Apogee vs Electrostatic

[Argonaut]

Well I can but echo the considerations penned by awsmone, I have more than once felt it necessary to defend the CLX's, not against the verasity of what folks have experienced, often under show conditions, or poor dealer demo, but rather against the misrepresentation of the speakers true capabilities, particularly when partnered with ancilary sources and/Or Pre/Power Amplication with which they are not best matched synergistically.

I find that they are invariably highly forensic and unforgiving in examining the relative merits of any and all componants upstream of them. Pair them for instance with a digital source and/Or amplification that majors in bleeding edge attack, hyper resolution and micro detail at the expence of tone, texture and body then that is exactly how the CLX's will present the musical content, likewise with Pre/Power, down to cables and fuses that can be a Royal pain in the butt to synergize .

Conversely, partner them with say high quality RtoR tape or Koetsu/SPU, SME 30 front end into ARC REF10 phono pre and ARC REF 250se's then the CLX's will deliver Dense Tonality and Liquid Texture in concert with an outstandingly lifelike and accurate rendition of instruments and vocals.

 

[Big Dog RJ]

I raised this thread a while ago to try and determine ML panel reliability. It isn't great, I went through some changes in 17 years using 5 sets of panels in total.

Worse than that, when replacing a set of Aerius panels, I ended up installing 3 sets when sourcing a new set as the first 2 sets were duff.

The trouble with MLs is the coated membrane is directly exposed to the air and sunlight, and that doesn't do it any longevity favours.

That said, Apogees fail too, but they rely on magnetic field and current running through a foil, making them more immune to direct expose to the elements.

There's no doubt in my mind that I prefer my Apogee Duetta set up to my old Ascent/Descent combo by a margin.

There's also no doubt in my mind that you could build a Duetta whose performance is considerably above the high spec pair I own. I know exactly what I'd do to make an absolutely bloody killer pair!

Killer pair- wow! First killer bass and killer this and that... and now killer pair! Miiite sounds like if I was to listen to your Apogee's I might get killed! Does it bite?

Sorry mate, no pun intended, just finished watching Piranha 3D, just for kicks, what an awful movie- and boy do they have some killer fishies... so I thought of your killer statements.

Yes, I do agree that Apogee's are superb speakers with the right amplification no doubt. but for them to really perform you need killer amps with killer watts and a killer room...
Miiite, I'm loving this killer stuff.

The Duetta's I heard at the same dealer chap's place where I got my Rega TT, has them driven with Sumo amplifiers. Very old design and outdated but they do have a superb control on the bass and transient delivery. I believe the Sumo amps are the Andromeda 300 watt monoblocks, capable of delivering close to 1000 w when impedence dips. Ideal for ribbons. He has invested so much in repairs mods and upgrades on the main circuit, they are no longer Sumo originals. Another set of monoblcoks he as tucked away in a corner are the mighty Carver Silver 9T mono's. Huge affairs, said they drive the Apogee's to glorious levels but no musicality at all.

I must admit the ribbon bass is very nice and some superb weight to it like no other transducer but that about all she wrote. For me it is still the CLX bass- super fast and articulate, one of the most natural bass response delivered without a killer sub!

I will be heading to work tomorrow after a long two weeks of back therapy, the physio said I have been sitting slouched whiles listening to music for long hrs... caused the back to jelly affect. I also need to make dinner tonight, so I will clock of for now- need to make a killer dinner!

Sorry User211, I just love your terminology miiite.
You bogan mate! go the storm! Cheers RJ

 

[Big Dog RJ]

The only truly reliable planar speakers are from Acoustat. Original, unmodified specimens are out there still in the thousands in perfect working condition that are in the 40 year old range. Even the oldest, direct drive models work fine, although the amps need refurbishment...not surprising with caps at high temperatures (they are OTLs). MLs fail, Apogees fail, Maggies fail, Soundlabs fail, Audiostatics fail. Only Acoustats are really reliable...and they sound very good too. When I say fail, I mean within 20 years or so.

If Acoustat are so superb and reliable, then why the hec doesn't the company exist any longer?

