AppleTV X - I am playing with something new

[Xymox]

Well I think its official..

Apple is not going to make any new AppleTVs. Today was the 3rd event that did not announce anything AppleTV related. The last one they released was a dramatic cost/quality reduction with no new important features.

The market for stand alone streamers for AV use has nearly vanished from the mass market. TVs/phones come with streaming apps and AppleTV+. The only people buying these devices now are people like us, high end AV guys with serious dedicated systems. So I think its pretty official now, Apple has left this market. On top of this, the A2169 AppleTV has everything needed already 4K/HDR/DV/Atmos/21:9, they can just update firmware. The new TVos 18 is awesome and has lots of new features. Because of the quality of the A2169 and all the mods I do, I think the ATVX is now the best AV streamer. Its also Apple, so unlike any other streaming device, it is the only streamer with Apple quality and its really feature rich VS all other streaming platforms.

When I started making these I knew Apple was gonna leave the market and that the A2169 was going to be the best unit and eventually sought after once production stopped. Much like a Oppo BluRay player. The ATVX is the best way to stream AV and as Apple is never going to make another stand alone ATV. I have shipped close to 400 ATVX systems so far. So far, every client LOVED it and now can't live without it.

As I expected. The 'new in box factory sealed' base units I start with are now nearly gone. They have also been getting much more expensive. Its now clear that brand new units are going to become impossible to find. I have always planned to transistion to buying used units and doing refurb, mods and a new warranty. Much like how things work buying a Oppo.

My reason to post is that if you want a brand new fact sealed unit, now is the time to get a order in. Contact me or my distributor. https://dejitterit.com/

I will continue to do fact new units as long as I can, but, buying them could become expensive which would raise the price of a ATVX. Refurbished units will always be available forever, but, they will have some scuffs and not perfect. Again I will warranty them tho. Regretfully they wont be less expensive, its actually more labor as I need to clean them up and do a bunch of testing and refurb.

So soon I wont have brand new ATVs. Its now or never. hehehehe.. I have had a lot of people ask me to let them know when new ones were getting scarce, they are getting scarce.

********************************

TVos 18 is out. If you have a ATVX, update your firmware. It brings a better pic + lots of new features. I have been running the Developer Beta for months. Its a great upgrade. It also brings tons of features no other streaming platform has. https://www.apple.com/newsroom/2024...ate-entertainment-and-bring-more-convenience/

********************************

 

[Superdad]

So I think its pretty official now, Apple has left this market.

Chris, there will be a 4th Gen AppleTV in 2025. Apple is NOT going to leave this market.

 

[dminches]

Chris, there will be a 4th Gen AppleTV in 2025. Apple is NOT going to leave this market.

What's your source for this? Nothing I have read from the usual reports is definitive, just speculation.

 

[Xymox]

Chris, there will be a 4th Gen AppleTV in 2025. Apple is NOT going to leave this market.

Why ?

There is no market. TVs come with all the apps that include AppleTV+. Mobile devices all have all the apps.

What would it have new ? AI ? hahaha.. Over hype.. 8K ? NO streaming service will do that. Well, even if they did they would not double the bitrate as that is the big cost for them and it would not draw significant users to justify it.

The only market left are people with dedicated systems that have a surround processor.

Even if they did come out with a new one, they are not going to make it MORE expensive then the 3rd gen 4k - which is terrible for our use.

They will of course stop making the CPU chip, like they do every year. So they may indeed need to replace the cheap 3rd gen they have now, with a cheaper one. ALl the focus in rumors have been on a lower price ( quality )..

I just dont see it..

 

[Superdad]

What's your source for this? Nothing I have read from the usual reports is definitive, just speculation.

You are right--just all the usual Apple rumor sites. But I don't think Apply is ready to abandon the living room market. They have plans to do more in it--whether we want them to or not.

 

[Xymox]

You are right--just all the usual Apple rumor sites. But I don't think Apply is ready to abandon the living room market. They have plans to do more in it--whether we want them to or not.

Well they tried automation complete with siri integration. They tried gaming. It was supposed to be a hub. None of that really worked out because people use their phones to do these things.

I think Apple likes owning each human individually with the phone and watch. Everybody in the living room has a phone on them or handy. These devices are already in hand and are collecting a lot of info for Apple and can do even more then the AppleTV. Most TVs can connect to the phones too so the phone can become the hub. A better hub then a ATV.

Newer generations are cutting cords. They rarely watch a TV. CEDIA shows new dedicated media rooms are no longer a hot item. Sales of things like mass market surround processors and projectors are continuing to decline. For entertainment people are going to mobile devices more each year. The area where use outside the phone has seen a big jump is in cars. But these are also phone based.

