AppleTV X - I am playing with something new

[Xymox]

Chris, congrats on your DeJitterIt network switch. "Sounds" like it looks and sounds great!

I have 3 systems in my home. Dedicated theater being renovated, will be done in 3-4 months, with 14' wide screen, Sony GTZ-380 projector and Lumagen 5348 video processor, ISCO x 1.25 anamorphic lens, Trinnov Altitude 32 SSP, a 11.7.12 system! And of course Trinnov is ROON Ready for music. Family room system Exasound s88 7.1ch DAC, but its a 5.1 system Totem Acoustics on wall system (super high vaulted ceiling, can't do more speakers) with PS Audio Stellar monoblocks and REL subwoofers and a 65" tv with a Marantz SSP, and of course ROON for music. Basement 5.2.4 system with Totem Acoustiics on wall, NAD amplifiers, REL subwoofers, 65" OLED, Marantz SSP, and Kaleidscape movie players.
Appletvxs in basement system and one going in dedicated home theater! In my family room system, I use a Sonore OpticalModule Deluxe prior to the Exasound s88 DAC. In my basement system, I am using DJM Electronics Gigafoil, one for Appletvx and also one each for each Kaleidescape player (4k player, and blu ray disc/quality player); also a modified Cisco network switch (Fidilizer Ethernet 2), which feeds an Uptone Audio Etherregen network switch, then the Applietvx connects to the clean side of Etheregen and the Kaleidescape connect to the other side of the Etherregen, of course each with a Gigafoil v4 (converts from ethernet to optical and back to ethernet) inbetween. I tried taking out the Etheregen but darn ,Appletvx looks even better with it in. I tried taking out the Gigafoil v4, same, looks better with it in. And yea, sound is quite amazing!

Note that I have my ROON server, an Exasound Delta, and my network server, a 64 GB WDMyCloudPR4100 in my master bedroom. Everything is hardwired ethernet.

Of course, scary, if I add good linear power supplies for the Gigafoils may well improve even more. PLEASE STOP ME!

Of course I am interested in the Dejitterit switch. But with multiple audio and video systems just don't know how this could be accomlished effectively. And the Gigafoil v4s in basement (and planned for theater), and Sonore Audio Deluxe Optical Module in family room, do work well.

Your issue is the important one. If you create a clean AV network it really needs to be thought out.

I have been doing a wholly isolated seperate "Clean" network in homes for more then 10 years. I always run 2 ethernet and a single mode optical to all the AV locations back to a the main equipment rack. I create a clean and a dirty network with thier own switches and do a version of the Switch X but on a bigger scale and feed the clean switch its own feed from a modded router. I feed the main AV room, or rooms, with a single mode fiber each. I do this for grounding isolation. If its a high end room I plug the single mode optical into a Switch X type switch and fully isolate that room and plug in ethernet and a access point for that room for audio and have a second access point for dirty wifi and dirty ethernet and that comes from one of the ethernet feeds from the main rack from the dirty side.

I have done this forever. In Mandolorean terms "This is the way"..

A high end audio system, if being seriously purist, should not have any packets that flow into or out of its system unless required for audio use. So the audio system should have its own server, its own renderer, its own wifi and its own dedicated ipad that just does the music GUI. iPad stripped off all apps except what is needed. This network should only connect to the internet, nothing locally, and just to stream from online or update the metadata of roon or a PnP player database.

This is the super purist way of doing this. BUT. If you do it from scratch when building a house, or doing a remodel, its pretty easy. Its more of a mind set.

Where things get complicated is when you do automation or do things like you want to share your iphone to the appleTV.

Things like a main audio server that feeds all rooms means all rooms need to be on the clean network.

Its a headache to impliment if you have a bunch of rooms of gear and you have C4 or Crestron.

ALL THAT SAID... The magic in the Switch X is electrical. Its clocking, voltage regulation and RF control. It can be used as just a switch and also have seriously good results. The whole isolated clean network is just the purist option.

For audio use its complex.

For use with a ATVX its easy. Sit the ATVX on top of it, plug it into the clean port. Plug your existing network into port 4 and your done. Use the remote that comes with it, no screen sharing from wireless devices tho from the dirty side.

 

[MarkusBarkus]

...I had the isolated audio network you describe for a few years @Xymox but about a year ago I added a second, fiber ISP just for audio. I love it and it sounds great. Just the Taiko server on the line, and an iPad for the remote head. I am considering hardwiring the iPad in, but your Aruba mod is very trick! Wish you sold it separately! Really enjoy reading about your projects. Thank you for pushing the envelope!