Miiite! I think dinosaurs were extinct at the wrong time unfortunately. However, this gave birth to many new species along the way... Apogee's, Acoustat, and other panels have gone...
it is now a handful (usual one or two chappies) that have a passion in these and have restored them for the better. Well done, good on them mate!

As for us humble folks in down unda, where the weather is like a bloody cooker during summers and winters drop to close zero, it so dry the skin peels off my face during spring and I look like one of those Piranha's! All I need is a machete in hand to approach a high-end dealer and then I can walk out with some nice amps...

It is not practical to buy Apogee's here and have them shipped over up state for any service. Unless you were a millionaire and had all the dosh, in which case it wouldn't be Apogee's, rather Pendragons would be a much better solution.

For those with more realistic budgets, like us humble folks, these hew maggies 30.7's look pretty good. Although I can clearly see the Typani's coming back to style. So this should be a good fit and great design, one that will fill a large room nicely but you have to have "killer amps."

Now these new maggies is what I call value for money, even the MG3.7i's are high in that value range. When I had my MG3.5/R's, I first drove them with a CJ Premier 11A (not enough oomph), then a Krell 150w something (better oomph but no humpty) then a massive Parasound 300w something (much better but no musicality) and finally big Manley/VTL Ref 350's- now that was plenty of oomph, humpty & including dumpty!

Great match up that was until... we got a pair of CLS's- the world and the whole spectrum changed! What a superb presentation with adequate bass lines for most recorded music.
I guess Martin Logan could revive this concept by re-introducing the Statements but at what price and what point? The Neoliths already do just that for a more compact design, without having separate bass towers lying around the room, limiting normal human movement. For now, the CLX's are the overall epitome of quality sound.

And that's all she wrote, cheers RJ

 

[Big Dog RJ]

hey where's that Italian stallion Gian? he's the one who started this killer thread, now I want to kill him!

Just kidding Gian, I love your accent miiite! Yes, I can understand the snobbish behavior in Italy when it comes to high-end audio. In fact my home town little CMB was just like that! They would prejudge you from the type of car you drove and clothes you wear. So I would just rock up in my little hot-rod Honda integra type R, and thongs (slippers in Aus), and skinney and shorts. Ended up having a dealership as well, the rest of the snobbish folk really didn't know what to wear after they visited our showroom on opening night! Ha!

It's so dam hot and humid over there, if you were to wear full suit, you'll be sweating like a sponge soaked in trouble water... with added sweat stains in unwanted places, very hard to conceal... believe me I've been there. Fans and air con are great but little effect once you go outside.
Cheers Gian and enjoy the music miiite!
RJ

 

[ddk]

Loved my Quad 57, Soundlab A1+B1 and Apogee Diva even more but never going back to them because amplification is still a major problem and I love SETs best! Besides, good horns kill any panel when it comes to dynamics.

david

 

[Big Dog RJ]

if dynamics is all you're after then my neighbor who is a Uni student, has a big pair of Cervin Vega's driven with a huge Onkyo receiver- seriously beats all dynamics put together!
what type of horns are you referring to? any Avant Garde duo's in there?

 

[bonzo75]

if dynamics is all you're after then my neighbor who is a Uni student, has a big pair of Cervin Vega's driven with a huge Onkyo receiver- seriously beats all dynamics put together!
what type of horns are you referring to? any Avant Garde duo's in there?

You need really big horns. Duos are not dynamic at all. Trios with bass horns are but DDk does not like them I think, mainly due to tone.

 

[Big Dog RJ]

yeah, like those massive stacked bass horns! seriously mate, how many of us with realistic finances can afford bloody bass horns let alone Avant Garde Trio's? with this kind of spend just to get that added dynamic range you're talking about means not only do you have very large disposal income but also regular income coming into your account in 7 figures...

so Avant Garde duo's are not dynamic at all... ok, I guess Mathias & Tron have some re-designing to, seems like German audio engineering on the duo is not up to standard.