Even high end rooms like ours are not being adopted by younger generations like they used to. Back in the 70's-80's young people HAD to have the coolest stereo rig, these days its the coolest phone or gaming computer.

So overall the market for a stand alone streaming box is far more niche then it was just 5 years ago and its declining. Apple knows this.

I am not sure what Apple could do to get young people off phones and back into the living room. The mass market people out there are great with the apps in the TV. I am not sure any value added features a ATV could bring over the phones/watches in people hands in the living room could bring enough revenue to Apple to justify a new more expensive higher quality box then the last one they produced after a big cost cutting reenginering phase.

They WILL of course stop making the chip in the current ATV. This has always forced a new model. So it IS possible they might make a new ATV simply to stay in the market, but, im not sure the mass market justifies it tho. BUT there is NO way they are going to reverse corse and make a ATV as good, or better, then the A2169. What they are doing is making it cheaper. I dont see that reversing course.

Even if they do, what features would be needed that we dont have or can't be done with firmware ? Maybe AI ? Well,, the hype there is insane.

I think the A2169 is like the Oppo UDP-205, it was the last really high quality BluRay and then was gone from the market.. These now trade on ebay for 3-5 TIMES the MSRP and have whole worlds of mods and refurb. https://www.ebay.com/sch/i.html?_from=R40&_trksid=p4432023.m570.l1313&_nkw=udp-205&_sacat=0 This is what I think will happen with the A2169. I will eventually transistion into refurb when i cant get new ones any more.

Of course,,, this is all just IMHO... Just speculation.. hehehe..

If only we had a Crystal Ball.. This song, unknown to young ones, kinda sums things up for our generation on many subjects.. Our world is changing. Many things of the past are better, like the music. We may look back on the A2169 like we do the Oppo. Like the Mini Moog in song - newer is seldom better.

 

[Xymox]

WELLLLL........

There is a issue...

Demand in the last day from all of you and from others I also told this along with a email blast to people and posting on Stereonet has completely depleted inventory of ATVX in one day. Both my dist and my own.. I need to build more.. That was the biggest set of orders ever..

VERY Regretfully there is now a 2-3 week backlog This SUX for me as I have always prided myself as having inventory on the shelf ready to ship immd.. I did not anticipate this big a demand.. My bad... Im sorry for that..

I will have Bill handle the backlog and keep everybody informed..

If you want one, best to get in the queue now. This could be like the last days of the Oppo. This kinda produced a bit of panic buying. Oops. I thought I had pretty much saturated the market of people who could use one. After nearly 400 sold, i figured I had satisfied demand.

 

[Joe Whip]

The Oppo is great but the new Magnatar players are wonderful too. Love my A2169. Better picture and sound to the current generation.

 

[dminches]

2-3 weeks in audiophile land is a blink of an eye.

 

[Xymox]

2-3 weeks in audiophile land is a blink of an eye.

Yes I know.. But for the last 2 years I have had a big focus on always having stock and the client would have one in hand in days.. It has been a important aspect for me.

I was just stupid here and should have stocked up ahead of the post i did. I watched the Apple event and then posted without thinking thru what would happen.. oopsie..

 

[Xymox]

The Oppo is great but the new Magnatar players are wonderful too. Love my A2169. Better picture and sound to the current generation.

I have this Oppo I spent years modding. Its crazy. Rubidium clock. So many part changes I bet i swapped out 50% of the total parts and then added in tons more. It was a hobby to just mod it for years. I would be bored and do some new mod. That went on weekly for years.

That Magnatar is interesting. It uses the same part number bluray transport assembly as the oppo did. I did not think they made those assemblies any more.

More power to those guys.. Gotta love the passion we have in this industry for perfection. So while with the right transfers I can get better performance from my Oppo, the ATVX is so close and mayny times better, I dont bother with my Oppo. Plus I fear physical medium is dead - very sadly..

I still have a highly modded Laser Disc player + Snell & Wilcox TBS185 + Teranex 6U > HDSDI to HDMI AJA.. I fire that up more then the Oppo because its just so cool.. I also have my modded CRT proj too.

But it is time to move on from physical media except for vintage reasons. I can play post production files at 700Mbps on the ATVX. So its WAY beyond a BluRay disc in capabilities. A normal 20-40 Mbps stream turns out to be really good as long as its a good transfer and good compression..

