AppleTV X - I am playing with something new

It shocks some people (bad pun) to learn just where the currents pass in any circuit. They always make a lot of assumptions, which aren't really right. These details make a big difference in the performance of any kind of circuit. That's true for any circuit much more complicated than a flashlight. Being able to probe a circuit with the click of a mouse is really valuable and a blessing.

Your are a wizard level engineer :)

Modeling *can* be good. BUT. As I am sure you know, it can also be deceiving and like AI can hallucinate. Its hard to model ALL the parameters of everything. I donno, I guess i am just old and crazy, hahaha.. I have made my own audio gear of course, I am crazy enough that I LISTEN to the power supply lines and listen to various sections and spots in circuit. A poly cap and a attentuator and/or op=amp and I hook that to a balanced input on a audio rig and listen. This can be very insightful.

Of course, this really is only accurate when you add the little things into the simulation that are often just ignored to make analysis simpler. Factors like parasitic R's, L's, and C's for example. The engineering assumptions and simplifications that are usually ignored in the first place often continue to get ignored even with computer simulation, where adding a part is a couple mouse clicks away. That's the curse. Simulation of an over-simplified circuit isn't really much help.

Amen...

The thing is, is it even possible to really model EVERYTHING..

I guess I'd say that computer simulation can make an already good engineer better and give her or him more insight. My strong belief is that it's better to understand what's going on for the first, second, and third order effects of a circuit and getting those right first. Computer simulation speeds that process up and lets you do analysis that you'd otherwise skip because it's too time consuming and painful.

I've driven the bus for this thread kind of into the ditch, so I'll stop now.

What i have seen is that humans tend to do what is easiest. Modeling makes a lot of the really hard stuff way less work and a reasonable outcome is produced. It might also be a tad blinding tho. There are some killer sound audio circuits that look horrible as a model.

I try and do circuits/layouts that are simple enough, modeling is really not that important. Mostly then using my ears.

But yes, on stuff at RF frequencies, modeling is a huge important step. I have no idea how they used to get 1Ghz bandwidth systems without modeling. Looking at the Tek scope circuits is just stunning. These were seriously good engineers. Looking at spectrum analyzers from the era before modeling is just jaw dropping.. It has taught me that this stuff, even RF, can be done without modeling. BUT, at a huge cost in labor.

Well... Your fun :) I like running into competent engineers. Its fun to talk shop..
 
Your are a wizard level engineer :)

Modeling *can* be good. BUT. As I am sure you know, it can also be deceiving and like AI can hallucinate. Its hard to model ALL the parameters of everything. I donno, I guess i am just old and crazy, hahaha.. I have made my own audio gear of course, I am crazy enough that I LISTEN to the power supply lines and listen to various sections and spots in circuit. A poly cap and a attentuator and/or op=amp and I hook that to a balanced input on a audio rig and listen. This can be very insightful.



Amen...

The thing is, is it even possible to really model EVERYTHING..



What i have seen is that humans tend to do what is easiest. Modeling makes a lot of the really hard stuff way less work and a reasonable outcome is produced. It might also be a tad blinding tho. There are some killer sound audio circuits that look horrible as a model.

I try and do circuits/layouts that are simple enough, modeling is really not that important. Mostly then using my ears.

But yes, on stuff at RF frequencies, modeling is a huge important step. I have no idea how they used to get 1Ghz bandwidth systems without modeling. Looking at the Tek scope circuits is just stunning. These were seriously good engineers. Looking at spectrum analyzers from the era before modeling is just jaw dropping.. It has taught me that this stuff, even RF, can be done without modeling. BUT, at a huge cost in labor.

Well... Your fun :) I like running into competent engineers. Its fun to talk shop..
The engineers at Tek and HP were clearly brilliant people. Both companies had technology and the products at the center of their missions. The people who ran projects and teams were engineers with keen business minds. Technical expertise and execution ran those companies. You can tell that based simply on what the two companies published back at the time for consumption by their customers. Manuals, schematics, app notes, technical explanations, and so on. Lots of techie types still refer to these decades old publications.

Over time, that has switched to the companies being run by business people who may or may not have good technical backgrounds. That has often led to engineers being considered to fungible commodities in many cases and the technology is now a marketing driven thing.

I can't say which is better. (I know which one I liked better...) After all, the driving factor for companies now is primarily short term investor return and that's how they're run. Like everything else, things change.
 
Quick question…

Which interconnects (hdmi, Ethernet) do you use for your ATVX? Wireworld or AudioQuest?
 
This is a near impossible question to answer. I know for sure each system is different and what works in one does not work as well in others.

Currently.. With my weird 2ch setup in the lab,, Wireworld Platinum Electra 7 I think for a power cord.. My Ethernet cable really varies, from ones I make up myself to, well, a bunch of them.. I hear all sorts of things from clients. They all improve things, but, it seems its all system dependent..

Sorry I dont have a solid answer :(
 
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OK I have been having fun.... Its become obvious there is yet more to get from the ATVX..