The last time I listened to a pair of Duo's, not only were the dynamics impressive but also the acceleration and jump factor, I nearly fell off the chair after me pants dropped off...
they were far too dynamic for my delicate ears and this leads back to the basics, hence why I don't fany horns. rather stick with panels and stats and now we finally all can agree that the CLX Art is the best!

and they all lived happily ever after...
sweat dreams, RJ

 

[bonzo75]

I agree with you for the size and budget there is no horn that matches duetta/scintilla size space requirements and budget and equivalent stats. The Big Horns worth getting need space required for a FR or Grand, almost, maybe less. Yes there are custom horns, not commercial, in which case you have to search for the right person who can do that for you, that can be the same budget but then they won't have resale value, so have to be sure they are the final speakers.

Th dynamics you describe with duos is exactly that - far too, not balanced dynamic. Dynamics should flow, not be forced

 

[Big Dog RJ]

ok one more for the road...

1. Firstly this thread which was created by that Italian stallion ( wherever he is...) is reffered for Apogee vs stats. also why Apogee? can't you people please let Apogee RIP!

2. what is it with this big "dynamics" people keep referring to? Isn't the music you're listening to not dynamic enough? some of these artificial dynamics you're looking for is not even on the bloody recording to begin with! extra dynamics is a re-created tone that is totally artificial.

I truly hope all you highly dynamic bro's out there come back reincarnated as bolts of lighting, for that's about as dynamic things are going to get. seriously?

 

[bonzo75]

ok one more for the road...

1. Firstly this thread which was created by that Italian stallion ( wherever he is...) is reffered for Apogee vs stats. also why Apogee? can't you people please let Apogee RIP!

2. what is it with this big "dynamics" people keep referring to? Isn't the music you're listening to not dynamic enough? some of these artificial dynamics you're looking for is not even on the bloody recording to begin with! extra dynamics is a re-created tone that is totally artificial.

I truly hope all you highly dynamic bro's out there come back reincarnated as bolts of lighting, for that's about as dynamic things are going to get. seriously?

Sorry, but Apogee is the best or top two three speakers I know off, and the dynamics are the most natural along with the couple of big horns, not the kind of dynamics that you are looking at. Not the artificial extra that you are referring to. Anyway this thread is going nowhere IMO.

 

[Big Dog RJ]

Where is that Gian60? has he become gian70...
hey Gian mate I'm personally going to come over there and kick you in the dynamic butt with my killer boots! regardless of whether you're in your Ferrari or not!

just kidding miiiite!
cheers bro, I'm off to the gym, trying to get back slowly slowly... fitness is very important especially good for bowel movements.
bye for now, RJ

 

[ddk]

if dynamics is all you're after then my neighbor who is a Uni student, has a big pair of Cervin Vega's driven with a huge Onkyo receiver- seriously beats all dynamics put together!
what type of horns are you referring to? any Avant Garde duo's in there?

You’re confusing loud with dynamic BDRJ! No, dynamics isn’t all I’m after panels have the detail and most of the resolution of good horns so there was no point to mentioning it and you missed the SET part.

david

 

[morricab]

If Acoustat are so superb and reliable, then why the hec doesn't the company exist any longer?

Miiite! I think dinosaurs were extinct at the wrong time unfortunately. However, this gave birth to many new species along the way... Apogee's, Acoustat, and other panels have gone...
it is now a handful (usual one or two chappies) that have a passion in these and have restored them for the better. Well done, good on them mate!

As for us humble folks in down unda, where the weather is like a bloody cooker during summers and winters drop to close zero, it so dry the skin peels off my face during spring and I look like one of those Piranha's! All I need is a machete in hand to approach a high-end dealer and then I can walk out with some nice amps...

It is not practical to buy Apogee's here and have them shipped over up state for any service. Unless you were a millionaire and had all the dosh, in which case it wouldn't be Apogee's, rather Pendragons would be a much better solution.

For those with more realistic budgets, like us humble folks, these hew maggies 30.7's look pretty good. Although I can clearly see the Typani's coming back to style. So this should be a good fit and great design, one that will fill a large room nicely but you have to have "killer amps."

