Aqua Formula - settings new levels of R2R sonics and price performance

[wisnon]

Hi Tang, love your madness - where you need sense you stick to vinyl, and use digital for some audiophile fun.

If that is the case, it would be better to get a streaming solution and max out the convenience factor.
An uber spinner system for someone not in love with digital sounds misplaced to me.

Of course, its his choice, but I don't see the logic.

 

[wisnon]

Tang, the buzz re JMF on AE forums out of HK is v positive
Analog devotees really extolling it's virtues
You have lucked out
I love hearing about a guy who has a $50k digital front end for occas listening ??
I hope yr wife and friends know how charmed they are
I just have a $1200 Oppo for guests in my non audio room lounge ??

Without going that extreme, a nice CDP couple with a Memory player Mini (or that new 432 Dutch/Belgian server Flyer speaks highly of--also defragging the memory) should suffice for the occasional dalliance in digital.

 

[spiritofmusic]

I guess if you have the cash, you have the choice
Tang doesn't strike me as a person who needs to ask "how much?" in the absence of a price tag
He took a punt on a costly combination he didn't know much about
Never been in that position myself
And I do suspect he's being a little bit coy, I'm sure he's getting a lot from his digital front end, CDs of his choice sounding a lot better thru his rig than other combinations
My guess is he's auditioned CH Precision, Soulution and the like before settling on his decision

 

[KostasP.]

Hello Al M,

Thank you for your approving response. I do both vinyl and digital (mainly PCM) but I have no dogmatic, pre-conceived and pre-judgemental views about them. Excellent and equally terrible examples exist in both of them. Of the two however, amongst the ubiquitous professional posters here (their prerogative by the way), digital receives un-substantiated and derogatory commentary, largely based on bias, insufficient knowledge, lack of direct recording experience and mainly the inability to make the all-important distinction between the inherent qualities of good digital gear and the final data that they listen to.

They fail to realise that often the tonal\timbral differences, in comparison to analogue, are due to the various processes, i.e over-processing, during the production of the digital product (over-sampling, down-sampling, switching between PCM and DSD, etc.), and NOT the inherent capabilities of the digital recorder, as a purist medium.

Preconception and ignorance in our hobby (we are all guilty) is a disease but it is curable. Everyone, in this case, can perform a simple test: Record a vinyl track on a relatively affordable but excellent Tascam DA 3000 (in either PCM or DSD), match levels and see if a difference can be discerned (blind-folded preferably). Native digital playback and direct, such as in this case, does not suffer from the artefacts often assigned to it. Those who critisize the medium should critisize the people using it, not the medium. The so called "digititis’’ is predominantly a manipulated disease, perhaps similar to "analogitis’’ being equally man-induced. They can potentially be perfectly imperfect and imperfectly perfect (an oxymoron but makes sense to me).

I apologize for my digression but, in a sense, my comments are pertinent to the overall totality of this thread and I am certain that similar views have been advanced before. A reminder does not hurt!

By the way, apart from CD spinning, we share another ......’’fetish’’- avantgarde music; in my case, not so much classically oriented. Loosely termed non-stereotyped, non-formulaic, emancipated, non-conformist music, exploring tonal\timbral relationships between sounds and instruments, either for sheer effect, contrast, impact or other thematic purposes, not that melodic infusions are totally absent. I immerse myself in sounds in space and time and, as an audiophile, I have found that this type of music often offers some of the best sonic examples, as instruments are treated more equally in the mixing and mastering, compared to the traditional mixes where, very often, some instruments play a much more subordinate and subdued role (no democracy here).

Cheers to all and be yourselves, Kostas.

 

[bonzo75]

As a listener, does it matter if the differences are due to over-processing during the production of the digital medium or the inherent capabilities of the digital recorder?

Btw, the Tascam thing was already experimented with as local audiophile Bill did that http://www.whatsbestforum.com/showt...usic-Any-ideas&p=441862&viewfull=1#post441862

 

[wisnon]

I guess if you have the cash, you have the choice
Tang doesn't strike me as a person who needs to ask "how much?" in the absence of a price tag
He took a punt on a costly combination he didn't know much about
Never been in that position myself
And I do suspect he's being a little bit coy, I'm sure he's getting a lot from his digital front end, CDs of his choice sounding a lot better thru his rig than other combinations
My guess is he's auditioned CH Precision, Soulution and the like before settling on his decision

as i said, its his choice. just don't see the logic.

 

[bonzo75]

If that is the case, it would be better to get a streaming solution and max out the convenience factor.
An uber spinner system for someone not in love with digital sounds misplaced to me.

Of course, its his choice, but I don't see the logic.

