Audiophiles Who Don't Trust Their Ears...

[Andre Marc]

I think an interesting topic is Audiophiles who do not have confidence in their ability to hear.

This is NOT, I repeat NOT, about having "golden ears" or being a "gifted listener" or any such lofty nonsense.

It is about the ability to trust your experience, your perceptions, and what your ears are sending to your brain.

So many here want to see measurements to "back up" what they have heard, and many also seek approval from
others in the hobby to justify their purchases.

Maybe I am just out there, but I still own the same amps, speakers, and cables I bought 7 years ago. The only things that have changed
are my digital sources.

I have absolute confidence in my ability to believe what I am hearing. Anybody else?

 

[Andre Marc]

Faith is belief without evidence. Do you know that your ears ignore the first echos under about 24milliseconds....flat out your brain ignores them. I started a thread similar to this but the tone of the forum at the time allowed hypsters to derail the thread. Hopefully this thread can mature.

Yes, I believe that I surely don't hear what I think I hear, but I can prefer some things I think I hear. I surely know that I don't "hear" as well as measurements do.

Hmmm...it seems you are straddling both sides of the fence here. There is no hedging. Either you trust your ears or not.

 

[amirm]

Hmmm...it seems you are straddling both sides of the fence here. There is no hedging. Either you trust your ears or not.

Oh, hedging most definitely is allowed. Who says it isn't?

 

[Andre Marc]

Oh, hedging most definitely is allowed. Who says it isn't?

Hedging is for wimps.

 

[amirm]

Hedging is for wimps.

 

[spiritofmusic]

An excellent topic.
I pretty much trust what I hear, and what I like/don't like.
Evidenced by pretty much turning down as much stuff as stuff I keep.
However there have been a couple of major occasions where those visititing have hated my sound and I've argued the opposite, which has led to me taking their advice and finding solutions which go on to enhance my listening enjoyment.
The first was 5 years ago, where a guy could not wait to leave my room, badgered me into going balanced power, I complied reluctantly, and I've never looked back, and he loves my sound now.
The other is more recently, a chap who just sits stony faced here, hates my room acoustics, again pretty much pushed me into making a major change, this time GIKs.
Interestingly I can make out a pretty substantial difference, he feels there is some impvt but feels I need to scale back a bit, however is overall still unmoved by my sound, the GIKs in hindsight being a mere sticking plaster for a sickly presentation.
Everything else has been trial and error, on the basis of research on my part, and I feel I do fully trust my ears.
Case in point is the most recent skeptic who pushed GIKs, and remains perplexed by my choices, but after a period of self doubt regarding his criticisms, now none remains. I maintain serenity and full belief in myself and ability to know what works for me, while still able to accept reasonable, argued criticisms.
I feel he's the one who now needs advice himself .

 

[Andre Marc]

An excellent topic.
I pretty much trust what I hear, and what I like/don't like.
Evidenced by pretty much turning down as much stuff as stuff I keep.
However there have been a couple of major occasions where those visititing have hated my sound and I've argued the opposite, which has led to me taking their advice and finding solutions which go on to enhance my listening enjoyment.
The first was 5 years ago, where a guy could not wait to leave my room, badgered me into going balanced power, I complied reluctantly, and I've never looked back, and he loves my sound now.
The other is more recently, a chap who just sits stony faced here, hates my room acoustics, again pretty much pushed me into making a major change, this time GIKs.
Interestingly I can make out a pretty substantial difference, he feels there is some impvt but feels I need to scale back a bit, however is overall still unmoved by my sound, the GIKs in hindsight being a mere sticking plaster for a sickly presentation.
Everything else has been trial and error, on the basis of research on my part, and I feel I do fully trust my ears.
Case in point is the most recent skeptic who pushed GIKs, and remains perplexed by my choices, but after a period of self doubt regarding his criticisms, now none remains. I maintain serenity and full belief in myself and ability to know what works for me, while still able to accept reasonable, argued criticisms.
I feel he's the one who now needs advice himself .

You bring up an excellent point..knowing what you like..trusting what you hear..BUT being open to suggestions and observations that you may not agree with initially.