Now these new maggies is what I call value for money, even the MG3.7i's are high in that value range. When I had my MG3.5/R's, I first drove them with a CJ Premier 11A (not enough oomph), then a Krell 150w something (better oomph but no humpty) then a massive Parasound 300w something (much better but no musicality) and finally big Manley/VTL Ref 350's- now that was plenty of oomph, humpty & including dumpty!

Great match up that was until... we got a pair of CLS's- the world and the whole spectrum changed! What a superb presentation with adequate bass lines for most recorded music.
I guess Martin Logan could revive this concept by re-introducing the Statements but at what price and what point? The Neoliths already do just that for a more compact design, without having separate bass towers lying around the room, limiting normal human movement. For now, the CLX's are the overall epitome of quality sound.

And that's all she wrote, cheers RJ

When you are on your second or third panels for your amazing Martin Logans we can talk again.

As for Apogee, didn't you know mate, that the man responsible for the revival is down under? What? missed the memo? Guess it only went out to Apogee fans...

 

[Big Dog RJ]

ddk: yes I know what you are referring to in terms of dynamics. I was being a bit silly there and just wanted to let loose for once miiite!

There's this chap at the gym trying to squat 150kg and I think he's going to drop his nuts...
When I was in shape during my mighty rugby days, I was able to do 180kg into 6 reps and that was it! now I can only squat 60kg not too bad for 45...

Bonzo: for the record yes agreed Apogee's are like no other. I know the sound quite well, this was my dad's ref system for years! along with the Diva's we had the original CJ Art pre, & various power amps came & went since we had to sell whatever left in the showroom as well as main demo room. I think the best was when we had the cj premier 8 mono's, that was something real special. until... I went to the UK for higher studs & rugby union contract with New England under 24. The system was neglected and one of our co-partners played us out. everything fell apart including the speakers and no one qualified or experienced enough in panels was able to conduct proper repairs.

then there was one importer who was the distributor for Infinity & Carver (cmb traders) he had an expert techie who returned from the middle east, and started working for them. That was the time we slowly started to get things working again and managed to obtain original parts plus started importing maggies as well. another few years passed and our co-business fella became an alcoholic! The system was actually damaged during a lightening storm believe it or not. That idiot just didn't listen to either of us. apart from tropical climate, taking apart panels and putting them back together was such an effort, we would have to close shop just to change a ribbon element or have a look at the cross overs...

fast fwd 10 years we shut down, fwd another 10 and we migrated to sunny Aussie land! good place to be until you run into a bogan!

Morricab: sounds like you w waiting for my Logan's to break/ fail... now that's not nice to wish someone ill fate, naughty boy. perhaps I should whip you with a killer whip!
yes I know the ML's will fail one day and you know what? Although electronic devices such as speakers, amps etc break down and can be repaired numerous times, we as humans cannot! we only live once matie, so do enjoy what you've got for life is too short. appreciate what others have and embrace life! and most of all appreciate what you have, as for me, I certainly do appreciate my ML Ethos!
cheers yall, & they lived happily ever after...

 

[morricab]

ddk: yes I know what you are referring to in terms of dynamics. I was being a bit silly there and just wanted to let loose for once miiite!

There's this chap at the gym trying to squat 150kg and I think he's going to drop his nuts...
When I was in shape during my mighty rugby days, I was able to do 180kg into 6 reps and that was it! now I can only squat 60kg not too bad for 45...

Bonzo: for the record yes agreed Apogee's are like no other. I know the sound quite well, this was my dad's ref system for years! along with the Diva's we had the original CJ Art pre, & various power amps came & went since we had to sell whatever left in the showroom as well as main demo room. I think the best was when we had the cj premier 8 mono's, that was something real special. until... I went to the UK for higher studs & rugby union contract with New England under 24. The system was neglected and one of our co-partners played us out. everything fell apart including the speakers and no one qualified or experienced enough in panels was able to conduct proper repairs.

then there was one importer who was the distributor for Infinity & Carver (cmb traders) he had an expert techie who returned from the middle east, and started working for them. That was the time we slowly started to get things working again and managed to obtain original parts plus started importing maggies as well. another few years passed and our co-business fella became an alcoholic! The system was actually damaged during a lightening storm believe it or not. That idiot just didn't listen to either of us. apart from tropical climate, taking apart panels and putting them back together was such an effort, we would have to close shop just to change a ribbon element or have a look at the cross overs...

fast fwd 10 years we shut down, fwd another 10 and we migrated to sunny Aussie land! good place to be until you run into a bogan!

