Audioguy HT and 2 Channel Room (Combined)

[JonFo]

Hi Chuck, congrats on the new room. Looks great.

I hope you can track down the right ch issue soon.

 

[FrantzM]

Congrats for a great looking room. Are the Dunleavy speakers back ?

Happy Holiday to All!

 

[audioguy]

Congrats for a great looking room. Are the Dunleavy speakers back ?

Happy Holiday to All!

I sold the Dunlavy VI's some time ago (to someone in Greece !!).

All of the Dunlavy's had one major flaw and that was the power handling of the tweeter. I have read about some other owners modifying the crossover and using another tweeter and getting great results, but I had not interest in doing so. That issue was very evident on loud and/or complex musical passages and certainly when playing loud action scenes on a movie.

So after evaluating many, many speakers, I came to the inescapable conclusion that not a single speaker on the market at any price will really reproduce live music. I used to think that many speakers did a great job on, for example, small jazz ensembles. And then my wife surprised me and hired a 3 piece jazz group for a previous birthday - live music in my home and realized I was chasing the impossible. We are not even close to getting the sound of live instruments reproduced. I'm sure others will disagree but after that experience in my home and season tickets to the Atlanta Symphony for over 25 years, I feel very strongly about that.

Please do not misunderstand. There are some incredible speaker systems on the market and I guess if money were no object, there are a few I would consider. And I certainly enjoy listening to speakers of the highest caliber. But money is an object and I have decided to chase "fun and entertainment" instead of ultimate accuracy. To that end, I am going to keep using the Catalysts (and the other Seaton Speakers). In this search, I concluded two other things: active speakers seem to do a much better job with dynamics that virtually any passive speaker I have heard (1 or2 "possible" exceptions) and I would never ever again own a speaker without external subs. I don't care how low the mains go, there is seldom a time when the ideal location for the mids/highs is the same as for the bass. But that's just me.

Furthermore, as others have noted, two speakers just doesn't move us very far along the road to accuracy. I have been listening to music that way for40+ years and still do but surround does a far more credible job (for me) and is certainly more "fun".

To that end, my search for a great surround processor will continue. Given my results with Dirac on my server, I am a big fan. That leads me to the Theta, the Datasat AP20i and the announced but yet to be delivered Emotiva piece. The Datasat will get eliminated since apparently it is so complicated that one needs outside help to get the most out of it. That is a deal breaker for me. I will wait to see on the other two pieces. My previous results with my Casablanca were great for sound quality and I am hopeful the new piece will carry that forward and be a lot more stable than the generation I used. I will let others lead the way. I really like the Emotive products (I have owned their amps, a preamp and a DAC) and while they would certainly not be called high end by most, the are "good enough". But given that they announced their original new SSP several years ago, jumped off the TacT wagon and onto the Dirac wagon and still don't have a released product, I will let others lead the way there as well.

But for now, I am really enjoying what I have. Going to an AT screen for the center channel, a new masking system from Carada and a new Sony 4K projector provide ample fun and entertainment for now.

And thanks for the complement. Truly appreciated.

 

[edorr]

I sold the Dunlavy VI's some time ago (to someone in Greece !!).

All of the Dunlavy's had one major flaw and that was the power handling of the tweeter. I have read about some other owners modifying the crossover and using another tweeter and getting great results, but I had not interest in doing so. That issue was very evident on loud and/or complex musical passages and certainly when playing loud action scenes on a movie.

So after evaluating many, many speakers, I came to the inescapable conclusion that not a single speaker on the market at any price will really reproduce live music. I used to think that many speakers did a great job on, for example, small jazz ensembles. And then my wife surprised me and hired a 3 piece jazz group for a previous birthday - live music in my home and realized I was chasing the impossible. We are not even close to getting the sound of live instruments reproduced. I'm sure others will disagree but after that experience in my home and season tickets to the Atlanta Symphony for over 25 years, I feel very strongly about that.

Please do not misunderstand. There are some incredible speaker systems on the market and I guess if money were no object, there are a few I would consider. And I certainly enjoy listening to speakers of the highest caliber. But money is an object and I have decided to chase "fun and entertainment" instead of ultimate accuracy. To that end, I am going to keep using the Catalysts (and the other Seaton Speakers). In this search, I concluded two other things: active speakers seem to do a much better job with dynamics that virtually any passive speaker I have heard (1 or2 "possible" exceptions) and I would never ever again own a speaker without external subs. I don't care how low the mains go, there is seldom a time when the ideal location for the mids/highs is the same as for the bass. But that's just me.