So I have been using the same ATVX you guys have. I really cant improve the ATVX any more.. Its maxed out..

BUT... The power supply, well,, maybe.. I did design the ATVX to have upgrade paths if someone made a sensing power supply. So far no high end linear company is making a sensing supply even tho these are very common in commercial/industrial/scientific/OEM venues.

SO.. I swung back around to my vintage Lambda LCS-A-20 from the late 1970's that I restored. From a all time stand point I think the Lambda is the best linear ever made possibly. But these are all decayed now and need recapping and work. I spent time and just did stupid crazy stuff to it. Its VERY cool because it implements voltage regulation without a regulator IC. It uses a op-amp and discrete components. SO this is just a magnitude better then a IC based solution like ALL modern lpower supplies. IMHO, WAY less parts in the path.. So I used crazy parts like metal foil resistors, lab grade voltage reference and crazy caps of huge values.. It takes 90 seconds for a reference voltage cap to get to voltage. I used its core design and updated some parts with much better ones and made it way better in a number of ways.

So I am getting a insane 7 microvolts of RMS noise under 2A load, step response from 0 to 2A in the 100 nanosecond range with a total drop of 0.0002V. Long term drift of 0.0001V. Crazy specs for a power supply. These kinds of specs can only occur with a sensing supply. Its also stunningly low impeadance across a 0-1Mhz range, this is because of its op-amp design VS a VReg.

So I set it for 14.85Vdc and plugged the ATVX into it.. Total noise measured inside the ATVX on the board is 35microvolts RMS worse case. Streaming it sits at 21 microvolts.. It holds the regulation above.. Sensing is done inside the ATVX and this is the only way to achieve these specs. ANy sensing supply could be used if set to 14.1-14.9vdc,

SO.... Picture got better. Its a obvious change, but not huge.. BUT THE SOUND... OMG... HUGE jump..

REALLY surprizing.. Fun... Its crazy how good streaming from a HDMI box like this can sound.

Keep in mind I am using 2ch PCM, NOT ATmos.. I think Atmos sounds ****** VS PCM..

Also... I find that a 2" Ampex 456 makes for the best platform for it. It makes it sound more analog... Hahahaha...

IMG_0194.jpg
 
I also want to bring up again what can be a really good way to do this.

A lot of you have really good 2ch rigs.. Maybe a flat panel between the 2 ch..

Feeding the ATVX directly into the TV and taking the optical out of the TV to a high end DAC can produce just stunning results.. Set the ATVX to audio "change format" and set it to 2ch.. Wide, deep, detailed imaging. Layering all day. Detail. Musicality.. Playing music off a local UPnP server using VLC or other apps is just wow..

Its not a high end renderer, but, wowee it can sound way better then a ATV should sound..

Of course im sure this is related to the TV too and how well it turns HDMI into optical...
 
I also want to bring up again what can be a really good way to do this.

A lot of you have really good 2ch rigs.. Maybe a flat panel between the 2 ch..

Feeding the ATVX directly into the TV and taking the optical out of the TV to a high end DAC can produce just stunning results.. Set the ATVX to audio "change format" and set it to 2ch.. Wide, deep, detailed imaging. Layering all day. Detail. Musicality.. Playing music off a local UPnP server using VLC or other apps is just wow..

Its not a high end renderer, but, wowee it can sound way better then a ATV should sound..

Of course im sure this is related to the TV too and how well it turns HDMI into optical...
Would equally good sonic results be obtained by feeding the ATVX into an Oppo 203 via HDMI and coaxial digital out to a high end DAC? This is how I am currently running, albeit with a stock standard ATV (for now). I like having a single HDMI cable between the Oppo and my TV.

Is it necessary to “clean up” the ethernet feed into the ATVX for best results?
 
OK I have been having fun.... Its become obvious there is yet more to get from the ATVX..

So I have been using the same ATVX you guys have. I really cant improve the ATVX any more.. Its maxed out..

BUT... The power supply, well,, maybe.. I did design the ATVX to have upgrade paths if someone made a sensing power supply. So far no high end linear company is making a sensing supply even tho these are very common in commercial/industrial/scientific/OEM venues.

SO.. I swung back around to my vintage Lambda LCS-A-20 from the late 1970's that I restored. From a all time stand point I think the Lambda is the best linear ever made possibly. But these are all decayed now and need recapping and work. I spent time and just did stupid crazy stuff to it. Its VERY cool because it implements voltage regulation without a regulator IC. It uses a op-amp and discrete components. SO this is just a magnitude better then a IC based solution like ALL modern lpower supplies. IMHO, WAY less parts in the path.. So I used crazy parts like metal foil resistors, lab grade voltage reference and crazy caps of huge values.. It takes 90 seconds for a reference voltage cap to get to voltage. I used its core design and updated some parts with much better ones and made it way better in a number of ways.