 

[Steve Bruzonsky]

I've been watching Guardians of the Galaxy 3. Chris reminds me of the High Evolutionary in the movie - except he's a good guy but like the High Evolutionary a bit mad when it comes to the science! Defintely highly evolved!

 

[VPN]

I think it‘s so great that @Xymox has done this work and shared it with the world. I have been dreaming of an improved Apple TV for a long time. Mine is coming in a couple of days - will post impressions here.

Now I would love a “Kaleidescape-X” as that should benefit from the same type of upgrades to the audio and video that the Apple TV has. The first thing I did when I installed my Strato player was throw out the $1 power supply (which was no noisy I could hear the HD spin through my speakers). Since K-scape is shipping units with junk supplies, you know how much consideration they gave to jitter and HDMI output quality… But this is for another day and thread.

For now, I’m celebrating that the Apple TV X even exists!
Price: I think it’s very fair. Consider that the ATV costs $200 and a good linear power supply is at least $500. There are tons more updates in the X than the power supply as we know, and huge amounts of R&D and trial and error went in, and then hours of labor for each unit. And a margin needs to be made, of course. Plus the dealer also needs to make a margin… so while $2500 is certainly not cheap, it’s priced to share the magic with as many people as possible.
We should all be thankful that we can just buy this and have it arrive in a few days.
If we don’t have good content, there’s no point to having a world-class system. And in the AV world, good quality sources are ceasing to exist.

Me too! I would love to have a Kaleidescape-X.

 

[Steve Bruzonsky]

Me too! I would love to have a Kaleidescape-X.

I've done the next best thing with my Kaleidescape Strato C 4k blu ray player and also my Kaleidescape Alto (plays blu rays via ethernet from my Kaleidescape DV-700 disc vault) - Strato C and Alto each have a DJM Electronics Gigafoil v4 (converts internally ethernet to optical and back to ethernet) and each is getting a Teddy Pardo linear power supply arriving tomorrow. I guess it Kaleidscape w - (w comes before x, since its only fair to leave the "x" moniker to whatever Chris mods)!

 

[Sa-dono]

@Xymox

There are at least two versions of the Apple TV 4K Gen 2 box. The newer version has the HomePod on the back, while the older one does not. Can you please confirm that there aren’t any parts differences between units in the different versions of the box? Thanks!

 

[Steve Bruzonsky]

To my knowledge the original Appletv 4k came out in 2018 - I bought it. A new versio;n came out in 2021 - I bought it. A newer version came out in 2022 - my mistake, I bought it - slimmed down version, as Chris has said, not made near as well - I was having interference on the audio on one of my OTA antenna channels (using HDHomerun OTA tuner with an outside OTA antenna) which I did not have with the 2021 or 2018 models or the Appletvx. The homepod is simply a speaker which might be bundled with an Appletv 4k but not the ones I bought. I have multiple ones in my home. Now 2 active Appletvx and 1 Appletv 2021. The Appletv 4k each comes in a squarish small box which includes a remote and a power cord.
Per Chris taking them apart, the 2021 is a bit improved over the 2018, although from the outside they look the same. The 2022 is somewhat smaller and only if you buy the more expensive one do you get a wired ethernet port. The 2022 one may be as good or better than other company's streamers, but it sure ain't as good as the 2021 or even 2018 in terms of build quality.

 

[VPN]

I've done the next best thing with my Kaleidescape Strato C 4k blu ray player and also my Kaleidescape Alto (plays blu rays via ethernet from my Kaleidescape DV-700 disc vault) - Strato C and Alto each have a DJM Electronics Gigafoil v4 (converts internally ethernet to optical and back to ethernet) and each is getting a Teddy Pardo linear power supply arriving tomorrow. I guess it Kaleidscape w - (w comes before x, since its only fair to leave the "x" moniker to whatever Chris mods)!

Hello Steve, The external power supply for the Kaleidescape makes a lot of sense. What did you see in terms of improvement using the DJM Electronics Gigafoil v4 with the Kaleidescape?

 

[Steve Bruzonsky]

Hello Steve, The external power supply for the Kaleidescape makes a lot of sense. What did you see in terms of improvement using the DJM Electronics Gigafoil v4 with the Kaleidescape?

