Aqua Formula - settings new levels of R2R sonics and price performance

[asiufy]

The Formula vs La Scala II Optologic comparison would be interesting as to how close the half as expensive La Scala gets to the flagship.

Among other things, the Formula has a better power supply for the digital section (and better transformers overall), better resistors for the R2R ladder and separate boards for each R2R ladder (the La Scala has all 4 ladders on one board). However, given that the Formula employs a solid stage output stage and the La Scala a tube/mosfet output stage, its hard to know whether the difference in the sound can be mainly attributed to the different output stages or the 3 elements above.

Srajan Ebaen reviewed both but I am trying to grasp from his La Scala II Optologic review (http://www.6moons.com/audioreviews2/aqua3/1.html) as to what the difference really is, besides the La Scala being thicker, more opaque and the Formula being faster and clearer. I can't even read between the lines...

Well, your description of the differences ("thicker", "more opaque", "faster", "clearer") is how I would describe the difference between the entry-level La Voce to the Formula. Both are SS, but the La Voce uses a chip.

Formula is faster, with more presence, more bite too. Still, I think the La Voce (and the entire Aqua line, BTW) is ideal for folks who are traditionally prejudiced against digital (Ron, you hear me? hehehe). They are very "rounded", yet not flabby. Very robust.

We liked them so much we've picked up the line, as I think it's different enough from the MSB (and the Linn, and the Auralic), as we can then serve different tastes.

BTW, while I've tested both La Voce and Formula with the SGM, they are spectacular in their own right with a less elaborate transport, like the Auralic Aries for instance. The Aries is actually a good, inexpensive complement for the Aquas, as it adds a certain sharpness that pairs well with the Aquas.

 

[sbfx]

sad to report no progress.

been busy at work and battling getting sick for 10 days now (Doc says I have some sort of Bronchitis.....everyone seems to be sick here.....long cold dark winter), so right to bed when I get home. little listening or posting time. and my wife is making sure (meal ticket). when I do listen it's play list from server, not transport use. and no choice to tear apart my gear to install the transport on top of the dac to allow it to benefit from the Herzan. then I'm traveling this weekend back late next week. at least it will be to a warm(er) place.

I will do my best to get to it.

Mike,

Hope your feeling better.

I'm very keen to know the performance of the disc spinner against the SGM. Do post once you've had the chance to compare them.

 

[Mike Lavigne]

Mike,

Hope your feeling better.

I'm very keen to know the performance of the disc spinner against the SGM. Do post once you've had the chance to compare them.

I am better thanks.

was gone the last 5 days on a business trip; now back. I will try to get that done in the next week. have a visitor tonight, and also the Sweet 16 (American College Basketball Tournament) on TV that will distract me. but I want to know too.

 

[LL21]

Mike,

Hope your feeling better.

I'm very keen to know the performance of the disc spinner against the SGM. Do post once you've had the chance to compare them.

+1 and +1

 

[spiritofmusic]

I really can't see how the Aqua transport has any chance against the SGM

 

[Mike Lavigne]

I really can't see how the Aqua transport has any chance against the SGM

depends on how much the Herzan helps the Aqua transport. but my intuition agrees with you. OTOH a modestly priced transport has advantages in ease of use compared to having to rip a disc in many situations. so it depends on your listening culture.....and where and how you acquire new music.

many of us are still living in a silver disc world.

 

[steve williams]

can anyone comment about the Tantalum caps in the Formula? Perhaps Edward might comment should he read this post as I am far from being electronic savvy

My understanding is Tantalum is far from being in the category of great capacitors. I'm not knocking the product but trying to understand why they went with Tantalum which IIRC are $5 capacitors

 

[Mike Lavigne]

can anyone comment about the Tantalum caps in the Formula? Perhaps Edward might comment should he read this post as I am far from being electronic savvy

so then you are parroting someone else's opinion here? or you've compared capacitors and found these Tantalum ones lacking?

My understanding is Tantalum is far from being in the category of great capacitors. I'm not knocking the product but trying to understand why they went with Tantalum which IIRC are $5 capacitors

if anyone wants to comment on this, please....please.....start another thread about it. I don't want to have to wade through 50 posts by all the 'experts' on capacitors and other techie stuff to find the actual listening comments on the Aqua.

 

[steve williams]

Sorry Mike I agree. I'll ask Edward privately.

 

[Mike Lavigne]

Sorry Mike I agree. I'll ask Edward privately.

thanks Steve.

 

[spiritofmusic]

Mike, I say that as a dedicated cdp fan, never having personally made the move to streaming
But I've had tons of exposure to the SGM and I'm more than convinced it offers another world of digital musical realism from any cdp (and mine is right up there)
It's vanishingly low, almost zero, noise flr, is SOTA I'm absolutely sure, and can't be beat by any transport

 

[Mike Lavigne]

Mike, I say that as a dedicated cdp fan, never having personally made the move to streaming
But I've had tons of exposure to the SGM and I'm more than convinced it offers another world of digital musical realism from any cdp (and mine is right up there)
It's vanishingly low, almost zero, noise flr, is SOTA I'm absolutely sure, and can't be beat by any transport

as an SGM owner I agree, but sonic performance is not the whole picture. the question becomes just how close a modestly priced transport can get.

maybe if we talk $30k++ Esoteric drive based dCs or CH Precision transport they get closer to the SGM, and at those prices they should be equal, but how about an $8k USD list price transport? can it be good enough to earn it's way into a top level digital set-up?