Furthermore, as others have noted, two speakers just doesn't move us very far along the road to accuracy. I have been listening to music that way for40+ years and still do but surround does a far more credible job (for me) and is certainly more "fun".

To that end, my search for a great surround processor will continue. Given my results with Dirac on my server, I am a big fan. That leads me to the Theta, the Datasat AP20i and the announced but yet to be delivered Emotiva piece. The Datasat will get eliminated since apparently it is so complicated that one needs outside help to get the most out of it. That is a deal breaker for me. I will wait to see on the other two pieces. My previous results with my Casablanca were great for sound quality and I am hopeful the new piece will carry that forward and be a lot more stable than the generation I used. I will let others lead the way. I really like the Emotive products (I have owned their amps, a preamp and a DAC) and while they would certainly not be called high end by most, the are "good enough". But given that they announced their original new SSP several years ago, jumped off the TacT wagon and onto the Dirac wagon and still don't have a released product, I will let others lead the way there as well.

But for now, I am really enjoying what I have. Going to an AT screen for the center channel, a new masking system from Carada and a new Sony 4K projector provide ample fun and entertainment for now.

And thanks for the complement. Truly appreciated.

Have you considered running Dirac on a server with either a MCH Lynx card running into an array of DACs, or USB into a MCH exasound DAC? This is the path I am heading down and I suspect it will beat the crap out of any SSP. For starters, you are avoiding HDMI, which is always a weak link in the audio chain.

When considering Theta, keep in mind they do have very limited video delay range, which basically makes it unusable with 4K - 3D content, because you can't do proper lipsynch. Datasat does not have this issue. Not sure how you would handle lipsynch running MCH video content from a server.

 

[audioguy]

Have you considered running Dirac on a server with either a MCH Lynx card running into an array of DACs, or USB into a MCH exasound DAC? This is the path I am heading down and I suspect it will beat the crap out of any SSP. For starters, you are avoiding HDMI, which is always a weak link in the audio chain.

Interesting! How do you do volume control? Are you loading your movies/music onto a server or using something like an Oppo? How do you handle video if you don't use HDMI?

 

[edorr]

Interesting! How do you do volume control? Are you loading your movies/music onto a server or using something like an Oppo? How do you handle video if you don't use HDMI?

You use HDMI for video (out of server into PJ), but not for audio.

You can either rip your DVD / BRs or spin the disc in your servers BR drive using JRiver. My plan is to rip concert movies that I watch multiple times and play one off movies in my drive.

Volume control can be done three ways. Easiest is to use digital volume control in JRiver. Second option (which I what I'll be doing) is to use DACs with VC and control them via iRule macros. Once you have the channel trim sorted out, you simple send volume up/down macro commands to the DACs. I will be using three DACs with RS232 (MSB for mains, and NAD M51 for surround / center), making this a lot easier (using IR you sometimes miss a command, and DACs get out of synch). Third option is to put a MCH analog preamp at the end of the chain. Option 1 works just fine, and is cheap. If you use a MCH DAC (exasound) it will have its own VC, so you're all set.

 

[audioguy]

You use HDMI for video (out of server into PJ), but not for audio.

You can either rip your DVD / BRs or spin the disc in your servers BR drive using JRiver. My plan is to rip concert movies that I watch multiple times and play one off movies in my drive.

Volume control can be done three ways. Easiest is to use digital volume control in JRiver. Second option (which I what I'll be doing) is to use DACs with VC and control them via iRule macros. Once you have the channel trim sorted out, you simple send volume up/down macro commands to the DACs. I will be using three DACs with RS232 (MSB for mains, and NAD M51 for surround / center), making this a lot easier (using IR you sometimes miss a command, and DACs get out of synch). Third option is to put a MCH analog preamp at the end of the chain. Option 1 works just fine, and is cheap. If you use a MCH DAC (exasound) it will have its own VC, so you're all set.

Thanks. Very interesting.

If I use a MCH analog preamp like the Parasound (http://www.audioadvisor.com/Parasou...Preamplifier/productinfo/PAHAP7/#.Ur3BzI3OrBI) that would solve the volume problem AND bass management. If I don't use that, what about bass management?

Also, under your scenario, how is the channel distance/delay issue dealt with? What about channel volume matching? Would MCH Dirac handle that or would I need to separately?

 

[edorr]

Thanks. Very interesting.

If I use a MCH analog preamp like the Parasound (http://www.audioadvisor.com/Parasou...Preamplifier/productinfo/PAHAP7/#.Ur3BzI3OrBI) that would solve the volume problem AND bass management. If I don't use that, what about bass management?