 

[Xymox]

VERY interesting reading this month in the SMPTE journal.. The whole issue is dedicated to how humans are perceiving the end result of all this imageing tech over the last 10 years. It turns out, there is a lot we dont know yet about how humans perceive pictures and our current science is lacking. Its a very interesting set of papers and articals..

I know some SMPTE guys and they have been exposed to a AB of a stock ATV and my modded ATVX.. In a blind AB everyone could pick out the ATVX as better. I started doing this with people 3 years ago.. I also did this with other key industry people. I am glad to see this finally getting some traction.

 

[eldogo]

I hope no one will take offense to this, but has someone compared the ATVX with CineMike’s ATV?

 

[dminches]

I hope no one will take offense to this, but has someone compared the ATVX with CineMike’s ATV?

You should start a separate thread since this is the ATVX thread.

 

[eldogo]

You should start a separate thread since this is the ATVX thread.

Cool, Makes sense.

 

[Xymox]

I hope no one will take offense to this, but has someone compared the ATVX with CineMike’s ATV?

Yes.. I own one. Well.. I had a client who bought a ATVX and ABed the 2 and then gave me his and kept the ATVX.. Very limited mods. Not even a linear. There are no measurements of what he did that I see any place. Looking at it, it seemed really basic to me. I would really want a linear myself.. It looks like just a clock mod.

Just me,, but,, for me the power supply Apple uses is THE big issue. A lot of DIY guys have done thier own by doing a linear and this make a huge difference. So. I donno. I would want a linear..

BUT that is just me..

I thought there might be a V2 tho ? I heard that, but, I cant seem to find it.

Its a lot less money.. So it is really a different device.

I was hoping that there might be some used ATVXs people would sell and that could get them into more hands at a lesser price. But that has not happened. Everybody just holds on the ATVXs. I would think some people might downsize a system or something and a ATVX might need to get sold. There is one person recently who asked if I knew anyone who wanted one that was lightly used for $1700. But he is the only one I have heard of.

 

[Xymox]

HDMI cables..

So I accidentally stumbled into doing some HDMI cable ABs today.. It was very interesting..

I had not done HDMI cable ABs since i modded the Plasma to produce a picture that went to 11 and then 12.. Its also been burning in and is just eye popping. The Sony A90K looks terrible side by side.

So I was making ATVs today and part of my process when i make them is after the main board and I soled up the cap network I power test with the sensing supply. But I do this with a supply on my bench and its all hooked to test equip where I measure each and every ATVX for things like noise, noise spectra and stuff. I have everything setup in a test jig, so I just plug in the ATVX with the test equip on and I get all the measurements in one pop. But I also hook up HDMI and Ethernet so I can test all that and measure the system doing actual streaming. I use a specific clip, the trailer for Avatar the wya of water. No reason for that clip. It is just fairly useful and I know it. This is all hooked to the plasma.

The bench has a 3M Amazon basic HDMI. I am not looking at quality at this stage, I just need a picture to stream so I can measure. BUT. I do look at the picture. I also update firmware at this stage..

I have been watching my own ATVX I have a lot recently.

Today when making ATVXs I had pause.. I went "hold on, that pic looks dark".. Everythign measured perfectly. I did a direct AB with my unit on the other input ( same settings ).. The test bench ATVX was clearly dark.. Like I wanted to turn up the brightness level quite a bit.. I was confuzed.. I decided to hook it to a short Wire World cable to the TV.. Perfect.. The quite obvious darkness was GONE. I went back to the 3M Amazon Basics and there again the picture was really kinda dramatically dark with blacks missing at the bottom. Also colors were too hot, like brightness was dropped and color stayed the same skewing it.

So I did a bunch of AB..

This was not in any way subtle. This was in your face. The plasma had made these difference far more obvious. I could see them on the Sony, but the Plasma REALLY made it clear..

I went thru every HDMI cable I had. I had Audioquest cables, Wireworld cables, Bluejeans cables..

This brightness thing, almost like gamma changes, was apperent on everything. Lenght seemed to matter. BUT not like you would think. SHorter might not be best..

The issue was not just subjective..

Cable changes made differences in where banding occured.. So doing a smooth brightness transistion and looking at where the TV would step to each level of brightness CHANGED WITh THE CABLE.. SO no way this is subjective. Something is very clearly changing the values of pixels based on different cables. This would seem to be concealment implimented on a chip level. Something is changing in the HDMI signal and HDMI "error correction" is varying in degrees with concealment.

SO.. HDMI cables REALLY matter.. The crazy clear Panasonic plasma made these differences REALLY obvious. I could also see them on the Sony, but not as dramatically.

