Audio Alto AA R101 FR Single-driver loudspeaker

[asiufy]

Well, I have to admit I was never a fan of single-driver speakers. I could understand the appeal (coherence), but in practice, I felt they always fell short, either on their own (pure single drivers) or when augmented with tweeters/woofers.

So, it was with this warning, and with great curiosity, that I went to listen to Audio Alto's AA R101 FR, at designer's Sasha Burian's home. He was powering it with a tube amplifier of his own design, all 20W of it, and an Audio Alto DAC/streamer source. From the first note, I was floored. It was all there. The sparkle in the highs, nicely textured midrange. And the coherence! Sure, no real bottom/low-end (it's rated at 36Hz), but in the relatively small living room Sasha had, it was amazing, even on good ol' rock'n'roll!

This speaker really convinced me that Sasha did things differently, towards a common goal. Long story short, we're now the US representative for his products, and we have a pair of AA R101 FR in the store!

The US price is $3,999.

 

[morricab]

Well, I have to admit I was never a fan of single-driver speakers. I could understand the appeal (coherence), but in practice, I felt they always fell short, either on their own (pure single drivers) or when augmented with tweeters/woofers.

So, it was with this warning, and with great curiosity, that I went to listen to Audio Alto's AA R101 FR, at designer's Sasha Burian's home. He was powering it with a tube amplifier of his own design, all 20W of it, and an Audio Alto DAC/streamer source. From the first note, I was floored. It was all there. The sparkle in the highs, nicely textured midrange. And the coherence! Sure, no real bottom/low-end (it's rated at 36Hz), but in the relatively small living room Sasha had, it was amazing, even on good ol' rock'n'roll!

This speaker really convinced me that Sasha did things differently, towards a common goal. Long story short, we're now the US representative for his products, and we have a pair of AA R101 FR in the store!

The US price is $3,999.
View attachment 56657

Do you know any details? What is the driver? What is the cabinet loading?

 

[Folsom]

It's a MarkAudio driver.

 

[morricab]

It's a MarkAudio driver.

Those have a good reputation but not very high sensitivity...good frequency response though...

 

[Folsom]

Those have a good reputation but not very high sensitivity...good frequency response though...

If you good is measured in a big DB window. They're good for a fullrange.

 

[asiufy]

They are rated at only 85dB, 6 ohm. But as I said, they worked surprisingly well with just 20W.

 

[morricab]

If you good is measured in a big DB window. They're good for a fullrange.

Yes, I meant for a full range driver

 

[morricab]

They are rated at only 85dB, 6 ohm. But as I said, they worked surprisingly well with just 20W.

As long as you don’t push them too hard I guess lack of power sucking crossover has benefits

 

[Folsom]

They’re extremely efficient, that’s how they get away with low power, low sensitivity.

 

[morricab]

They’re extremely efficient, that’s how they get away with low power, low sensitivity.

That doesn’t make any sense. Sensitivity and efficiency are linked.

 

[Folsom]

Incorrect. You talk about thermal compression all the time and you think efficiency is sensitivity?

Brad, you need to read up on speaker stuff more. Reactance, BL, inductance, suspension linearity, VC venting... xmax...

I have a pair of FE126EN, you’d be shocked how loud a pair of EFFICIENT Mark Audios contest with them on the same amount of power. I’ve had a pair of them, too.

 

[morricab]

Incorrect. You talk about thermal compression all the time and you think efficiency is sensitivity?

Brad, you need to read up on speaker stuff more. Reactance, BL, inductance, suspension linearity, VC venting... xmax...

I have a pair of FE126EN, you’d be shocked how loud a pair of EFFICIENT Mark Audios contest with them on the same amount of power. I’ve had a pair of them, too.