 

[microstrip]

can anyone comment about the Tantalum caps in the Formula? Perhaps Edward might comment should he read this post as I am far from being electronic savvy

My understanding is Tantalum is far from being in the category of great capacitors. I'm not knocking the product but trying to understand why they went with Tantalum which IIRC are $5 capacitors

Steve,

Using just part of the story can be misleading. From the Formula literature : " With the exception of six superior quality electrolytics, all other caps are Tantalum, solid-polymer OS-CON and double-metalized MJP. The signal path itself is direct-coupled and free of all capacitors. "

Tantalum are known to be inadequate for the signal path - but as we can read "The signal path itself is direct-coupled and free of all capacitors. " , so they are not used for signal coupling. For other purposes that need higher value capacitance, such as decoupling power supplies or audio sections, they are better suited technically and more reliable (and more expensive) than electrolytic capacitors and are chosen for these sections. Surely because they are technically adequate and, in the opinion of the designer, result in better sound quality.

We should remember that sometimes inexpensive parts can result in superb sound quality - the most famous parts in the audio history were the resistors of the Wavac SH833 costing usd 350000 - they were low cost inexpensive generic metal case power resistors coming from a famous UK electronic warehouse, RS Components!

BTW, Lamm is also known to use many non expensive but excellent quality components in their products - audiophiles who love the ultra-expensive fancy audiophile components of boutique companies will be disappointed if they see the inside!

 

[microstrip]

Mike, I say that as a dedicated cdp fan, never having personally made the move to streaming
But I've had tons of exposure to the SGM and I'm more than convinced it offers another world of digital musical realism from any cdp (and mine is right up there)
It's vanishingly low, almost zero, noise flr, is SOTA I'm absolutely sure, and can't be beat by any transport

I will wait for Mike opinion and will not be astonished with either conclusion. In the particular case of the DCS Vivaldi, the dedicated transport sounds significantly better - more body and real dynamics - than any server or NAS I have tried - although I have not tried the SGM or any CAPs top level server.

 

[bonzo75]

I will wait for Mike opinion and will not be astonished with either conclusion. In the particular case of the DCS Vivaldi, the dedicated transport sounds significantly better - more body and real dynamics - than any server or NAS I have tried - although I have not tried the SGM or any CAPs top level server.

Hi this changes transport to transport. A very good transport will do better than server on dynamics, depth, oomph, but many CD players are not good enough. As a transport only, I much prefer esoteric transports to dCS transports but that makes sense only for a third party dac.

I heard Ethernet MQA into meridian ultra dac and that was much better than playing SPDIF through paganini. So it can change based on streaming implementation.

As a group we compared metronome streamer to metronome CD, I have compared vivaldi to aurender x100, and while vivaldi was better, not by much, transporting to vivaldi dac. Another forumite, Custodian, sold off his Scarletti because his W20 sounds better into his Vivaldi dac

 

[Blue58]

Hi this changes transport to transport. A very good transport will do better than server on dynamics, depth, oomph, but many CD players are not good enough. As a transport only, I much prefer esoteric transports to dCS transports but that makes sense only for a third party dac.

I heard Ethernet MQA into meridian ultra dac and that was much better than playing SPDIF through paganini. So it can change based on streaming implementation.

As a group we compared metronome streamer to metronome CD, I have compared vivaldi to aurender x100, and while vivaldi was better, not by much, transporting to vivaldi dac. Another forumite, Custodian, sold off his Scarletti because his W20 sounds better into his Vivaldi dac

I can tell you there is no lack of dynamics from the SGM compared to the Esoteric transport used in the Audio Aero. Witness the fourth movement from Scheherazade last weekend at mine after which Spiritofmusic and I felt as though we'd been dashed on the rocks too.

 

[bonzo75]

I can tell you there is no lack of dynamics from the SGM compared to the Esoteric transport used in the Audio Aero. Witness the fourth movement from Scheherazade last weekend at mine after which Spiritofmusic and I felt as though we'd been dashed on the rocks too.

I don't know the Audio Aero transports. Esoteric had multiple transports, the good ones being in their 01 02 and 03 (K01, K02, K03). And P series. Their UX series, for example, does not have the same level of transport. It would be good to compare SGM with K01/02 on that front.

My point is that it depends on the CD transport and one cannot generalize the difference based on how a Vivaldi or a Aqua CD player will sound.