I still can't say one cable, or lenght, is best.. BUT I can sure tell you that the HDMI cablle REALLY matters.. AND its not just subjective.

Sound also varied with each cable. BUT in a very different way. So be aware as you try out different HDMI cables to look AND listen as they BOTH change and sound might be best with one and pic might be better with another..

So if you have not played with HDMI cables, you should.

 

[Xymox]

I make systems for 240V worldwide use. I have 120 and 240 on the bench for testing. I also noticed today that a 240V unit might look better then a 120V unit. I did a direct AB and it did seem the 240V was slightly better. If you happen to have 240V in your room along with 120V, I think I recommend getting a 240V unit. If anyone needed one changed from 120V to 240V I would be happy to do that for you.

Technically this also makes sense. Having a higher voltage on the primary of the R-Core transformer might make for a better coupling to power then 120V..

 

[dminches]

Do you advise against owners trying other power supplies with the ATVX? For starters, I don’t know if the supplied power supply just puts out a straight 12V (or different voltage) or if there are some tricks going on. I happen to have a fairly expensive Sean Jacobs LPS and wondered if it could push the ATVX to a higher level.

 

[Xymox]

This questions comes up a lot. I need to do FAQs on the web site, I have just been too busy.. Its a VERY good and obvious question. Right at the start of my project WAY back in this thread, I started off using high end linears. But I needed more then they offered.

The linear is better then anything else in the market for its use. The reason for this is remote sensing. Well also the R-Core transformer as most companies are still using older tech toroid based transformers..

The output is 14.150 VDC +- 0.00001Vdc under load. It has 20uV RMS of noise. This is better then any linear on the market. Its not possible to reach these numbers without remote sense. Remote sensing means that it regulates and cancels noise at a remote point. In this case I extend sensing all the way from the power supply right into the AppleTV and onto the PCB. So the power supply is regulating and noise canceling INSIDE the appleTV. This is a radically different approach and yields vastly better performance. It also has a very unusual feature I am not willing to discuss publiclly.

There are other differences. The impedance of the power supply is precisely tuned to the cap network and the ATV. This very important if you are doing noise canceling out to 1Mhz.

The 14.15 VDC has been specifically chosen for a really important reason I dont want to discuss. It has to do with the PWM voltage regulators in the ATV and the spectra of the harmonics.

The R-Core transformer provides a really complete isolation of the wall power and the regulation. This isolation is super important for the ATV and its HDMI output. The AppleTV needs a floating DC negative side. It needs a balanced power output. This is _mandatory_ or HDMI will have noise from grounding of the display/processor VS the grounding of the ATV. This will lead to all manner of serious issues that will result in complete loss of HDMI lock. The R-Core transformer is the best solution for isolation that exists.

So overall its important to look at the ATVX + Linear as a system.

That said, you could drive it with a normal linear and it would work at 12V. BUT. It wont look/sound anything like it does now and most likely you would immd have all sorts of HDMI issues. The pinout is simple. A adapter could be made. I dont recommend it.

I would LOVE it if someone made a super high end sensing linear. These guys make a GREAT product, and the only one I know of with sensing and noise cancellation - Note the 4 pin connector.. I was excited about it and would have pointed it out here, but... I recently did email with them they said:

For now, HYPSOS does not have a floating output, because the transformer would have to be much larger to be in the second protection class, and that would be problematic in terms of space. We are thinking about this in the future, of course, but for now it is what it is. Second, the Hypsos has a higher noise floor, which is a result of its regulated output and the fact that it is capable of delivering a much higher resting current. Third, the HYPSOS is designed to handle very large current spikes, which requires more capacitance at the output, and this slows down the feedback, making the bandwidth no more than 100 kHz. Your power supply may be better because it was designed to power a specific device.

I have to give them huge points as that was dead on electronics. My supply is MADE for its use. You just cant swap in a generic linear.

I have been encouraging linear power suppliers to make 4 pin wideband remote sensing supplies. Linears in the audio market are WAY behind in what can be done. I think a linear isould be able to do 20uV ( or lower ) noise under wideband complex noise and have PPM accuracy with measured long term and short term drift. This is actually easy. I dont know why only Ferrum Audio has done this. They run sensing right out to the tip of the connector. They are way ahead of the others. A 2nd gen of thier device could hit the PPM and uV level specs.. If they do,, or anyone does, I will immd provide adapters because then maybe it might be better.

GREAT QUESTION tho. I am glad to have posted the answer here.. I just need to get a FAQ on the web page going. For so many things, hehehe..