 

[the sound of Tao]

Bit of faith, bit of doubt, some occasional measurement and the less occasional night of having mates around over a few drinks to helpfully point out just where you are actually missing the bleedin obvious. All good and all good fun. But when the purpose and all the goodness is ultimately in the listening if you find you can't just put some reasonable value in what you can actually hear then the doubt trumps the faith and perhaps the satisfaction is more theory than experience.

 

[Gregadd]

I suppose it depends on what you mean by trust. I certainly cannot trust my ears to be in alignment with traditional ideas about measurements.


Edit: Of course faith involves a future event.That is a belief in something that will happen.

 

[treitz3]

I always trust my ears. They never lie.

Tom

 

[DaveyF]

I think an interesting topic is Audiophiles who do not have confidence in their ability to hear.

This is NOT, I repeat NOT, about having "golden ears" or being a "gifted listener" or any such lofty nonsense.

It is about the ability to trust your experience, your perceptions, and what your ears are sending to your brain.

So many here want to see measurements to "back up" what they have heard, and many also seek approval from
others in the hobby to justify their purchases.

Maybe I am just out there, but I still own the same amps, speakers, and cables I bought 7 years ago. The only things that have changed
are my digital sources.

I have absolute confidence in my ability to believe what I am hearing. Anybody else?

Andre, I'm with you 100% on this one.

As a former pro musician, I know that my ears are to be trusted...and that I have trained them to listen to what a) the other musicians are doing and b) what is the most musical sound that I can achieve.
When listing to musician's performing in a 'live' event, I know that this is the ultimate goal of my home system. IF...a very BIG IF, I can get anywhere near the sound of the musicians and the tonality that the
instruments portray in the 'live' setting, then I am getting close. I do suspect that playing an instrument does give one a good "understanding" of what that instrument should sound like...particularly if it is an acoustic instrument.
I actually feel sorry for those listeners who have never really experienced what an instrument in a 'live' setting sounds like ( by actually picking it up and listening to a note that it produces, or being close enough to it to hear same); no wonder they are constantly looking for re-enforcement of their understanding of that sound.

One other minor point...or perhaps not so minor...
Measurements are designed to relate as closely as possible to what we hear 'live'...question is, who's doing the 'live' listening? IMHO, we all do hear a little differently and we all seem to attach various connotations to what we hear. With that said, I do think that if a piece of music sounds great to our ears and is reproduced that way, the fact that measurements are showing something different would lead one to believe that we are not yet measuring what is that important to our ear/brain interface. BTW, I never saw too many musicians in the studio or elsewhere who are too concerned about the
way their piece of music measured...engineers, yes--- musicians, not so much. It either got our feet tapping or it didn't. Perhaps that is what it's all about at the end of the day. As a good musician friend used to say..."you either got mojo or you ain't!"

 

[Groucho]

If a professional wine taster said "I always trust my ability to taste" I would be sceptical if they had just eaten a hot curry or eaten an extra strong mint.

 

[Diapason]

I trust my ears, and they're the final arbiter of all decisions I made in the audio world, but I also try to be aware of the lengths my brain will go to try to fool me.

That goes for all situations, btw, not just hifi. After all, I apparently mishear what my wife says to me on a regular basis.

 

[bonzo75]

There is short-term trusting of ears and long-term

Short-term is during A/B or a bit longer auditions. You should trust your ears, and take additional advice, where someone goes but did you hear/not hear that? That allows you to again check for something you might have missed out, but finally, it should be your call.

Over the long term, it helps to improve one's ears regardless of where they are now by taking advice of people who have different experiences. If you are not into DSP, take the advice of Amir, Dallasjustice, or Marty, and see if you change your perceptions. Vice versa, Amir might want to check his ears by going to ddk's place.

Those who are convinced their speaker is THE speaker, should try some radically different designs. Cone speaker lovers should audition different horns and planars, instead of lazily gong to a live show, listening to a badly set up planar, and saying never again.

As a rule, if someone has any cast iron principles that only such a design works, he must be on the wrong track, and would do better to check his ears by opening up the mind.

Keep going to live shows and calibrate your tastes.

So, over the long term, it is improving your ears, from wherever they are now.