So I am getting a insane 7 microvolts of RMS noise under 2A load, step response from 0 to 2A in the 100 nanosecond range with a total drop of 0.0002V. Long term drift of 0.0001V. Crazy specs for a power supply. These kinds of specs can only occur with a sensing supply. Its also stunningly low impeadance across a 0-1Mhz range, this is because of its op-amp design VS a VReg.

So I set it for 14.85Vdc and plugged the ATVX into it.. Total noise measured inside the ATVX on the board is 35microvolts RMS worse case. Streaming it sits at 21 microvolts.. It holds the regulation above.. Sensing is done inside the ATVX and this is the only way to achieve these specs. ANy sensing supply could be used if set to 14.1-14.9vdc,

SO.... Picture got better. Its a obvious change, but not huge.. BUT THE SOUND... OMG... HUGE jump..

REALLY surprizing.. Fun... Its crazy how good streaming from a HDMI box like this can sound.

Keep in mind I am using 2ch PCM, NOT ATmos.. I think Atmos sounds ****** VS PCM..

Also... I find that a 2" Ampex 456 makes for the best platform for it. It makes it sound more analog... Hahahaha...

View attachment 135228
OK I have been having fun.... Its become obvious there is yet more to get from the ATVX..

So I have been using the same ATVX you guys have. I really cant improve the ATVX any more.. Its maxed out..

BUT... The power supply, well,, maybe.. I did design the ATVX to have upgrade paths if someone made a sensing power supply. So far no high end linear company is making a sensing supply even tho these are very common in commercial/industrial/scientific/OEM venues.

SO.. I swung back around to my vintage Lambda LCS-A-20 from the late 1970's that I restored. From a all time stand point I think the Lambda is the best linear ever made possibly. But these are all decayed now and need recapping and work. I spent time and just did stupid crazy stuff to it. Its VERY cool because it implements voltage regulation without a regulator IC. It uses a op-amp and discrete components. SO this is just a magnitude better then a IC based solution like ALL modern lpower supplies. IMHO, WAY less parts in the path.. So I used crazy parts like metal foil resistors, lab grade voltage reference and crazy caps of huge values.. It takes 90 seconds for a reference voltage cap to get to voltage. I used its core design and updated some parts with much better ones and made it way better in a number of ways.

So I am getting a insane 7 microvolts of RMS noise under 2A load, step response from 0 to 2A in the 100 nanosecond range with a total drop of 0.0002V. Long term drift of 0.0001V. Crazy specs for a power supply. These kinds of specs can only occur with a sensing supply. Its also stunningly low impeadance across a 0-1Mhz range, this is because of its op-amp design VS a VReg.

So I set it for 14.85Vdc and plugged the ATVX into it.. Total noise measured inside the ATVX on the board is 35microvolts RMS worse case. Streaming it sits at 21 microvolts.. It holds the regulation above.. Sensing is done inside the ATVX and this is the only way to achieve these specs. ANy sensing supply could be used if set to 14.1-14.9vdc,

SO.... Picture got better. Its a obvious change, but not huge.. BUT THE SOUND... OMG... HUGE jump..

REALLY surprizing.. Fun... Its crazy how good streaming from a HDMI box like this can sound.

Keep in mind I am using 2ch PCM, NOT ATmos.. I think Atmos sounds ****** VS PCM..

Also... I find that a 2" Ampex 456 makes for the best platform for it. It makes it sound more analog... Hahahaha...

View attachment 135228
Have you looked at the LT3041? It'd fit nicely onto a PCB where the crummy olde AC-DC switcher in the ATV sits/sat. The data sheet explains all.

Full disclosures:

I am one of the DIY type guys you encouraged lo these many dozens of months ago. (You very generously sent me a connector replacement for one I messed up.) I do not have an ATVX with all the secret sauce ingredients that you've carefully integrated onto the main ATV processor board. So, I can't do a fair comparison with an ATVX.

But... I am using a regulator based on three LT3045's in parallel that is located just a couple inches outside my own ATV. Even though it's running at 12 VDC, not 14+, and the remote sensing is those couple of inches away, the results are really great. Still a work in progress. Getting there is part of the fun.
 
Would equally good sonic results be obtained by feeding the ATVX into an Oppo 203 via HDMI and coaxial digital out to a high end DAC? This is how I am currently running, albeit with a stock standard ATV (for now). I like having a single HDMI cable between the Oppo and my TV.

Is it necessary to “clean up” the ethernet feed into the ATVX for best results?

As many know here one of my setups, my reference setup, has had a insanely modded Oppo in the path.. I used that to pick off SPDIF to feed to my insanely levinson 40.

I should cover my current "reference" setup.

I have a number of systems I used for evaul. I use a super high end multichannel room with a SOny laser projector, I have a Sony A90K super handy and use these to check things out on system my clients might use. But I also have a hand crafted system I have modded insanely and made custom gear so I can truly have hopefully the best pic on earth and within limits the best sound. I use this system to do the engineering work and do A/B/C comparisons. I need a system where I can CLEARLY see and hear whats going on that is not affected by things like signal processing in a TV, lumigen / MadVR, or surround processor. I need to see/hear the signal coming from the ATVX very clearly without adulteration.