Also, under your scenario, how is the channel distance/delay issue dealt with? What about channel volume matching? Would MCH Dirac handle that or would I need to separately?

Bass management can be done in Jriver. Delay is measured and applied with Dirac calibration. In my experience, you would be better off using digital attenuation in Jriver than using anything but a very top notch MCH analog pre (I tried most of them). The macro driven VC on the DAC also beats anything but the very best MCH preamps.

 

[audioguy]

Bass management can be done in Jriver. Delay is measured and applied with Dirac calibration. In my experience, you would be better off using digital attenuation in Jriver than using anything but a very top notch MCH analog pre (I tried most of them). The macro driven VC on the DAC also beats anything but the very best MCH preamps.

What MCH preamps have you tried and what do you recommend?

What are you doing TODAY for SSP processing for movies?

How do you get 7.1 out of a 5.1 source?

[Given I am getting close to retirement, your recommendation could be a fun project ]

 

[mep]

And then my wife surprised me and hired a 3 piece jazz group for a previous birthday - live music in my home and realized I was chasing the impossible. We are not even close to getting the sound of live instruments reproduced. I'm sure others will disagree but after that experience in my home and season tickets to the Atlanta Symphony for over 25 years, I feel very strongly about that.

You are right that we aren't even close. I'm sure that when you had that jazz band playing in your house that the dynamics, intensity, and the harmonics were off the charts. And that is what I think we are lacking in our quest to achieve the "live" sound at home with our systems. And I don't think that surround sound will get you there either. Music heard live and up close is almost shocking in its dynamic intensity and density of tone. The 'colors' of the instruments with the harmonics in their proper proportions and density and the sheer dynamic range don't quite make it through the recording chain.

 

[audioguy]

You are right that we aren't even close. I'm sure that when you had that jazz band playing in your house that the dynamics, intensity, and the harmonics were off the charts. And that is what I think we are lacking in our quest to achieve the "live" sound at home with our systems. And I don't think that surround sound will get you there either. Music heard live and up close is almost shocking in its dynamic intensity and density of tone. The 'colors' of the instruments with the harmonics in their proper proportions and density and the sheer dynamic range don't quite make it through the recording chain.

You are right about the intensity and dynamics of live. But I disagree that "surround" does not increase the illusion of live.

Several years ago I had our choir director (about 150 voices) at our home for dinner and to listen to my system. I played a CD the choir had made - first in two channel and then in one of the surround modes available on my Casablanca (don't recall what it was called - maybe Circle Surround). As soon as I switched to the surround mode, he exclaimed: "That's what I hear from where I stand to direct".

The soundstage opened up dramatically and sounded much more "real". It doesn't work for all music but live recordings tend to become more real than do studio recordings.

But remember: I'm looking for "fun" more than live and surround is more fun

 

[edorr]

What MCH preamps have you tried and what do you recommend?

What are you doing TODAY for SSP processing for movies?

How do you get 7.1 out of a 5.1 source?

[Given I am getting close to retirement, your recommendation could be a fun project ]

I used the McCormack map1, theta six shooter, and emmlabs switchman. The latter two are two of the three top dogs, the third being the audio research, which Kal R. currently owns. Conrad Johnson also makes a tube MCH pre. Irrespectively, in my experience the best of these amps is equivalent to no preamp and using th VC on the dac or upstream processor. Preamps that will actually improve sq for MCH, like the expensive 2 channel preamps do, don't exist (just me experience of course). So first advice is to avoid the preamp if you can.

I am currently using a modded oppo (vanity93 board), into a trinnov processor. This works beautifully and gives me the best MCH in my room I ever had. But there are a few reasons I am looking to switch to Dirac on server directly into dacs:

I find myself listening less to some fine MCH music than I would like to because of the convenience of having my 2 channel,at my fingertips on iPad. I want to rip my MCH and play from file.

Taking out the trinnov will simplify my signal path (never a bad thing) and take out a bit of cost.

I have reason to believe running files from my server will sound better than spinning discs. This is currently the case comparing cd's payed in the oppo with the rip on server, so I hope to get the same result comparing say a DVD-a rip with spinning if.

Trinnov is quite likely the better drc system for complex theaters. I have a very simple 5.0 system and expect the trinnov drc will be at par. We will see.

Finally, I only have a 4 channel trinnov (strictly because of cost). I run my surround channels without trinnov processing (volume is matched with rs232 and macros in iRule, which is why I know this will work fine for 3 x 2 channel dac as well). With Dirac I will get drc on all channels.

I have tried a lot of different architectures to skin the MCH cat, and will be glad to offer some suggestions of things for you to try.