Read what I wrote instead of always popping off. I didn’t same it was the same I said it is linked.
Sensitivity is the actual SPL a driver makes with a given input. Do you can’t tell me a driver with 85db sensitivity with a 2.83V input will sound louder than one with 90+ dB and the same input voltage.
Efficiency is the % of the input power that is converted to acoustic power...clearly the two are connected.
The relationship is sensitivity = 112 + 10log(efficiency).

Clearly the Mark Audio speaker is both relatively insensitive and inefficient (about 0.2%). It might work well due to the easy load but don’t say BS like they are insensitive but efficient because that is false.

 

[Folsom]

I know what you’re saying but it isn’t real world applicable.

Firstly, no I don’t think an 85dbs is louder at 1watt than 93dbs. But that doesn’t mean the 85dbs speaker will have less output from the same amplifier. Think about this, one has extremely stiff suspension and a spider, the other has no spider and advanced suspension. The one without a spider also has 8mm Xmax. That’s freakin massive Xmax for a fullrange. Through 15w at each, see what happens!

So while you calc for efficiency is true, it doesn’t account for compression of any kind, or reactance. (Btw the driver is .35% “efficient” because they are 87dbs drivers in a 85dbs speaker that would have your efficiency)

If you really want to look at what real world is like you need should be looking at measured BL curves.

You can claim they are linked, but really only so far as a purely electrical standpoint is concerned (that doesn’t assume limitations mechanically). I call it a little lie we want to tell ourselves, because it says hardly anything about what we really get.

 

[morricab]

I know what you’re saying but it isn’t real world applicable.

Firstly, no I don’t think an 85dbs is louder at 1watt than 93dbs. But that doesn’t mean the 85dbs speaker will have less output from the same amplifier. Think about this, one has extremely stiff suspension and a spider, the other has no spider and advanced suspension. The one without a spider also has 8mm Xmax. That’s freakin massive Xmax for a fullrange. Through 15w at each, see what happens!

So while you calc for efficiency is true, it doesn’t account for compression of any kind, or reactance. (Btw the driver is .35% “efficient” because they are 87dbs drivers in a 85dbs speaker that would have your efficiency)

If you really want to look at what real world is like you need should be looking at measured BL curves.

You can claim they are linked, but really only so far as a purely electrical standpoint is concerned (that doesn’t assume limitations mechanically). I call it a little lie we want to tell ourselves, because it says hardly anything about what we really get.

Efficiency is Efficiency and will not increase as you get louder only lower due to thermal compression. The best case then for the Mark Audio is around 0.2% Efficiency given it's 85db sensitivity (or whatever it really is).

I don't claim they are linked...they ARE linked and the relationship is clear (but non-linear). Limitations mechanically don't really concern me because we are not Talking about operation at the limits of what the drivers can do and as I said the efficiency will only drop as the drivers get pushed to the limit and heat up their voice coils etc.

All the things you discuss are captured in the Sensitivity. When I put in one watt how much SPL comes out. When I put in 10 watts, how much comes out? This is typically not measured but would also be interesting.

One other thing that is not well known between the drivers is when the onset of thermal compression starts. The larger and more robust the voice coil is the more resistant it should be; however, I don't think the Mark Audio drivers have huge voice coils do they? What I do know is that by the time the Mark Audio driver reaches the same SPL output as the Fostex, which is 6db more sensitive, the Fostex will have one watt running through it and the Mark audio will have at least 4 watts running through it. I say at least because it might have already started to thermally compress and might take more than 4 watts to hit 93db. The Fostex for sure has a stronger motor because cone masses are similar. This means to get the higher SPL it is acclerating and decelerating faster than the Mark Audio. In the case of my Supravox drivers, they have a 2 Tesla motor, very strong and a very light 7 gram cone (for an 8 inch driver this is very light). They achieve 99db/watt this way. Producing high SPL with little motion is efficient AND sensitive because the two properties reflect one another.

 

[Folsom]

The question started with "20w" so ya I'm only talking about with any given amp like that... real world efficiency. And mechanical influence can happen way earlier than you suspect (xmax is one indicator, but then there's the BL curve...)