The Appletvx alone is a nice improvement over the stock Appletv4k. However, it seems that with Chris' improvements, including linear power supply, to the Appletv4k, that it simply is higher resolution to the naked eye for video and the naked ear for audio - and more sensitive to the signal input - and thus I find the Gigafoil v4 simply improves it more. On video alone, taking the Gigafoil v4 in and out, I don't want it out. Same for the Appletvx vs the stock Appletv4k. Each layer of improvement - Appletvx, and then Gigafoil v4, simply adds to the "relaxation" and "naturalness" of the video and the audio that once you have it, switch back to the old one and you don't like it anymore. It just seems like each linear power supply and optical "tweak" allows one to sink deeper into picture and sound which is the director's intent, you can appreciate the visuals and sonics more and more and are so drawn into what you are watching!

 

[Xymox]

@Xymox

There are at least two versions of the Apple TV 4K Gen 2 box. The newer version has the HomePod on the back, while the older one does not. Can you please confirm that there aren’t any parts differences between units in the different versions of the box? Thanks!

The A2169 is what I use. I have never seen any parts variations on these A2169s.

 

[TP1]

I understand the differences in hardware between the A2169 and latest Apple TVs but in my theatre I always felt that the latest unit gave a better picture than the A2169. Could it be that with lower power consumption and less RFI caused less problems than the earlier versions?

 

[Xymox]

I understand the differences in hardware between the A2169 and latest Apple TVs but in my theatre I always felt that the latest unit gave a better picture than the A2169. Could it be that with lower power consumption and less RFI caused less problems than the earlier versions?

I have a video that compares the A2169 and the newest unit. I feel its pretty clear from my in depth measurements, tons of direct AB on a Sony A90J and the GTZ380 that the pic/sound are better on a stock A2169. I really wanted the newest one to be better, because then the 200+ clients who have a ATVX now would want to upgrade as I was ready to mod the new one.. BUT.. I could not make the new one look/sound better then the A2169..

The newest one seems to make it less expensive in pretty much every way. From a engineering standpoint I could never get the low HDMI jitter and noise floor from the newest unit that I could get from a A2169.. I think Apple wanted out of the AppleTV hardware market and decided to reduce costs.

For my use, after modding, the newest AppleTV, well, sucked.. IMHO.. Both sound and pic wise. Its all about pic and sound for what I do and the new one did not meet my standards.

 

[Xymox]

I have a B-Stock unit.. This is rare.. I will let it go for $1250 + shipping. Its open box and was at a few shows so it has some minor scratches. I cant sell it as new..

Full 2yr warranty.

PM me..

 

[Steve Bruzonsky]

Before I went with the Appletvx i have had each of the Appletv 4k models. With the 2023 one, with my HDHomerun app for my OTA antenna with HDHomerun4k tuner for OTA local channels, on NBC I would get fine picture but the sound was clipping. No such issue with the prior Appletv 4k units. No such issue with the Appletvx. Makes sense given Chris' taking the units apart, examining physical build, measurements, etc. Chris may be the "AV mad scientist" but I think he's right on re the latest Appletvx 2023 - substantially reduced build quality for Apple to make more $$ and perhaps sell more, but not as good from a "high end" audio video standpoint - especially when tweaked by Chris.

 

[TP1]

I have a video that compares the A2169 and the newest unit. I feel its pretty clear from my in depth measurements, tons of direct AB on a Sony A90J and the GTZ380 that the pic/sound are better on a stock A2169. I really wanted the newest one to be better, because then the 200+ clients who have a ATVX now would want to upgrade as I was ready to mod the new one.. BUT.. I could not make the new one look/sound better then the A2169..

The newest one seems to make it less expensive in pretty much every way. From a engineering standpoint I could never get the low HDMI jitter and noise floor from the newest unit that I could get from a A2169.. I think Apple wanted out of the AppleTV hardware market and decided to reduce costs.

For my use, after modding, the newest AppleTV, well, sucked.. IMHO.. Both sound and pic wise. Its all about pic and sound for what I do and the new one did not meet my standards.

I bought an Apple TV-X and it arrived the other day. It is an improvement over what I was using but I'll have to get out my original A2169 and compare it to the latest ATV again to see how far off I was. I use Sony A90 OLED and Sony 760ES laser projector and it was more than just me who thought the latest ATV was an improvement over the earlier model. Still, it may have been other factors such as programming etc so I'll do it again.

For those that haven't done so already, cleaning up the ethernet signal brings very obvious improvements. I use Uptone Etherregen and everything, particularly colours are so much better.

