjoy using Sound Lab in the near field - there are no separate sections of panel for high, mid or low frequencies.... all frequencies are emitted isophasically from the membrane - meaning of course you do not have to be several feet away to allow for a tweeter's output and bass driver's output to merge. It's also incidentally (I'm sure you know) the reason why SL is such a realistic and faithful transducer because in by doing this the phases and timing of all frequencies is basically perfect (to which our ears are particularly sensitive)