There is a lot of logic. If I am indifferent to something, I would like to buy what I have not tried, sell it off, and then get another one. One of the benefits of going around and listening to a lot of gear, is that most of it gets crossed off the buy list. As audiophiles we always have that urge to try the other thing, and if we have heard it, we might not buy it, unless it was truly spectacular. Since his primary listening is vinyl, this is most easily done with digital.

So I am assuming his logic is not convenience, but the audiophile joy of yet another piece of gear he has not heard before

 

[853guy]

The Wadax transport is a server. Not a CDP

Here you go, Bonzo.

I don't know about you, but based solely on looks alone, I want one. (Though if someone forced me to take the JMF, I guess I could suck it up and give it rack space.)



And yes, it spins CDs and SACDs, should you have the former, and any of the latter.

http://www.monoandstereo.com/2017/03/new-wadax-atlantis-ultimate-reference.html#more

 

[spiritofmusic]

I wonder how many Wadax Atlantis transports will be used for occas discs, and to entertain visitors to the office?
If they're clever, they won't sell any for <$35k + $1

 

[bonzo75]

Here you go, Bonzo.

I don't know about you, but based solely on looks alone, I want one. (Though if someone forced me to take the JMF, I guess I could suck it up and give it rack space.)

View attachment 31730

And yes, it spins CDs and SACDs, should you have the former, and any of the latter.

http://www.monoandstereo.com/2017/03/new-wadax-atlantis-ultimate-reference.html#more

Yes saw that it is an upcoming one. Got confused with an existing wadax server

 

[Steve Williams]

Here you go, Bonzo.

I don't know about you, but based solely on looks alone, I want one. (Though if someone forced me to take the JMF, I guess I could suck it up and give it rack space.)

View attachment 31730

And yes, it spins CDs and SACDs, should you have the former, and any of the latter.

http://www.monoandstereo.com/2017/03/new-wadax-atlantis-ultimate-reference.html#more

That's a very astute comment as to the playing of SACD's. I have a large SACD collection

I know Mike Lavigne has a large collection as well. Mike if you read this what do you do in this case.

 

[Mike Lavigne]

That's a very astute comment as to the playing of SACD's. I have a large SACD collection

I know Mike Lavigne has a large collection as well. Mike if you read this what do you do in this case.

everyone of my SACD's is ripped, and then some. an SACD player is not something I would pay a premium for. if given a choice I would choose a dsd file instead of an SACD (which allows me to run it through the SGM). which is why I'm curious how the JMF might compare to the Aqua La Diva transport on CD's......which to my ears is really good sounding, and only 25% as expensive as the JMF.

 

[spiritofmusic]

The JMF is unique in playing all formats incl Blu Ray Pure
All those lovely live concerts in bleeding edge sq
Maybe this function is worth the entry ticket

 

[Steve Williams]

everyone of my SACD's is ripped, and then some. an SACD player is not something I would pay a premium for. if given a choice I would choose a dsd file instead of an SACD (which allows me to run it through the SGM). which is why I'm curious how the JMF might compare to the Aqua La Diva transport on CD's......which to my ears is really good sounding, and only 25% as expensive as the JMF.

I definitely agree about not paying a premium.If for no other reason this is why I likely won't sell my PD MPS-5

 

[853guy]

everyone of my SACD's is ripped, and then some. an SACD player is not something I would pay a premium for. if given a choice I would choose a dsd file instead of an SACD (which allows me to run it through the SGM). which is why I'm curious how the JMF might compare to the Aqua La Diva transport on CD's......which to my ears is really good sounding, and only 25% as expensive as the JMF.

I definitely agree about not paying a premium.If for no other reason this is why I likely won't sell my PD MPS-5

Hello Mike and Steve,

Without being indelicate, may I point out that both your turntable thingys with multiple arms and multiple delicately balanced needles cost, well… a lot compared to many other “really good sounding” turntable thingys, in a manner not too dissimilar to the way in which the JMF, and likely, the Atlantis will of course, cost multiples of many other, lesser-priced “really good sounding” CD and SACD spinners.

Were we to reject a product based on price differential alone, it’s likely none of us would own the systems we do. The high-end is merely a misspelling of diminishing returns, is it not? Yet in order to extract the highest possible engagement with our inanimate objects of desire, we gladly pay the premium for SOTA technology to spin a medium long-considered “dead” and certainly inferior in resolution as measured in bit-depth against more modern formats.

If we love music as much as we say we do, and are prepared to fork out first-world fortunes for a 12” disc spinner in which the inconvenience factor is apparently not enough to deter us, why would we not want to do the same for one of, if not the richest sources of music whatever genre, sub-genre or beyond one could ever wish to listen to?

The joke about vinyl being dead has never been less true. And certainly, the number of manufacturers who have been part of its resurrection in attempting to produce SOTA components is only increasing. It is possible, perhaps, the this is the hour of the CD, and like many other technologies that were abandoned before their zenith (yes, we’re looking at you, vinyl and R2R), the time has come to see a new level of engagement extracted from a medium much-maligned and considered “redundant” but still without question, containing some of the finest performances never put to any other format?