This pursuit to create a really crazy high end reference setup has taken years and a ton of reengineering and tons of mods to gear.

Along the way I discovered that all 4K display devices process the picture. They have to to do all sorts of things to the signal to display on a OLED system. Color gamut, gamma and a ton of math MUST be done. Video processing chips have really ramped up in the last 10 years. Its common now to run the signal thru just tons of math and algorithms. I used to think OLEDs were great. But my 1080 Panasonic plasma always seem to have a better picture. So I launched into a huge fun project to mod my plasma to truly extreme levels. It was a insane technical project and the result was jaw dropping. I have had a number of picture professionals over and we all are just jaw dropped. I have a carefully calibrated Sony A90K right next to it. A OLED is not even in the same galaxy. The digital processing in the Sony ( or any OLED ) just corrupts the picture in ways you cant recover.. I documented the Plasma project here. The downside has been that, as I mention in the thread, its a near military grade RF jammer on freq below 20 Mhz. It blocks all AM radio reception for about a block around me, haha, oops.. But this was why the technology was intentionally limited in engineering along with power consuption laws in the US. So it was illegal to make the best picture because of side effects.. The picture, while only 1080, is just drop dead better. Even random complete novice people go WOW.. The Panasonic when it was made really could not process the video much at all. So its a fairly unprocessed picture. YES plasma has issues, flicker and limited bit depth which can result in visible banding on some images. But the gains in other areas make those acceptable.

So with the plasma I can see difference in HDMI cables VERY visibly. I can see EVERYTHING. So this is exactly what i want.. OF COURSE I still need to look at things with a Sony 4K OLED, which i do. But the plasma is always a better view.

I have until today used my Oppo in line with the picture because it has just insanity amounts of mods. Rubidium cloks, months worth of engineering and mods. Even tons of work on the transport electronics - all the servos.. Linear supplies. The HDMI and video chip got tons of the same stuff I do to the ATV. I put the ATVX into the rear input and hook the Plasma to the output. I get SPDIF out for 2ch PCM fed to the Levinson 40.

BUT after the plasma mods, I never did a AB with and without in line. Now I have..

The ATVX looks best hooked directly. This used to not be true. But I modded the Plasma HDMI/CPU board to a extreme level.

But that was not what caught my attention it was a HUGE jump in sound. The speakers dissapeared completly, a huge wide 3D image appeared with wonderful layering and detail. Super musical. It was a shock.. But I was using the optical from the Plasma to the 40..

Hmmmmm..... I spent hours yesterday playing music. Playing stuff of my local NAS and doing Tidal off the ATVX. Honestly it was shocking what I was getting.. It sounded like a $50k DAC.. How in the **** could this be ??

Well.. I modded the plasma CPU board. This takes the HDMI and picks out the 2ch PCM and sends it out a optical jack. WELL I obviously cleaned this up so much it was insane. I used a crazy clock on that board, I did crazy with on the power supplies and cleaned up the various data busses. So this HDMI / Optical set of processing ramped up to esoteric audio level..

So it makes sense what i am hearing. I removed a whole device, the Oppo, and upped the quality of the HDMI > Optical in the TV.

I should explain the Levinson 40. Its not normal. I have a thread about some of the mods to that. I ended up doing a bunch more I did not cover there. But the basics are here I have found that Atmos kinda sucks. Its just too much math. Object surround is just too much math. Kinda like Dolby A/C, sure it solves a problem, but, introcues other issues.. So I like using the ATVX in 2ch mode and judging sound quality using that mode. Atmos will follow if the PCM is awesome.

SO..... This is a new change which is awesome. My lab referebnce system jumped up in quality. My engineering test equipmenty got even better.

So I also am now playing with power supplies. My linear is great that comes with the ATVX, but, can things be even better ? Well, the completly bespoke and not repeatable Lambda linear does indeed make a ATVX look and SOUND better. The sound is a big jump. It has brought up that the ATVX can perform even better, amazingly.. I will play around with this.. Its a interesting new find.. I am also open to linear companies also supplying a linear that can be used with it. While its possible to use a normal 12V linear without sensing, that wont be better. But all these linear companies in audio could easliy add sensing and do 14.15VDC.. So I am very willing to talk to any company making linears to drive the ATVX. The magic is inside the ATVX, the linear is pretty easy, it just adds remote sensing and uses a r-core transformer.

SO I am gonna go play more with my new level of system. One thing for sure, the stock ATVX with the normal linear is producing a lot better pic/sound then you think. Its limited by the TV and sound processor.

SO.. WHY does a Lumigen / MadVR look better with a ATVX ? Well I think these help overcome the limitations of the display device. So that could well be the best for a system.

I do get i am talking about a 100% unique system that is completyly impractial for normal systems. BUT. Its worth trying a ATVX diretly into a display and optical out to a high end DAC and setting the ATVX to 2ch..
 