Parting thought. While rendezvous in New York (Chick Corea) on my system may not be 100% the real deal, to me it is close enough to enjoy it as much as a live event. Only thing you'll never get completely right is the drumkit.

 

[audioguy]

Only thing you'll never get completely right is the drumkit.

Or the blast of a trumpet or the scale of an orchestra or the space of the recording venue or .......

I'm not smart enough to know why the best audio reproduction systems don't come marginally close to live but they don't. And once I got off that train and concentrated on the "fun" part, I've never enjoyed my system more. AND upgraditis had been cured (for the most part)

The one area I will continue to focus on is digital room correction. The improvements brought about by a good implementation of that technology far exceeds the improvements brought about by everything else combined (less the speakers , room, placement and room treatment).

 

[audioguy]

Alright, curiosity is getting the better of me here. On the second picture provided, I notice some sort of "window" type thing with what appears to be light coming through it to the right of the right speaker toward the ground. If you don't mind me asking....what is that?


Tom

There is a door in that location but it was closed. So I have no clue (audio ghosts/demons??) I did not even notice it until you pointed it out.

 

[audioguy]

I have made some major changes to my equipment in the last months and have posted new photos and equipment list in my first post. Next up is to replace my 4 Seaton SubMersives with 3 dual opposed 18's - DIY. I love the SubMersives but the cost of this recent upgrade far exceeded my expectations so I need to raise some money to pay for it. Here's hoping !!

I really thought I was done but all addicts say that

I had an opportunity to purchase the Datasat AP20i at favorable pricing but given what I spent elsewhere, that will have to wait until my lottery winnings arrive. We did an interesting blind comparison of the Datasat to a much less expensive competitor. Blind testing is considered off-limits to most on this forum, but given what I was trying to accomplish, it gave me exactly what I wanted. Net results: the comparison of the two units involved not using room correction was closer than one might expect. Once comparing Audyssey to Dirac, no contest!!!

Should you care to read about what we did, go here:

 

[bonzo75]

I have made some major changes to my equipment in the last months and have posted new photos and equipment list in my first post. Next up is to replace my 4 Seaton SubMersives with 3 dual opposed 18's - DIY. I love the SubMersives but the cost of this recent upgrade far exceeded my expectations so I need to raise some money to pay for it. Here's hoping !!

I really thought I was done but all addicts say that

I had an opportunity to purchase the Datasat AP20i at favorable pricing but given what I spent elsewhere, that will have to wait until my lottery winnings arrive. We did an interesting blind comparison of the Datasat to a much less expensive competitor. Blind testing is considered off-limits to most on this forum, but given what I was trying to accomplish, it gave me exactly what I wanted. Net results: the comparison of the two units involved not using room correction was closer than one might expect. Once comparing Audyssey to Dirac, no contest!!!

Should you care to read about what we did, go here:

Hi how is the AP20i different from LS10 or RS20i?

 

[audioguy]

Hi how is the AP20i different from LS10 or RS20i?

I apologize. It was NOT an AP20i is was an RS20i.

 

[bonzo75]

I apologize. It was NOT an AP20i is was an RS20i.

Awesome stuff. hope you have the Auro 3d on. Your system might not get noticed much by other channel deficient guys playing with cables and stuff, but it will be probably the only one on this forum (?) that can play organ music and can best reproduce concert hall ambience

 

[edorr]

Awesome stuff. hope you have the Auro 3d on. Your system might not get noticed much by other channel deficient guys playing with cables and stuff, but it will be probably the only one on this forum (?) that can play organ music and can best reproduce concert hall ambience

Don't count me (or Kal) out. I am 100% committed to MCH (all my classical listening and rock on ripped BR is in MCH), and my only regret it lack of more available content. There is no comparison between MCH well done and 2 channel.

http://forum.audiogon.com/cgi-bin/fr.pl?vhome&1285196540

 

[bonzo75]

Don't count me (or Kal) out. I am 100% committed to MCH (all my classical listening and rock on ripped BR is in MCH), and my only regret it lack of more available content. There is no comparison between MCH well done and 2 channel.

http://forum.audiogon.com/cgi-bin/fr.pl?vhome&1285196540

Oh definitely. I read Kal's posts keenly. And yours and Brucemck2 too. I just wish he (Kal) would do some research on Auro 3d with the resources he has. I definitely felt a big plus on the Auro over MCH, the same that an MCH lover will feel over 2-ch. It adds that whole extra dimension without which the sound seems flatter. Similar to what will happen when you switch off MCH and just play on your two channels.