Morricab: sounds like you w waiting for my Logan's to break/ fail... now that's not nice to wish someone ill fate, naughty boy. perhaps I should whip you with a killer whip!
yes I know the ML's will fail one day and you know what? Although electronic devices such as speakers, amps etc break down and can be repaired numerous times, we as humans cannot! we only live once matie, so do enjoy what you've got for life is too short. appreciate what others have and embrace life! and most of all appreciate what you have, as for me, I certainly do appreciate my ML Ethos!
cheers yall, & they lived happily ever after...

Wishing you ill? Where did you get that from. Is a prediction of the future the same as wishing it to come true? Only if you are actively helping to make it true and last time I checked I haven't been to your place or sabotaged your speakers. All these inferior designed electrostats fail. Only Beveridge and Acoustats don't fail. 40 year old Beveridges are still out there with original panels working perfectly and sounding great. Their built-in amps need work by now...new caps and all.

 

[gian60]

Dear Big Dog,
but in Australia are all crazy like you?
My son,after 6 months in New Zeland in University for exchange will go to Australia for holiday from 17 november to 12 december
If are all crazy like you i will tell to go to visit another country

 

[wisnon]

I have had good ribbons for about 8 years, just replaced with Vapor Nimbus, because its more efficient and have a smaller tweeter. The imaging is unsurpassed on the ribbons. Never found anything better for imaging, particularly standing or off-axis.I've listened to many electrostatics in showrooms and at 15 years of shows. They certainly render the detail nicely, but always disappointed me for dynamics, slam factor.
Even ribbons can have this problem. When I first got my ribbons, they did not have the slam factor and I almost sold them. I eventually decided that it was the crossover at fault, so I threw out the crossovers, wiring and connectors and started from scratch. After about $1500 in a new board, the best crossover components and tuning the crossover (every ribbon has a resonance, so there is a notch filter at some frequency), replacing the wiring with silver-plated solid copper with Teflon insulation and remounting better connectors, these ribbons were finally reference quality. I could properly evaluate my DAC SQ with them. They also drove to loud volumes using my 30W SET tube monoblocks. I now have these for sale at a steal. Who ever gets them will be very lucky:

http://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=151272.0

Moral of the story: with full-range ribbons in particular, the crossover design and component quality is what makes the speaker dynamic. It is possible to get a shock-wave from a ribbon. I've always lived in dry climates however.

Steve N.
Empirical Audio

Hi Steve,

No comment on the rest of your piece, buty on the bold section, just to let you know that proper HEIL Air velocity transformers image like crazy, on or off-axis, especially the BIG one. very fast too, as it outputs at 4.7x times the input speed, as you would expect from an accordian in a an intense electromagnetic field.

 

[awsmone]

Dear Big Dog,
but in Australia are all crazy like you?
My son,after 6 months in New Zeland in University for exchange will go to Australia for holiday from 17 november to 12 december
If are all crazy like you i will tell to go to visit another country

Dear Gian

Please believe me BD is not typical Australian

Frankly I don’t understand him....and I am an Aussie

Where is your son going to in Australia for study ?

Please accept my apologies for BD, I have called the local dog catchers, could be Australia’s first rapid dog case lol

On another note, I think the topic should be changed to Apogee and electrostatics , as most electrostatic owners also admire or have had Apogee, myself included, the title is a dichotomy which doesn’t reflect most people’s opunions ...

 

[morricab]

Hi Steve,

No comment on the rest of your piece, buty on the bold section, just to let you know that proper HEIL Air velocity transformers image like crazy, on or off-axis, especially the BIG one. very fast too, as it outputs at 4.7x times the input speed, as you would expect from an accordian in a an intense electromagnetic field.

View attachment 36868

What do you mean by input speed? The input is an electrical signal...I don't see how the according can move faster than electrons!