Have you looked at the LT3041? It'd fit nicely onto a PCB where the crummy olde AC-DC switcher in the ATV sits/sat. The data sheet explains all.

Full disclosures:

I am one of the DIY type guys you encouraged lo these many dozens of months ago. (You very generously sent me a connector replacement for one I messed up.) I do not have an ATVX with all the secret sauce ingredients that you've carefully integrated onto the main ATV processor board. So, I can't do a fair comparison with an ATVX.

But... I am using a regulator based on three LT3045's in parallel that is located just a couple inches outside my own ATV. Even though it's running at 12 VDC, not 14+, and the remote sensing is those couple of inches away, the results are really great. Still a work in progress. Getting there is part of the fun.

Ohhh... Yes I remember sending those !.. I did wonder, hahaha...

Yes the results are interesting huh ?? That was the rabbit hole for me..

I do sorta differential sensing, so + and -. Like balanced kinda in simple terms. The chip seems to do just the + side ? But maybe 2 of those could be used ? OR < HAHAHA,, Differential is not needed.. haha..

Its amazing how messy that supply is current wise hu ? The high freq current spectra, the low freq rumble from the CPU.. There is a lot of variation in current sec by sec..

Yes,,, feed the PWN regulator current spectra. It REALLY matters..

Have you niticed the noise spectrum varies with current load ? It IS a PWM regulator after all :)

14V is better. Its a better PWM on the board..
 
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Have you looked at the LT3041? It'd fit nicely onto a PCB where the crummy olde AC-DC switcher in the ATV sits/sat. The data sheet explains all.

Go old school... LM723 in a can. it has low output impeadance up to 1Mhz, its whole sense +- error amp works up to 1Mhz.. It has few parts internally, nice and clean..
:)



Gotta love such a simple DIE..

1724342725695.jpeg
 
Last edited:
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Go old school... LM723 in a can. it has low output impeadance up to 1Mhz, its whole sense +- error amp works up to 1Mhz.. It has few parts internally, nice and clean..
:)



Gotta love such a simple DIE..

View attachment 135256
I've tried the '723. Not quite as good as the newer LT devices.

The LT series devices are actually differential in sensing, just not explicitly obviously. It's a matter of where and how you physically connect some of the pins. There's more on this in the LT3045 evaluation board manual: LT3045 Eval Board

I've been using some LiFePO4 batteries to supply the raw DC. You can't get much more DC than a battery. This eliminates any common mode path through the AC mains, which often is a real source of low level crap affecting the audio performance. But, in a lot of ways this is a PITA, so I'm slowly trying to work through a properly isolated for common mode signal, AC powered raw DC supply.

Whitlock on Common Mode Signals - you can break the loops anywhere; you don't need an audio transformer.

BTW, a consideration with series regulators like the 723 and the LT's has to do with the supply current loop. Follow the current, sorta like what that Deep Throat guy said in the Watergate movie. Shunt regulators are far better in controlling the current loops, but they have practical problems with them. So, you have to play with the engineering trade-offs.

Like with computers - which is what an ATV really is - the switching regulators' noise spectrum changes with current demand and input voltage. I'm certain that there is an optimum supply voltage that puts whatever junk in a frequency band that does less damage to the signals we care about. It could be that the best voltage for video isn't the same as for audio.

The whole subject of what you're trying to do is sorta funny, but not in a haha way. Here's what I mean. The first time I ever got to look at the Ikegami monitors in a TV studio control room, I was shocked. Even though it was standard definition analog TV, the resolution and colors were very real. Unfortunately, each part of the rest of path to the home pretty much sucked. I remember looking at the spectrum at the output of the transmitter. It was dreadful. The highest frequency color burst was maybe 2/3 amplitude. That was due to the effect of the diplex filter used to combine the audio transmitter signal with the video transmitter signal for sending up the feed line. So, even the designed to a low price TV sets at home didn't have a lot to work with. Now, ATSC is pretty great but who watches that? Instead we have digital systems that are all about the math, as you say. You pretty much can't even go to a movie house that uses analog anything any longer. When I was a college student we used to like to go to the late matinees at one of the local movie houses where they showed Marx Brothers movies for 99 cents. For a double feature. The picture quality was better there and then than it is now. So, my point is that you're making a very noble effort to chase something that is really elusive. That you've gotten as far as you have is really amazing. Maybe almost to the days of the Ikegami monitor in the studio.

I've already wrecked this thread for people who just want to watch really high quality TV, so I'll stop here!
 
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sorta like what that Deep Throat guy said in the Watergate movie.

Hahaha... Awesome.. And exactly the truth..

I'm certain that there is an optimum supply voltage that puts whatever junk in a frequency band that does less damage to the signals we care about. I

yepper.. The WHOLE thing from power source thru regulation, thru chips and output is all one big tuned system and landing it spot on and getting those microamps of HDMI current right is a big tuned system.

Its fun stuff..