Just a thought.

Be well!

853guy

 

[Steve Williams]

Hello Mike and Steve,

Without being indelicate, may I point out that both your turntable thingys with multiple arms and multiple delicately balanced needles cost, well… a lot compared to many other “really good sounding” turntable thingys, in a manner not too dissimilar to the way in which the JMF, and likely, the Atlantis will of course, cost multiples of many other, lesser-priced “really good sounding” CD and SACD spinners.

Were we to reject a product based on price differential alone, it’s likely none of us would own the systems we do. The high-end is merely a misspelling of diminishing returns, is it not? Yet in order to extract the highest possible engagement with our inanimate objects of desire, we gladly pay the premium for SOTA technology to spin a medium long-considered “dead” and certainly inferior in resolution as measured in bit-depth against more modern formats.

If we love music as much as we say we do, and are prepared to fork out first-world fortunes for a 12” medium spinner in which the inconvenience factor is apparently not enough to deter us, why would we not want to do the same for one of, if not the richest sources of music whatever genre, sub-genre or beyond one could ever wish to listen to?

The joke about vinyl being dead has never been less true. And certainly, the number of manufacturers who have been part of its resurrection in attempting to produce SOTA components is only increasing. It is possible, perhaps, the this is the hour of the CD, and like many other technologies that were abandoned before their zenith (yes, we’re looking at you, vinyl and R2R), the time has come to see a new level of engagement extracted from a medium much-maligned and considered “redundant” but still without question, containing some of the finest performances never put to any other format?

Just a thought.

Be well!

853guy

all excellent and valid

BTW Mike IMO if you are feeding DSD files through your SGM via HQP then IMO they aren't DSD anymore


Seems Tango hit a walk off homerun

 

[spiritofmusic]

853, yr words are music to my dealer's ears
He only sells one digital product, the tubed output Loit one-box non-over sampling cdp, £24k, and absolutely no streaming products, seperate dacs
As an owner of the stellar one-box Eera Tentation cdp, I'm a massive fan of spinning silver discs, but I keep telling him he needs to offer streaming options to his customers, yet he is adamant cd will have its time again
Now, will two bleeding edge cd transports $35k+ from JMF and Wadax, plus obv the few other dedicated high quality transports out there like Mike's Aqua, be the rearguard my man is kind of hoping for?
I remain bullish I've been more right than wrong in sticking w the humble 5" disc

 

[Mike Lavigne]

all excellent and valid

BTW Mike IMO if you are feeding DSD files through your SGM via HQP then IMO they aren't DSD anymore

with a discrete RTR dac such as the Formula at some point or another they become dxd (352/32) anyway. just like your CD's on the Playbacks get converted to dsd all the time.

and understand that 80% to 90% of your SACD's started life as a PCM mastered recording unless it's tape sourced (and even some of those got first mastered to PCM prior to SACD). so worrying about this issue is not useful.

we choose our dac for how it does all these things. I'm happy with how my dsd files sound with the Formula (in my particular system and to my ears)......and prefer that to how they sounded through the Nagra HD, the GG, and the Playback Designs. so it's all good.

YMMV.

 

[Steve Williams]

with a discrete RTR dac such as the Formula at some point or another they become dxd (352/32) anyway. just like your CD's on the Playbacks get converted to dsd all the time.

and understand that 80% to 90% of your SACD's started life as a PCM mastered recording unless it's tape sourced (and even some of those got first mastered to PCM prior to SACD). so worrying about this issue is not useful.

we choose our dac for how it does all these things. I'm happy with how my dsd files sound with the Formula......and prefer that to how they sounded through the Nagra HD, the GG, and the Playback Designs. so it's all good.

But Mike

This begs the question....are you saying that DSD files played via SGM-->HQP-->Formula sounds better than a standard red book fed the same way into the Formula. At that point isn't everything DXD and if so how could they sound different?

BTW, it is all good as you have descended the path and I guess we are all picking your brain

 

[Mike Lavigne]

But Mike

This begs the question....are you saying that DSD files played via SGM-->HQP-->Formula sounds better than a standard red book fed the same way into the Formula. At that point isn't everything DXD and if so how could they sound different?

BTW, it is all good as you have descended the path and I guess we are all picking your brain

yes. I would say in general that a dsd file is preferred to a redbook file through the Formula-SGM.....which could be greater care in mastering too. then when you get into higher rez PCM and dsd the results somewhat revert to a bit of a hierarchy of higher rez sourced recordings. with HQ Player dsd or PCM sourced files is not a clear winner on either side as it tends to help them all.

and I am working through a period of settings experimentation right now with HQ Player and Roon relative to the Formula dac specifically so stay tuned.