And you're right, put in 10w to both drivers I talked about and see what comes out! Even if you get a high peak SPL on some drivers, the measurements may be a mess. I wouldn't call any driver making a mess to be efficient - it's efficiency ends where it's normal response does.

If you want to know about a VC look are the Le & Re. You'll see drivers with similar Le & Re that have very different sensitivities, the difference is the size and shape of the magnet.

Is the Fostex faster? I don't see how, the MA can play higher frequencies than it can. That doesn't mean it'll sound fast, but technically it can move faster.

The MA has a ventilated former with copper plating... I don't think you'll see any appreciable compression within it's wattage capable range without playing movies or house music.

 

[morricab]

The question started with "20w" so ya I'm only talking about with any given amp like that... real world efficiency. And mechanical influence can happen way earlier than you suspect (xmax is one indicator, but then there's the BL curve...)

And you're right, put in 10w to both drivers I talked about and see what comes out! Even if you get a high peak SPL on some drivers, the measurements may be a mess. I wouldn't call any driver making a mess to be efficient - it's efficiency ends where it's normal response does.

If you want to know about a VC look are the Le & Re. You'll see drivers with similar Le & Re that have very different sensitivities, the difference is the size and shape of the magnet.

Is the Fostex faster? I don't see how, the MA can play higher frequencies than it can. That doesn't mean it'll sound fast, but technically it can move faster.

The MA has a ventilated former with copper plating... I don't think you'll see any appreciable compression within it's wattage capable range without playing movies or house music.

Actually, the frequency response is not really relevant because with this driver and the Fostex they are basically getting high frequencies through cone breakup and the geometry of the cone and dust cap (basically acting like a little tweeter) is what's important.

What matters is the impulse, which is dependent on the magnetic field and the weight. The Fostex is both very light and has a high BL, which means it accelerates and compresses the air very strongly in comparison. This is how it gets 93db without hardly moving...only possible with a high accelerative impulse. A compression driver at 110 db achieves this by being in a HUGE magnetic field (usually well over 2 Tesla) and being a very light driver with a VERY short excursion (which is why bass is not really on the menu for most compression drivers). This is also why the Fostex will only really work in a back loaded horn where a small excursion can be acoustically amplified. Most of the Mark Audio drivers have far lower sensitivity (average seems to be around 85db) and higher mass and lower BL. They might travel farther but they can't accelerate the same way or the SPL for a given power input would be the same. Think about it, a driver that can make 93db with hardly any excursion...where does the SPL come from then if not from a rapid acceleration and deceleration?

 

[Folsom]

First off the MA driver used in that has 2 more BL than the Fostex.

Secondly if the driver moved faster it would be changing the frequency.

I’m not interested in unpacking everything wrong with your post. I know why you think what you do, and I can tell you it’s other factors that make the sound you think is made that way (“fast”).

 

[jeff1225]

Poor asiufy, he just wanted to announce the addition of a new line to his store and it devolved into a debate between two people that will never buy said line.

lol.

 

[Folsom]

Jeffrey, Mono&Stereo did a review on this speaker and it got an award. It’s absolutely worth consideration for a main speaker. From what can be discerned, their implementation is rather smart.

I would say I’m defending the speaker from silly accusations derived from misunderstandings about wattage/efficiency/sensitivity. One should hear it to believe it though. The raw drivers are special to start, but need a smart person to integrate them properly - which was done by Audio Alto, to the tune of an award. And I’ll note that Audio Alto recommends a max room size, so yes they understand the speaker isn’t for a dance party in an airport hanger.

 

[asiufy]

Exactly, Folsom.
And I was careful also to mention that I have never, ever heard a single-driver speaker that I liked completely. This is rather special indeed. I could easily live with this as my main rig in a small-ish size room. Oh, and I just wish more people could hear it..