Yes right at the start I was playing with batteries. I have always loved batteries. Way back in my youth I used a 10 foot wide 4 foot tall dual stack deep of Gates lead Acid BC cells to create +-90VDC for a audio amp. Huge multiple layers of copper/silver 2" braid connecting them so a huge bank of mil-spec matched transistors for the output stage. Each amp, preamp and phono amp had its own small battery stages to make for isolated current loops. I was even crazy enough then to play with Thompson-Joule thermoelectric cooling for the phono pre and per amp stages. Nothing like lowering noise with super cooling :) That whole rig was really fun but dangerous arc-flash stuff without fuses or breakers and the cooling required too much current and generated too much heat. I even had TRW make me a custom hybrid circuit on cermic for the phono pre.. That was really fun. But that was in my youth, 1982.. I did learn a lot about noise and materials with that project tho. Things like weld, never solder because of dissimilar metal crystal structure and electron flow. I used the tiny torches used for jewlery. Tricky work. I learned abut layout symmetry

I did TDR for whole circuits and did alignment that way. I was lucky back then, I sold test equipment to military and scientific industrys so I could borrow the best stuff in the world for my own home projects.

It could be that the best voltage for video isn't the same as for audio.

That is EXACTLY what I found. Its a trade off and picking the right number is way more interesting then you think. In fact, maybe a even more complex relationship exists where specific current draw for some operations of the CPU produces the right freq for video and some for audio. So maybe a variation in voltage fed to a PWM regulator is best :) PWM regulators are a interestingly complex gate keep for electrons trying to get where they are needed. Incredibly complex very non-linear math is involved in the noise and current spectra. Those PWM gates letting juice thru, these are the gatekeepers.

I am fond of a TL431. A very old device that is quite strange and analogy.

Now, ATSC is pretty great but who watches that?

Yes it is actually.. I should huh ? My plasma does have a tuner.. Hmm.. Good point.. What does ATSC look like on a modded platform ?
I've already wrecked this thread for people who just want to watch really high quality TV, so I'll stop here!

Oh idonno.. A lot of lurkers read these pages. Only a tiny percentage post. What we are discussing is interesting to lots of people watching this thread. I know for sure there are some high end engineers in these fields watching this thread. I have a LOT of these units shipped and a bunch have gone to very interesting people and places. There is SMPTE interest for example. HDMI steering comitte people who I have demoed. AV press people. Tektronix played with with ATVX. 2 units are at well known post houses. From a HDMI stand point this is all very interesting.. So our deep technical discussion does get read by people who are like us in technical depth. Plus these discussions will stay here forever for engineers later to find. My orginal hope for this product was to stir things up and get engineers to look at HDMI and stuff MUCH more closely. So these discussing hopefully further that goal.

Its good stuff.. I admit, hehehe,, discussion on which VReg is best is a topic best done on eevblog tho, hahaha..

Well SOMEONE whould make a high end linear that has senseing and works to cancle noise out to like 1Mhz. ANY maybe also has a input for a DC batt :) Making a whole product from scratch is a LOT of work and I am getting to old for that kinda thing, hahaha.. All that CAD and case making and all that inventory and stuff..

So, my point is that you're making a very noble effort to chase something that is really elusive. That you've gotten as far as you have is really amazing. Maybe almost to the days of the Ikegami monitor in the studio.

Thank you :) Its been a really fun project... I have always done that.. Like the CRT Proj I did or the AV rooms I made. Just kinda crazy and passionate. I look at this as my art. My paints are the parts and materials.

I've tried the '723. Not quite as good as the newer LT devices.

I donno tho... I like the short path and simple layout of the 723 die. I can get pretty insane performance from it. I do see your point of course, but I can get a 723 in a can. The can can be grounded and is a shield, plus the can can be slightly heated for thermal stability :) I DO have respect for SMD if done right, I like a shorter path for EVERYTHING less metal in the path for the electrons to go thru the better in my mind. So SMD offers a much shorter TDR. I do think in terms of time domain and all the paths are reflections.

THE most difficult thingh i ever made was my siesmometer amp. I made my own. OMFG.. freq like uHZ and 1,000,000:1 gain.. The 1/f noise is a ultimate limit.. Even metal foil resistors drift.. HARD Chopper instrumentation op-amps.. Just crazy stuff..


Maybe almost to the days of the Ikegami monitor in the studio.

My first experence with high end video was a Sony BVM in a telecine suite. This was stunning.. I then modded the CRT projector and equipped it with a HD-SDI input card and fed it from a Teranex for upconversion.

My real reference tho is good 70mm film on a 120" wide screen with a good lens.. My picture reference is still a really good print of Baraka on 70mm. This was so far past any electronic means of reproduction, I dont think we will ever get there.

But yes,,, your right,,, post is all now AES67. BUT, I have a ethernet switch for that :) hahaha.. That *SOMEHOW* makes a difference. DO NOT ASK ME TO EXPLAIN HOW..

What I want to know,,, but its OK to decline to say,,, is what do you do as your main work ? Your clearly not a normal engineer, hahaha.. Its OK to decline to answer, I respect that.
 