 

[Xymox]

Before I went with the Appletvx i have had each of the Appletv 4k models. With the 2023 one, with my HDHomerun app for my OTA antenna with HDHomerun4k tuner for OTA local channels, on NBC I would get fine picture but the sound was clipping. No such issue with the prior Appletv 4k units. No such issue with the Appletvx. Makes sense given Chris' taking the units apart, examining physical build, measurements, etc. Chris may be the "AV mad scientist" but I think he's right on re the latest Appletvx 2023 - substantially reduced build quality for Apple to make more $$ and perhaps sell more, but not as good from a "high end" audio video standpoint - especially when tweaked by Chris.

Thank you Steve. Steve was a tuff customer. He was more like a reviewer. He did all manner of AB with all sorts of devices. He now has 2 ATVX. I value his opnion as he was not at all convinced. His previous reviews in this thread were great.

 

[Xymox]

I bought an Apple TV-X and it arrived the other day. It is an improvement over what I was using but I'll have to get out my original A2169 and compare it to the latest ATV again to see how far off I was. I use Sony A90 OLED and Sony 760ES laser projector and it was more than just me who thought the latest ATV was an improvement over the earlier model. Still, it may have been other factors such as programming etc so I'll do it again.

For those that haven't done so already, cleaning up the ethernet signal brings very obvious improvements. I use Uptone Etherregen and everything, particularly colours are so much better.

I think nearly everyone who has bought one has done ABs. Usally with more difficult source devices like a modded Oppo or KScape.

Yes indeed ethernet matters. There are some interesting reasons why. One is directly addressed in the ATVX, noise and clocking on the ethernet signal and noise and regulation on the ethernet rcvr chip. To really nail a incoming ethernet signal your rcvr system is far more critical then you would think. So using lab grade regulation and clocking on this critical part makes a difference. Then feeding it all a better external externet signal improves even more. Thats why a lot of my clients now have a Switch X. I apply all the same methology to a router/switch and impliment a clean newtork to reduce packet noise. The best sound/pic combo is a Switch X + ATVX and good a good ethernet cable. However, I am not sure what cable is best. People have had varied results and nothing stands out as "best". Unshielded seems to be better, but, that is a complex thing all unto itself.

 

[Xymox]

Still, it may have been other factors such as programming etc so I'll do it again.

As far as stock units I found them pretty similar. I did blind ABs with a few people. The issue for me was that I could not implement the same level of improvements in the new one because of they way they cheapened the design. I could not get the same low phase noise on the HDMI clock and could not get the same jitter specs on HDMI. The signal itself was not as good from a technical perspective. I still have a modded newest unit here someplace all with replaced parts, added stuff and a 4 wire linear connection.

I would have loved to upgrade all my current clients, but, they would need to see a improvement and doing blind AB in really serious systems with my beta clients they all reported a worse pic/sound. It was the sound that really suffered. I heard that too. They may be doing different processing on the sound with the new unit, it was obvious, not subtle.

The cheap switching power supply in the newest one does not have the solid metal block shielding between it and the HDMI/Ethernet chip. So the RF noise from the switching supply is measureable on the HDMI and ethernet signals. On a A2169 its not.

Ethecially I just could not sell a modded newer unit. It measured, and reported in blind ABs worse performance..

Now stock units ? well, they looked about the same to me. Both pretty bad. SOund was the main issue for me and they both sounded flat, 2d and missing any real imaging or detail.

If someone wanted a modded newer unit, I suppose I could make one. I don't really recommend it tho.

 

[Xymox]

I have a B-Stock unit.. This is rare.. I will let it go for $1250 + shipping. Its open box and was at a few shows so it has some minor scratches. I cant sell it as new..

Full 2yr warranty.

PM me..

This did get sold.

 

[Steve Bruzonsky]

I gotta tell ya! the picture with the Appletvx is so amazing! But I still find myself sometimes comparing SDR vs HDR. Sometimes, its a close call, though HDR never seems to win out. Tonight, watching Season 4, Episode 1 of "For All Mankind", let there be no doubt. Especially the scene where with the asteroid that they are trying to tow to Mars. The blackness of space, stars in the background, the asteroid, the astronauts - the black level, the detail, the quasi 3D picture, its not a contast, as good as the Dolby Vision picture looks, the SDR picture no question looks better, more resolving, better everything! At least for the Appletv x. Note I am using it with 2019 LG C2 OLED, a Gigafoil v4 (converts ethernet to optical and back to ethernet - prior to Appletvx), and Fidilizer Etherstream2 network switch. Thanks a lot, Chris!