 

[spiritofmusic]

Can't disagree w/too much there Bonzo. I've done a little to listen to different technologies over the years, and while many really shine and melt my heart eg Cessaro Liszts and AG Duos/Trios horns, I still return to my 'ol faithful Zu's as the best all 'rounders for what works in my world/perception. Others I am impressed with, but they don't stir me, like ML SL3's, Scripts and Prodigies. Others leave me cold like Rockport Hyperions.
The fortuitous exposure to Zus which I could easily have missed had I not got past my skepticism of full range drivers-zero x'over-high efficiency topologies remains THE pivotal moment in why I'm beyond happy today, esp because it got me to immerse myself in the SET world too, which I would absolutely never have done had I stuck w/my previous ProAcs.
Choices I would never have made had I not been pushed firmly in their direction, but have firmly proved their worth like balanced power and room treatment panels, hopefully means I maintain at least a partially open mind.
Interesting options like Datasat Auro 3D 12.4 mch demo is an experience I'm very glad I underwent, and I can very much see the greatness of an alternative reality of an all-digital corrected and uber neutral setup, but it's a flavour that I didn't find as essential as I thought I might.

I've even made a bigger effort to go to more live classical, and a fantastic new thrill it's been, all upside. But I conclude more than ever that the aspiration to replicate those dynamics at home remains a bit elusive, and I honestly listen to the same music the following AM on lp, and don't feel I'm missing out w/my sound.

So, I've made efforts to listen to different topologies in spkrs and amps, I've reached out to dsp, and I've got a broader experience live of classical, and jazz.

And despite some previous insecurities when my sound is criticised for missing information, I trust my ears, and my ears alone. And feel good about that.

 

[bonzo75]

Very easy to feel good about trusting your own convictions. Can you please list all classical live shows you have been to in the last 5 years? I can list the ones you have been to, because there were 4 or 5, all happening in a short burst earlier this year, after which you decided you were happy with the sound you already had. Amazing you were already on the right journey. If I were you, I would go to classical live shows for a year (after which it would be hard to stop like you did), and am sure my taste would change from what it was before. I guess it's natural.

Not to mention your positive experience with the Datasat in the worst possible room actually means you liked it a lot, and you should pursue a few more, but that is a lot of effort. Better to upgrade grounding, cables, and preamp in the current system.

 

[Fiddle Faddle]

I used to trust my ears in the old days. Then in recent years I came to stop trusting them as I would hear the same test track over and over again and each time it would sound different than the last. I thought how is this possible given that it is the exact same track played on the exact same system.

Then I decided to do an experiment. As I was not trusting my ears, I decided to digitally record via the line output of my pre-amp every time I played this test track - the one that had been sounding different to me each time I played it. And what do I discover? The sound is actually different each and every time when I then played each of the digitally recorded tracks in one session, one after the other. Each time that track played (the one I recorded from the outputs), the sound changed a bit - sometimes slightly different, sometimes significantly different.

I mulled over why this was the case for months. I then realised it was a combination of two things. The amount of warm-up time the system had been given and the quality of the electricity coming into my house. So then I began another experiment. Giving the system a very precise warm-up routine - 20 minutes from cold at "idle", playing no music - just turned on, followed by 10 minutes playing actual music, but not me listening to it. And doing this at precisely 1.00 am each night. Then the tracks always sounded exactly the same when I did go to listen.

Based on that, yes, I now trust my ears more than ever - more so than actual equipment! And when things sound different, it isn't me, it isn't my mode, it's purely down to how warmed up the system is and what time of day I use it.

I know some people say we should not trust our ears but in my experience, I now actually trust them more than anything.

 

[Billy Shears]

Ked you really should read Floyd Toole's , 'Sound Reproduction' ,live music is one thing, its reproduction something else.
Unsighted comparisons are useful to remove sighted bias, personally I prefer large and measurable improvements.
Keith.

I find it fascinating that people who trust measurements more than their own experience accuse pure listeners of being biased when in thruth having a fixed idea of what something can or can not be will prevent you from ever having any experience that contradicts this belief.

 

[JackD201]

If I can trust my ears enough to help keep me from getting run over, I sure as heck trust them enough to get me through something as trivial by comparison as a hobby.

Bigger question is whether people really know for certain what they like.

 

[Johnny Vinyl]

If I can trust my ears enough to help keep me from getting run over, I sure as heck trust them enough to get me through something as trivial by comparison as a hobby.

Bigger question is whether people really know for certain what they like.

+1. If I look at the improvements I've made in the last few years, I can say without hesitation that my ears haven't failed me.