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Hahaha... Awesome.. And exactly the truth..



yepper.. The WHOLE thing from power source thru regulation, thru chips and output is all one big tuned system and landing it spot on and getting those microamps of HDMI current right is a big tuned system.

Its fun stuff..

Yes right at the start I was playing with batteries. I have always loved batteries. Way back in my youth I used a 10 foot wide 4 foot tall dual stack deep of Gates lead Acid BC cells to create +-90VDC for a audio amp. Huge multiple layers of copper/silver 2" braid connecting them so a huge bank of mil-spec matched transistors for the output stage. Each amp, preamp and phono amp had its own small battery stages to make for isolated current loops. I was even crazy enough then to play with Thompson-Joule thermoelectric cooling for the phono pre and per amp stages. Nothing like lowering noise with super cooling :) That whole rig was really fun but dangerous arc-flash stuff without fuses or breakers and the cooling required too much current and generated too much heat. I even had TRW make me a custom hybrid circuit on cermic for the phono pre.. That was really fun. But that was in my youth, 1982.. I did learn a lot about noise and materials with that project tho. Things like weld, never solder because of dissimilar metal crystal structure and electron flow. I used the tiny torches used for jewlery. Tricky work. I learned abut layout symmetry

I did TDR for whole circuits and did alignment that way. I was lucky back then, I sold test equipment to military and scientific industrys so I could borrow the best stuff in the world for my own home projects.



That is EXACTLY what I found. Its a trade off and picking the right number is way more interesting then you think. In fact, maybe a even more complex relationship exists where specific current draw for some operations of the CPU produces the right freq for video and some for audio. So maybe a variation in voltage fed to a PWM regulator is best :) PWM regulators are a interestingly complex gate keep for electrons trying to get where they are needed. Incredibly complex very non-linear math is involved in the noise and current spectra. Those PWM gates letting juice thru, these are the gatekeepers.

I am fond of a TL431. A very old device that is quite strange and analogy.



Yes it is actually.. I should huh ? My plasma does have a tuner.. Hmm.. Good point.. What does ATSC look like on a modded platform ?


Oh idonno.. A lot of lurkers read these pages. Only a tiny percentage post. What we are discussing is interesting to lots of people watching this thread. I know for sure there are some high end engineers in these fields watching this thread. I have a LOT of these units shipped and a bunch have gone to very interesting people and places. There is SMPTE interest for example. HDMI steering comitte people who I have demoed. AV press people. Tektronix played with with ATVX. 2 units are at well known post houses. From a HDMI stand point this is all very interesting.. So our deep technical discussion does get read by people who are like us in technical depth. Plus these discussions will stay here forever for engineers later to find. My orginal hope for this product was to stir things up and get engineers to look at HDMI and stuff MUCH more closely. So these discussing hopefully further that goal.

Its good stuff.. I admit, hehehe,, discussion on which VReg is best is a topic best done on eevblog tho, hahaha..

Well SOMEONE whould make a high end linear that has senseing and works to cancle noise out to like 1Mhz. ANY maybe also has a input for a DC batt :) Making a whole product from scratch is a LOT of work and I am getting to old for that kinda thing, hahaha.. All that CAD and case making and all that inventory and stuff..



Thank you :) Its been a really fun project... I have always done that.. Like the CRT Proj I did or the AV rooms I made. Just kinda crazy and passionate. I look at this as my art. My paints are the parts and materials.



I donno tho... I like the short path and simple layout of the 723 die. I can get pretty insane performance from it. I do see your point of course, but I can get a 723 in a can. The can can be grounded and is a shield, plus the can can be slightly heated for thermal stability :) I DO have respect for SMD if done right, I like a shorter path for EVERYTHING less metal in the path for the electrons to go thru the better in my mind. So SMD offers a much shorter TDR. I do think in terms of time domain and all the paths are reflections.

THE most difficult thingh i ever made was my siesmometer amp. I made my own. OMFG.. freq like uHZ and 1,000,000:1 gain.. The 1/f noise is a ultimate limit.. Even metal foil resistors drift.. HARD Chopper instrumentation op-amps.. Just crazy stuff..




My first experence with high end video was a Sony BVM in a telecine suite. This was stunning.. I then modded the CRT projector and equipped it with a HD-SDI input card and fed it from a Teranex for upconversion.

My real reference tho is good 70mm film on a 120" wide screen with a good lens.. My picture reference is still a really good print of Baraka on 70mm. This was so far past any electronic means of reproduction, I dont think we will ever get there.

But yes,,, your right,,, post is all now AES67. BUT, I have a ethernet switch for that :) hahaha.. That *SOMEHOW* makes a difference. DO NOT ASK ME TO EXPLAIN HOW..

What I want to know,,, but its OK to decline to say,,, is what do you do as your main work ? Your clearly not a normal engineer, hahaha.. Its OK to decline to answer, I respect that.
I think you may have looked up my resume on LinkedIn previously. My background is engineering physics. Or, applied physics. That's based on who is doing the addressing. What that really means is that I was better at lab work than theory and preferred the lab work. In my case, it was electronics, primarily communications systems. That sounds fancy, but, believe me, it isn't.