As for me, the best transport I heard was the Ethernet streaming MQA into the new Meridian Ultra dac. Only caveat is that it was with unfamiliar recordings, so I will need to stress test that more. But I haven't heard such liquidity and tone in digital before

 

[Legolas]

I don't know the Audio Aero transports. Esoteric had multiple transports, the good ones being in their 01 02 and 03 (K01, K02, K03). And P series. Their UX series, for example, does not have the same level of transport. It would be good to compare SGM with K01/02 on that front.

My point is that it depends on the CD transport and one cannot generalize the difference based on how a Vivaldi or a Aqua CD player will sound.

As for me, the best transport I heard was the Ethernet streaming MQA into the new Meridian Ultra dac. Only caveat is that it was with unfamiliar recordings, so I will need to stress test that more. But I haven't heard such liquidity and tone in digital before

I don't like the sound of the Esoteric K-01 as a DAC and Transport combo. Quite possibly the transport is excellent and is used by many other manufacturers, but the DAC had a cold, hifi sort of character I couldn't enjoy or believe the music illusion. I have heard transports utilising a valve in the SPDIF output and that seems to help a lot IMO, as does dedicated PS and tube regulation. So there is clearly a big difference in quality in various transports, possibly better than any streamer could attain? Regardless, even if that was the case, I really couldn't face going back to spinning CDs. I surpassed my previous transport 3 years ago, so I am trying to keep my head in the ground and not even consider a transport could be better!!!

On MQA, that is indeed promising. In my small test off MQA from Tidal in A+ to my NOS DAC played at 96K it does sound very good. Off course I can't comment on the unfolded MQA component, but would like to hear it.

bonzo75, did the Meridian sound more convincing than your GG on DSD?

 

[Legolas]

as an SGM owner I agree, but sonic performance is not the whole picture. the question becomes just how close a modestly priced transport can get.

maybe if we talk $30k++ Esoteric drive based dCs or CH Precision transport they get closer to the SGM, and at those prices they should be equal, but how about an $8k USD list price transport? can it be good enough to earn it's way into a top level digital set-up?

I get what you mean, but would add price does not always relate to performance.

This hobby is quite insane but addictive I admit. I wonder if pricing gear manufacturers could market them much cheaper and still make a living especially in small companies that sell direct (no dealer 50% mark-up) but instead 'align' pricing to others who already are insanely expensive. The CH Precision is a good example IMO. We can look back to the Goldmund days of 100K+ power amplifiers now selling for 18K a few years later (one on Agon now). And the CH Precision C1 at 22K, that then need the X1 and D1 making it again insane money. The Kassandre first model was 18K, then the current DAC suddenly became 35K, 55K for the signature and 82K for the top unit.

It would be great if someone could grab this market by the b...s and make a top DAC for a realistic price. Can a DAC costing 82K really be justified, you can buy a house for that much. The tech is out there, parts are cheap relatively, CNC cases easy to get made on low volumes. I wish I had the knowledge to design one, as I would definitely have a go. Hmm, the Soekris board is 300 USD, grab an Audio Note Kit DAC, build a new chassis, some trick parts, nice DHT line stage, Lundai output transformers.... well it is a nice idea.

 

[bonzo75]

I don't like the sound of the Esoteric K-01 as a DAC and Transport combo. Quite possibly the transport is excellent and is used by many other manufacturers, but the DAC had a cold, hifi sort of character I couldn't enjoy or believe the music illusion. I have heard transports utilising a valve in the SPDIF output and that seems to help a lot IMO, as does dedicated PS and tube regulation. So there is clearly a big difference in quality in various transports, possibly better than any streamer could attain? Regardless, even if that was the case, I really couldn't face going back to spinning CDs. I surpassed my previous transport 3 years ago, so I am trying to keep my head in the ground and not even consider a transport could be better!!!

On MQA, that is indeed promising. In my small test off MQA from Tidal in A+ to my NOS DAC played at 96K it does sound very good. Off course I can't comment on the unfolded MQA component, but would like to hear it.

bonzo75, did the Meridian sound more convincing than your GG on DSD?

Hi I agree with you about the quality of the Esoteric dac. They sold their dacs on the back of their transports. But the transport itself was good.

I compared the Meridian on redbook PCM through a CD to the Lampi and it wasn't as good on complex stuff, but was really good, and better than all dacs I have heard recently. This was with the same recordings. When I was demoed the demo Meridian recordings via MQA/Ethernet, they sounded better, and was more chamber music. But like I caveated above, I have no way of knowing the intrinsic quality of the recording, so I will hold off till I stress test. Also the thing is this will soon flow to other dacs. But for me, this ethernet streaming is clearly the way to go.

As for DSD, I only have experience with Lampi DSD at Audiophile Bill's using Auralic Aries mainly, and that sounds awesome, - but what I am not interested in is spending loads on a server to optimize streaming. I have been searching patiently for a cheap streaming option, and think it is a matter of time before all dacs add ethernet cards and stream, and if MQA recordings keep growing they will all adopt it. Yes it was unfolded, 24/382 or so.