But, these days I am retired. So, my main work now is taking the dogs out for dog adventures, doing whatever assignments my wife provides, and sneaking in some of these projects I didn't have time for previously.

BTW, I never claimed to be normal.
 
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I think you may have looked up my resume on LinkedIn previously. My background is engineering physics. Or, applied physics. That's based on who is doing the addressing. What that really means is that I was better at lab work than theory and preferred the lab work. In my case, it was electronics, primarily communications systems. That sounds fancy, but, believe me, it isn't.

But, these days I am retired. So, my main work now is taking the dogs out for dog adventures, doing whatever assignments my wife provides, and sneaking in some of these projects I didn't have time for previously.

BTW, I never claimed to be normal.


OH YEA... OMG.. I forgot,,, yes your a super impressive, best in the world in your domain, engineer with amazing mad skillz who created new limits of science for electronics ! Ahhh yes... You live and breathe materials science.. This all makes sense now.. Well,,, you sure understand low noise electronics !!! hahahaha... I am gonna go find that email and read up on your amazing science again.

Well I am glad you have enjoyed playing with the HDMI streaming stuff.. Visual perceptual science is not complete so its fun to play with this stuff and go where no one thought to go before :)

Well you sure followed when I discussed 1/f noise and using a thompson-joul cooler, hahaha..

I still think that the LM723 in a can is fun. So there. Hahahaha...

So do you see background radiation and cosmic ray stuff in your super cool low noise circuits ? Once I dropped temps I was seeing random and at times bursty noise I could not trace down. I have always suspected it was enviromental. Shot noise tho was also a issue. Thats REALLY off topic.. I am surprized no one in audio has super cooled stuff yet..

Lets drop a ATV into liquid N. Oh wait, CRACK,,, oopsie... hahaha.. But for 1/2 sec it was REALLy CLEAR... I broke my first hybrid ceramic chip that cost me a fortune for a phono pre that Analog Devices made me back in the day. . It was fine going down in temp in its evacuated little container on the cooler, but I broke it when it came back up in temp. Expensive mistake. TRW took the AD dice and made my second one. They were better at that sort of thing. They did question my sanity for specing silver wire from hybrid chip to the dice.. Well,,, they questioned my sanity doing this for a phono preamp. Hahahaha.. That was fun..

Nothing like lower temps to lower noise...

Great to talk shop with someone who knows this stuff.. You have me wanting to cool a ATVX. hahaha.. I wonder what would happen if I I dropped one in liquid N. Hmmm... hahahahaha... Of course all its voltages would go wacky and who knows what all would go wrong.
 
I have a interesting observation...

The new TVos firmware is drawing more power when streaming. It used to avg 160ma with TV0s 17 and back.. Now with TVos 18 its drawing 190-210ma.. Its doing more now in 18.. It also seems to be HDMI/video related because on scenes with no motion, its 190 but with motion and motion test patterns it draws up to 215ma.

So they may have reworked some of the video processing to maybe incorporate new features, or maybe new drivers for the HDMI or something.

So the better pic from TVos 18 might result from some actual changes to how the ATV renders video.

I am on Dev Beta 22J5353a and it still looks good..

I have identified a clear issue tho. Lip sync can get WAY off. Like seconds. This persists for any app. It slowly creeps up. The sound lags the pic.. This is true with a surround processor or direct TV connection.. Restart of TV/Proc does not fix it. The only way to fix it is a ATV restart. It does not always happen. I also run my ATVX in the lap 24/7 and this extended use might expose the issue. Sometimes it does not seem to do it at all, even over weeks.. So I am unsure where it comes from, but, TVos 17 did not do this and the early 18's did not seem to either.

Overall, I am all for updating to 18 for everyone once it ships. The pic is a clear upgrade.

Sadly, it looks like BKDad has left WBF. I did converse via email and we will stay in touch, but, he left here. Which is too bad as he was really a impressive engineer and a serious DIY guy with lots of high end gear. He was also new to WBF. I am sad to see him leave. It was great fun for me to talk serious materials science and engineering with someone who has a LONG list of patents in those areas.

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Well.. I think thats it.. Apple may be out of the AppleTV buis. There is no mass market for stand alone streamers. TVs come with AppleTV+ and all the apps. The mass market is still shifting to mobile devices, which also has AppleTV+.

This is why the last one was such a cost cutting measure.

Even if they do come up with a newer one, it will not be the quality of the A2169.

The A2169, as I expected from the start, is going to go down as the best ATV Apple ever made and the best stand alone streaming box.

While I can still buy these new for modding, new in a box is becoming more expensive and harder to find. My buis plan from day one was to eventually shift to doing refurb + mods + warranty. This now looks like its realistic as new sealed using are getting harder to find. I do intend to keep making modded units even once I have to switch to refurb.

But now is the time to get a ATVX which is from a new sealed ATV.

 

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